Take downs in bjj or lack of..

[dsdoubled]

This is the real answer. There's finite time in the day, the only people who are extremely good both standing and on the ground have either trained for a very long time or are professionals who train all the time and can afford to spend enough time on both takedowns and ground grappling to be very good at both. If TS is really interested in the standing game and less so on the ground game that's fine, but he should go do Judo or wrestle instead of complaining about BJJ not having enough TD work.

Case in point, think about fighters in the UFC or any fighters competing in the top promotions over the years. How many fighters have shown the ability to clinch fight, execute takedowns, submit/sweep/escape from bottom, submit/control from top, all at a very high level? Damian Maia? BJ Penn? GSP was never really on his back but was likely very good from there. Mayhem Miller was actually quite solid everywhere. Jacare? Jake Shields? There haven't been many who got to show that they were very good at all of it.

 

[Zankou]

This is the real answer. There's finite time in the day, the only people who are extremely good both standing and on the ground have either trained for a very long time or are professionals who train all the time and can afford to spend enough time on both takedowns and ground grappling to be very good at both. If TS is really interested in the standing game and less so on the ground game that's fine, but he should go do Judo or wrestle instead of complaining about BJJ not having enough TD work.

Totally agree, though IMO it is not acceptable to train standing skills so infrequently that your guys lack the ability to hit basic TDs against untrained opponents.

Basic competence should be a minimal goal. Elite skills is totally unrealistic.

 

[Foppa21]

Rules dictate behavior. You're competing in BJJ? You need to play by the rules and the scoring system. We work our takedowns at my gym but sometimes you're going to face someone that you know is way better than you standing. There's not point fighting the inevitable... You can pull guard and start 0-0. You can fight it and get taken down and start 0-2 or you can run and get taken down in the last minute and be 0-2 with one minute to go.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

Rules dictate behavior. You're competing in BJJ? You need to play by the rules and the scoring system. We work our takedowns at my gym but sometimes you're going to face someone that you know is way better than you standing. There's not point fighting the inevitable... You can pull guard and start 0-0. You can fight it and get taken down and start 0-2 or you can run and get taken down in the last minute and be 0-2 with one minute to go.

Having a better standup game will make your guard pulls more effective; it helps you to create better openings for a guard pull, and it makes your opponent forget about defending the guard pull.

 

[yetanother]

In fact.. there are a gigantic chunk of high school wrestling coaches, who did not wrestle in college.. that I’d pick to safely teach wrestling to Bjj people.. over Damien Maia

Do you have any experience with how Damian Maia teaches wrestling stuff?

 

[mataleaos]

Having a better standup game will make your guard pulls more effective; it helps you to create better openings for a guard pull, and it makes your opponent forget about defending the guard pull.

Yeah totally and I would argue that you probably can’t even pull guard effectively without some decent stand up. Not against someone that knows what they’re doing. People will pass you during your pull.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Totally agree, though IMO it is not acceptable to train standing skills so infrequently that your guys lack the ability to hit basic TDs against untrained opponents.

Basic competence should be a minimal goal. Elite skills is totally unrealistic.

Personally, the way I train people for standup is to get a strong depth of skill in a very limited number of techniques. I don't expect them to be world beaters, but I try to give them a few setups they can go back to and enough time to drill their small repertoire so that they can attack fluidly, knowing that if they compete against a really experienced standup grappler who can shut down their main setups that they won't have much to fall back on. But at least they'll have a decent single, double, and ankle pick and will have some experience clinch grappling and know how to finish from a body lock.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Case in point, think about fighters in the UFC or any fighters competing in the top promotions over the years. How many fighters have shown the ability to clinch fight, execute takedowns, submit/sweep/escape from bottom, submit/control from top, all at a very high level? Damian Maia? BJ Penn? GSP was never really on his back but was likely very good from there. Mayhem Miller was actually quite solid everywhere. Jacare? Jake Shields? There haven't been many who got to show that they were very good at all of it.

Very few guys for sure, though I'd argue that you need much less of a repertoire in MMA than in pure grappling (on the ground or standing), what's more important is being able to bridge your striking and grappling, use your striking to set up your takedowns, and just generally be able to control the direction of the fight so that you're able to use your grappling in the first place. Of those guys, I'd say only Maia, GSP, and Shields have been able to make consistent use of their grappling against top competition, most of the others never really got good at getting into position to do so in the first place. The guys who generally use grappling most effectively are top control ground and pound wrestlers like Tito Ortiz back in the day or Khabib now.

 

[jack36767]

Do you have any experience with how Damian Maia teaches wrestling stuff?

I’ve watched several clinics, i also have seen his style of wrestling. It’s not a diss, I’m talking about how veteran coaches who have dealt with kids who are completely not athletic and soft, to nationally ranked freak athletes, taught in mma gyms with success before etc.

I’m talking about actual coaches not the former college guy many Bjj gyms bring in. It’s not a diss..

 

[dsdoubled]

I’ve watched several clinics, i also have seen his style of wrestling. It’s not a diss, I’m talking about how veteran coaches who have dealt with kids who are completely not athletic and soft, to nationally ranked freak athletes, taught in mma gyms with success before etc.

I’m talking about actual coaches not the former college guy many Bjj gyms bring in. It’s not a diss..

Maybe I missed some of this conversation but I wanted to ask why. I mean, I get why a longtime wrestling coach who has been teaching kids and all levels of wrestlers for many years can be extremely valuable. In fact, look at Jacob Harmon, a former division I wrestler who has been coaching kids in California for many years. He links up with Babalu, they start a wrestling Team for MMAers, and all the sudden he is coaching RDA and a few other fighters who are showing really good solid wrestling. If you can teach kids you can teach anyone.

But Damian Maia is a lifelong grappler who has been teaching Bjj for many years. He has also spent quite a few years training with and being trained by some fantastic wrestlers and wrestling coaches. Wouldn't he be a perfect guy to teach Bjjers to wrestle?

 

[jack36767]

Maybe I missed some of this conversation but I wanted to ask why. I mean, I get why a longtime wrestling coach who has been teaching kids and all levels of wrestlers for many years can be extremely valuable. In fact, look at Jacob Harmon, a former division I wrestler who has been coaching kids in California for many years. He links up with Babalu, they start a wrestling Team for MMAers, and all the sudden he is coaching RDA and a few other fighters who are showing really good solid wrestling. If you can teach kids you can teach anyone.

But Damian Maia is a lifelong grappler who has been teaching Bjj for many years. He has also spent quite a few years training with and being trained by some fantastic wrestlers and wrestling coaches. Wouldn't he be a perfect guy to teach Bjjers to wrestle?

Because while he’s good, I have seen better teaching of it. It’s not a diss on Maia, more a comment to how uneven wrestling coaching can be.

 

[dsdoubled]

Because while he’s good, I have seen better teaching of it. It’s not a diss on Maia, more a comment to how uneven wrestling coaching can be.

Yeah I hear ya, I understand youre not dissing him, Im just surprised. He's such an intelligent guy with a ton of experience and a successful coaching career, Id expect him to be a very good wrestling coach.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Yeah I hear ya, I understand youre not dissing him, Im just surprised. He's such an intelligent guy with a ton of experience and a successful coaching career, Id expect him to be a very good wrestling coach.

It's important to remember too that Maia learned to wrestle specifically for MMA. He wasn't a very impressive standup guy during his BJJ career, or frankly his early MMA career. He'd probably be a decent person to teach someone how to wrestle for MMA and how to connect MMA wrestling to BJJ, but he's not the first person I'd pick to teach wrestling specifically for submission grappling. He relies on the cage a great deal, and a lot of what he does in terms of transitioning back and forth between singles and half guard works a lot better when someone is trying to punch you (and thus creating a lot of space) than it does in pure grappling.

 

[dsdoubled]

It's important to remember too that Maia learned to wrestle specifically for MMA. He wasn't a very impressive standup guy during his BJJ career, or frankly his early MMA career. He'd probably be a decent person to teach someone how to wrestle for MMA and how to connect MMA wrestling to BJJ, but he's not the first person I'd pick to teach wrestling specifically for submission grappling. He relies on the cage a great deal, and a lot of what he does in terms of transitioning back and forth between singles and half guard works a lot better when someone is trying to punch you (and thus creating a lot of space) than it does in pure grappling.

These are great points, but I guess what stands out to me when you say he learned to wrestle specifically for MMA is that he spent a whole lot of time wrestling with guys who are traditional wrestlers. Guys with little or no connection to MMA. That makes me think he learned wrestling and adapted it to MMA through his own applications and concepts.

 

[Uchi Mata]

These are great points, but I guess what stands out to me when you say he learned to wrestle specifically for MMA is that he spent a whole lot of time wrestling with guys who are traditional wrestlers. Guys with little or no connection to MMA. That makes me think he learned wrestling and adapted it to MMA through his own applications and concepts.

I imagine that's true, and it's part of the reason I don't assume he'd be a great wrestling coach for submission grappling. Because he started learning to wrestle in earnest after he was already a very skilled MMA fighter, I suspect he focused his efforts on what he knew would translate well to the cage. I can tell you from personal experience that what translates well to the cage is very different from what translates well to submission grappling. You take something really basic like a snap down: super useful move for sub grappling, guys use lower wrestling stances, and it sets up the guillotine/front headlock series. For MMA? Not useful at all because guys are never that bent over. Snapping down someone in MMA basically isn't going to happen. Another example would be something like working from an over/under clinch. Really important in MMA, that sort of upright Greco style clinch happens all the time (again, because of the stances and the fact that you're closing distance after striking). When was the last time you saw anyone working that sort of clinch in submission grappling? The format just doesn't lend itself well to that sort of engagement. I suspect the wrestling skill set Demian Maia has is not well aligned with what you'd want for sub grappling, that's all.

 

[dsdoubled]

I imagine that's true, and it's part of the reason I don't assume he'd be a great wrestling coach for submission grappling. Because he started learning to wrestle in earnest after he was already a very skilled MMA fighter, I suspect he focused his efforts on what he knew would translate well to the cage. I can tell you from personal experience that what translates well to the cage is very different from what translates well to submission grappling. You take something really basic like a snap down: super useful move for sub grappling, guys use lower wrestling stances, and it sets up the guillotine/front headlock series. For MMA? Not useful at all because guys are never that bent over. Snapping down someone in MMA basically isn't going to happen. Another example would be something like working from an over/under clinch. Really important in MMA, that sort of upright Greco style clinch happens all the time (again, because of the stances and the fact that you're closing distance after striking). When was the last time you saw anyone working that sort of clinch in submission grappling? The format just doesn't lend itself well to that sort of engagement. I suspect the wrestling skill set Demian Maia has is not well aligned with what you'd want for sub grappling, that's all.

Sure. Absolutely. The absence of a cage or wall in the vast majority of sub grappling competitions makes the upper body game quite different. I guess my point is/was, and I don't think you disagree, Damian Maia can be a very good teacher to instruct Bjjers how to wrestle in MMA, but not nearly as much for BJJ/grappling competitions.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

I imagine that's true, and it's part of the reason I don't assume he'd be a great wrestling coach for submission grappling. Because he started learning to wrestle in earnest after he was already a very skilled MMA fighter, I suspect he focused his efforts on what he knew would translate well to the cage. I can tell you from personal experience that what translates well to the cage is very different from what translates well to submission grappling. You take something really basic like a snap down: super useful move for sub grappling, guys use lower wrestling stances, and it sets up the guillotine/front headlock series. For MMA? Not useful at all because guys are never that bent over. Snapping down someone in MMA basically isn't going to happen. Another example would be something like working from an over/under clinch. Really important in MMA, that sort of upright Greco style clinch happens all the time (again, because of the stances and the fact that you're closing distance after striking). When was the last time you saw anyone working that sort of clinch in submission grappling? The format just doesn't lend itself well to that sort of engagement. I suspect the wrestling skill set Demian Maia has is not well aligned with what you'd want for sub grappling, that's all.

Brian Ortega has made the snapdown very effective in MMA, and Tony Ferguson has been effective using the same principle (forcing bad posture then attacking with a choke).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like Maia's success came from mixing good traditional wrestling with his outstanding half guard and back takes. I don't see why that wouldn't transfer to sub grappling as well.

 

[Clinchster]

Typically.....every gym has atleast ONE takedown guy with some form of judo/ wrestling experience. Find this guy, and befriend him. Get together before and after class and drill the hell out of 3 takedowns. Go slow, really feel the motions and your opponents weight. (this is key, once you're able to get a feel for where your opponents weight is at, you can basically improv a lot of your takedowns.) Drill, drill, drill the same move, and to both sides so you can be fluid. Most places i've been seem to let oneself figure out the takedown game. I got lucky and we do full wrestling days where im at.

 

[dsdoubled]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like Maia's success came from mixing good traditional wrestling with his outstanding half guard and back takes. I don't see why that wouldn't transfer to sub grappling as well.

Absolutely. It seemed that when Maia's wrestling was at its best he was either double or single legging his foe in the center of the cage (LaFlare, Magny, etc) or work his way towards the cage, shoot a double, encounter resistance, work for the body lock, and take the back (as you said). So that pretty much sums up what you said.

That was one of the things so impressive about Maia's wrestling and grappling game, he could straight wrestle at a very high level and he could clinch wrestle exceptionally well. He was one of the few guys to chain wrestle but not in the traditional sense, he would chain wrestle in the clinch. He did it extremely well.

I hope he busts out these skills again but man was he on fire for a while. He created the perfect blend of wrestling, Bjj, judo, Greco, etc.

 

[cjd]

After this can we debate gi vs no gi?