Takedowns without much control time shouldn't get you the round

[Dr. Rose]

Talking about special rules like Gracie vs Saku... unlimited number of 15 minutes rounds.

Gotcha. I figured I was missing something. Cheers.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

If all else is equal, then they absolutely should win the round

 

[RonDante]

Where does it stop though? If a takedown doesn't score because it doesn't lead to anything fight ending, why is holding the centre of the ring / forward advancement score? Why does an unsuccessful guillotine score? Why does holding someone against the cage score? Why does holding someone at bay with a few jabs score? Why does sitting with back control doing a bit of hand wrestling score?

If you use a technique within the rules that your opponent has been unsuccessful in defending against and it presents a chance of being in a dominant or fight ending position for a time (even if unsuccessfully) it should score

I don't think it should be a significant/decisive criteria but if everything is more or less even then it's hard to argue against someone being unable to stop another man from lifting him off his feet and dumping him onto the ground as being in a lesser position score wise

Successful manoeuvre Vs unsuccessful defence is a point scoring advantage whether it's fun or exciting or not

holding the centre of the cate and pushing someone against the fence is the least important thing to score, fighting area control, scored only after effective striking/grappling which is first, and effective aggression, which is second.

an unsuccessful guillotine is coming close to ending the fight

jabbing someone is effective striking

sitting with back control is a dominant grappling position, assuming you mean with a body lock like aljo and not like evloev to Allen

 

[RonDante]

Cruz Dillashaw is the best example of ineffective takedowns winning a belt.

Iirc 5 tds for a total of 15 seconds control time and no strikes.

Except they were in extremely close stand up rounds, and they still score a small amount which would be enough to swing the round slightly

 

[Deleted member 110072]

To me a takedown which doesnt lead to much is probably equivalent of a fighter being slightly ontop of the standup for a short period.

So say someone gets a takedown, gets 10-15 secs of control but lands nothing and the opponent stands back up, thats about the same as if they had been landing a few not very hard jabs and lowkicks in the same spell, they are "winning" but it shouldn't be enough to decide a round unless its VERY close.

 

[Taric]

MMA when the old 2003 NJ rules are in play, like they were for 297.

d. judges shall evaluate mixed martial arts techniques, such as effective striking, effective grappling, control of the fighting area, effective aggressiveness and defense
h. fighting area control is judged by determining who is dictating the pace, location and position of the bout. Examples of factors to consider are countering a grappler‘s attempt at takedown by remaining standing and legally striking

https://www.nj.gov/oag/sacb/docs/Amateur-Mixed-Martial-Arts-New-Jersey-effective-2022-0418.pdf

"Fighting area control is judged by determining who is dictating the pace, location and
position of the bout. Examples of factors to consider are countering a grappler's attempt
at takedown by remaining standing and legally striking; taking down an opponent to
force a ground fight; creating threatening submission attempts, passing the guard to
achieve mount, and creating striking opportunities.

Effective defense means avoiding being struck, taken down or reversed while
countering with offensive attacks."

This is the entirety of the section of the judging criteria that you attempted to quote... nice try only doing a portion of it to fit your narrative.

It doesn't say "effective defense means avoiding being struck, taken down or reversed in lieu of countering with offensive attacks. It says while, which means the second part of the sentence is required to score points.

What scores in that rule set is the same as any other rule set. If a defensive maneuver turns into an offensive maneuver, you are now scoring points... just like literally every sport in the history of existence.

 

[the ambush]

To me a takedown which doesnt lead to much is probably equivalent of a fighter being slightly ontop of the standup for a short period.

So say someone gets a takedown, gets 10-15 secs of control but lands nothing and the opponent stands back up, thats about the same as if they had been landing a few not very hard jabs and lowkicks in the same spell, they are "winning" but it shouldn't be enough to decide a round unless its VERY close.

I actually never liked how takedowns and clinch work were graded in the UFC. There have been close fights decided by a fighter landing more takedowns yet doing nothing with the takedowns. Mounting zero offense is still mounting zero offense, at least that's the way I always viewed it. Whether it's in the stand-up, clinch, or on the mat. Octagon control and being in the center also counts as effective offense

 

[Deleted member 110072]

I actually never liked how takedowns and clinch work were graded in the UFC. There have been close fights decided by a fighter landing more takedowns yet doing nothing with the takedowns. Mounting zero offense is still mounting zero offense, at least that's the way I always viewed it. Whether it's in the stand-up, clinch, or on the mat. Octagon control and being in the center also counts as effective offense

Top position is arguably more advantageous so I think its worth "something" but that something isnt very much.

I think US judging criteria really ended up being set up in an era of US wrestlers trying to LnP non US strikers.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

The official judging criteria literally spells out that you get zero credit for "control." (unless all striking & grappling are exactly equal)

You get a credit for teh TD only. (about teh equivalent of a good solid strike) Then you can add to your judging credits by advancing position, sub attempt & striking. So if someone is just laying on top for 4 minutes without any of those things, all they get a judging credit for is teh TD.

The truth though is that an alarming number of judges used to ignore that. They're getting better, but some still do it.

 

[michi972]

Actually most of the short Control time is actually trying to get control, nit the actual control

 

[Joshuaace]

https://www.nj.gov/oag/sacb/docs/Amateur-Mixed-Martial-Arts-New-Jersey-effective-2022-0418.pdf

That is the "new" NJ rules adopted in 2022. That may well be the version of the rules they were using, but I haven't been able to confirm it. To the best of my knowledge, They were using the NJ rules from 2003, which were adopted by the Province of Ontario on February 18, 2023. Less than a year ago.

https://www.ontario.ca/page/combat-sports-professional-mixed-martial-arts-rules

If you can find a source where Ontario adopted a more current version of the NJ rules than this, I'll gladly accept it as the rules that governed the event. Until then, this definition isn't part of the rule set in play for that event.

Effective defense means avoiding being struck, taken down or reversed while
countering with offensive attacks."

There were a lot of ambiguities in the NJ rule set, including the absence of important definitions....like "effective defense." I agree that the inclusion of that definition does appear to be meant to minimize scoring defense. But if it's purpose was to ommit defense as a scoring criteria entirely, they would have just removed the phrase "effective defense" from the judging criteria completely. But regardless of what I think SHOULD have been included in the rules, It's not my place to include definitions that aren't in the written rules, and that definition was not included in the version of rules adopted by Onario, CA.

This is the entirety of the section of the judging criteria that you attempted to quote... nice try only doing a portion of it to fit your narrative.

I quoted from the link I posted. Which to the best of my knowledge DOES NOT contain a definition for "effective defense" but does list defense as judging criteria to be considered. Me posting the link to the rules they actually used in Toronto for 297 is me attempting to control a narrative? lol, okay.

So we are back to where we started when I pointed out that defense was scored in MMA, under the old 2003 NJ rules(not the revised 2022 NJ rules you posted)

 

[Taric]

That is the "new" NJ rules adopted in 2022. That may well be the version of the rules they were using, but I haven't been able to confirm it. To the best of my knowledge, They were using the NJ rules from 2003

https://www.bcathleticcommission.ca/bcac_files/MMA Unified Rules of Conduct-State Athletic Control Board.pdf

"LAW AND PUBLIC SAFETY
STATE ATHLETIC CONTROL BOARD
Mixed Martial Arts Unified Rules of Conduct
Additional Mixed Martial Arts Rules
Proposed New Rules: N.J.A.C. 13:46-24A and 24B
Proposed Amendment: N.J.A.C. 13:46-4.25
Authorized By: State Athletic Control Board, Gerard Gormley, Chairman; Larry Hazzard, Sr.,
Commissioner
Authority: N.J.S.A. 5:2A-4, 7, and 8(b)
Calendar Reference: See Summary below for explanation of exception to calendar requirement.
Proposal Number: PRN 2002-314
Submit comments by November 2, 2002 to:

(g) Fighting area control is judged by determining who is dictating the pace, location and position of the
bout. Examples of factors to consider are countering a grappler’s attempt at takedown by remaining
standing and legally striking ; taking down an opponent to force a ground fight; creating threatening
submission attempts, passing the guard to achieve mount, and creating striking opportunities.

(i) Effective defense means avoiding being struck, taken down or reversed while countering with
offensive attacks."


The 2003 and 2023 NJAC judging criteria are literally the same. I've just given you both of the official websites from those time periods. Not just the quotes, but the actual website links to verify what I've said is accurate.

https://www.ontario.ca/page/combat-sports-professional-mixed-martial-arts-rules

If you can find a source where Ontario adopted a more current version of the NJ rules than this, I'll gladly accept it as the rules that governed the event. Until then, this definition isn't part of the rule set in play for that event.

...

13:46-24A.13 Judging​

1. fighting area control is judged by determining who is dictating the pace, location and position of the bout. Examples of factors to consider are countering a grappler‘s attempt at takedown by remaining standing and legally striking; taking down an opponent to force a ground fight; creating threatening submission attempts; passing the guard to achieve mount; and creating striking opportunities
2. effective defense means avoiding being struck, taken down or reversed while countering with offensive attacks

The Ontario link you just provided has the EXACT SAME language from NJAC 2022... the exact same.

You have flat out made this up in your own head. What you're talking about literally doesn't exist anywhere, including the very link you provided saying that it does.

At least fact check the things you are using as your evidence, good lord.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

I'm good with the fact that takedowns should have an impact on judge scoring. It's not easy to execute, it's energy taxing, and there's no guaranteed success.

However, there needs to be at least some time spent on the ground. If your opponent gets up almost immediatly, it shouldn't steal the round.

Reminds me of Phil Davis VS machida where last seconds takedowns won Phil the fight with all the controversy

Anyway, DDP won with that

The thing with the Strickland vs DDP fight is that the takedowns did lead to DDP landing good strikes almost every time Strickland got up. I think a lot of people bitching about the takedowns missed the strikes that DDP was landing on him while he was getting up.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

You have to do something with a takedown to get points from a takedown

https://www.abcboxing.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/unified-rules-mma-2019.pdf

View attachment 1025633

You're not reading that section correctly. Saying something scores moreso than something else doesn't mean that the other thing doesn't score, it just means it doesn't score as much. So the takedowns DDP got didn't score as much as the strikes he landed on Strickland when he was getting up. Takedowns do score just not as much as strikes or submission attempts.

 

[VonSupervillain]

Stuffing takedowns should also count

If fighter A throws the only strikes in a fight (in which there is no grappling) and fighter B blocks or avoids every single strike but throws none of their own, who should win the fight?

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

I don’t know about tds with no ground control but I’ve always felt that if fighters gain points for successful tds then fighters should also gain points for stuffing td attempts.

No, defense is already factored, it reduces how much your opponent's offense scores. If defense was scored in and of itself a fighter could win a fight with no offense which is dumb as hell.

 

[Mcnugget]

I think it can break a tie

 

[Mcnugget]

If fighter A throws the only strikes in a fight (in which there is no grappling) and fighter B blocks or avoids every single strike but throws none of their own, who should win the fight?

;0

 

[Mcnugget]

he didnt win the fight based on takedowns, he won the fight on effective aggression and takedowns were encompassed within that factoring. he was controlling where the action took place.

people also disregard the heavy body shots ddp landed because they arent as glorified as headshots.

I look at it liek this. Knowing what we know. Which fighter would you rather be? Ddp or Sean.

Based on what I saw I would feel more comfortable going into a fight being ddp

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

Stuffing takedowns should also count

No, defense is already factored, it reduces how much your opponents offense scores. It doesn't score in and of itself and the reason why is cause if it were scored you could have a fighter that does nothing but defend and win which would be really stupid. Only offense scores.

Takedowns are offense and if your talking about the Strickland vs DDP fight he landed good shots on Strickland while he was getting up from almost every takedown.