Take downs in bjj or lack of..

[trustdoesntrust]

It's hard enough to just learn bjj but I find the lack of take down or stand up grappling is kind of frustrating.

For example. I spar against a pure wrestler. He was able to control me with clinches and take me down easily. The only thing I can do is pull guard but he would explode up . I realize my wrestling or any stand up grappling sucks.

But most bjj gym when they spar it's on the ground. I find this frustrating. Why not focus more on take downs?

I think the gigantic thing most BJJ guys are missing about the standup game is that it can be jiu-jitsu on the feet, rather than just "takedowns." You can guillotine, triangle, armbar, kimura, take the back, drop for a leg, which all chains well with wrestling, judo, and guard pulling. This is actually a real advantage jiu-jitsu has over other grappling arts, but most BJJ guys don't recognize it.

 

[Balto]

Takedowns being more dangerous is a half truth.

The self fulfilling prophecy point is dead on. BJJ guys make it more dangerous than it has to be. I see that all the time. There is a lot we could do to improve safety that we just don't do. That's on us.

That being said, takedowns still are fundamentally more dangerous than groundwork. This is just obvious to anyone who trains any grappling art whatsoever. I only see it debated on the internet. In the real world this isn't even close when talking to Judo and Wrestling guys. The takedown work is more dangerous than the groundwork -- period.

Takedowns inevitably create situations where you're going to have one guy hopping around on one leg while another guy violently attempts to knock him over. Stuff goes wrong there. Inevitably you are going to end up with one full grown adult using another full grown adult's body as a high impact landing pad. Stuff goes wrong there too. That's just reality.

I'm going back to a wrestling camp this year. Last year hardly anyone over 30 went truly live from the feet. When it came time for matwork, the older guys suddenly got more interested in going live again. I don't believe that is a coincidence at all.

 

[Darwinambrosius]

I’ll argue most higher belts period don’t have the experience either, and the culture has not encouraged them to either

I taught my professor (who gave me my purple and brown) how to shoot singles and doubles properly lol

 

[Thrawn33]

Not learning TDs in BJJ is as dumb as not learning Newaza in Judo.

 

[cheachea]

In my opinion It should be Mandatory in every BJJ Gym to watch this video and practice these basic take downs shown in This Video.:

Find a friend and ask him to practice these takedowns OP:

Amazon product ASIN B0018MUU6I

 

[grapplejuice]

This was excellent. Very controlled and efficient. Love how you stay low on the ankle and keep it high. Good stuff.

Takedowns in bjj? What are you, a psycho?

 

[dsdoubled]

I'd say its important to consider what kind of bjjer/bjj school we're talking about AND is MMA a part of the plan. If u have a great bottom game then I suppose wrestling is much less an issue. And if you're going into MMA u may be best served spending time on striking. If you're better on top I can't see any other path to success than developing wrestling skills.

 

[Zankou]

Takedowns in bjj? What are you, a psycho?

Class! And a perfect example of the BJJ takedown setup that i feel works best ... snap down and forward and then take the leg as it comes in to brace. I like kouchi off that, but if you are wrestling it can be a single or ankle pick.

The basic BJJ defensive standing posture sucks against this specific setup, which is why it works so well.

 

[Cash Bill 52]

Class! And a perfect example of the BJJ takedown setup that i feel works best ... snap down and forward and then take the leg as it comes in to brace. I like kouchi off that, but if you are wrestling it can be a single or ankle pick.

The basic BJJ defensive standing posture sucks against this specific setup, which is why it works so well.

Thanks. We worked on that takedown in class one week and I drilled it a lot before the tournament. I like it when it works out that way. Most of my takedowns come off single legs. I like arm and collar drags to singles as well.
This also works as a fake guard pull. They expect the pull and then I snatch the leg. I can also pull guard off the fake single leg.
I lucked out that the camera had the right angle!

 

[Evenflow80]

New gym i am at has every roll start standing, every single role. I have mixed feelings about it but so far no injuries and my takedowns have gotten better.

I wish all bjj gyms would do that but truth be told I understand why they don't. Injuries often mean students quitting and that's loss of precious income

 

[MaxMMA]

These bjj tournys need to start awarding advantage points or something for being in top positions. Anything to discourge people from flopping to their asses.

The one l hate more than that is when you shoot and the person doesnt even try to fight it, and they just lay back as soon as you get in on them.

To me this is completely counter productive for bjj as an Unarmed fighting system. Falling back into a defensive position at the first sign of resistance is garbage IMO.

And i don't care how good you are, full guard, half guard, z guard, x guard, all the guards are call guard for a reason, its a defensive posture against striking. So even if you're a badass at these positions like say Lavoto jr, you're still placing yourself in situations that could be completely avoided with competent wrestling and top game.

Thats not to say you shouldn't get good at several guard systems, but there are black belts that literally only use defensive positions. Its absurd.

 

[jack36767]

I wish all bjj gyms would do that but truth be told I understand why they don't. Injuries often mean students quitting and that's loss of precious income

I understand you are acting hard now.. but those same things you’ve been complaining about is why Middle Aged dads in their 30s still join.. you seem to be losing perspective

 

[asian-glow]

While the "takedown issue" is brought up a lot on the Grappling Central Podcast, for anyone interested, I'm currently listening to an episode with Brian McLaughlin - it's talked about more extensively in this episode than any others I've heard. He makes some interesting points.

Scaling
One interesting point that he seems to be making is that a lot of wrestling is made artificially difficult - that it is harder than it needs to be for people in a bjj/judo context who are not "professionals". McLaughlin (McL) specifically mentions that he brought in a D1 #5 ranked wrestler to teach at his school, but by the end of the week, people dropped like flies because they could not recover from it.

He seems to suggest that wrestling could be "scaled" similar to crossfit - everyone does the same workout, just with varying weights, times, etc. to customize workout intensity. We don't need to beat the shit out of everyone and only deal with those who were strong enough to survive. The people who want that can do it over here and the people who don't can do it over there in the same room.

Tinfoil Time
I am speaking out of my depth but American wrestling seems to fetishize developing mental toughness through physical preparation rather than technical development. American wrestling culture, or at least those who idolize Dan Gable, seems to pride itself on being able to outwork and perhaps by implication, outmuscle and outcondition the competition. This may be what leads many to believe that wrestling is somehow less technical than bjj. For BJJ people, wrestling conjures images of physical specimens of Olympic caliber. It doesn't help that using or even developing strength is often demonized in traditional BJJ culture.

Many media figure heads and even people who don't seem to know anything about wrestling in America say one thing above all about wrestling - mental toughness. What do the Iranians or Russians, both in the know and not, say about their wrestlers?

Based on what I have read, there is less emphasis on physical preparation and more technical development in Europe, particularly in sub-senior level athletes (I'm sure there are exceptions).

This is all to say I wonder if wrestling is perceived differently internationally - as a more technical sport by its practitioners and spectators as opposed to the American grind fest where there seems to be less focus on athletic development and more focus on seeing who makes it out of the meat grinder.

 

[DarkNoise]

Im not sure why you train but you could always learn a striking art. Im not the best at take downs but my though is I will just bang it out in fight until one of us is on ground then use bjj.

 

[mataleaos]

I think the gigantic thing most BJJ guys are missing about the standup game is that it can be jiu-jitsu on the feet, rather than just "takedowns." You can guillotine, triangle, armbar, kimura, take the back, drop for a leg, which all chains well with wrestling, judo, and guard pulling. This is actually a real advantage jiu-jitsu has over other grappling arts, but most BJJ guys don't recognize it.

Yes! Here’s a sweet video with cool examples of what you mentioned.

 

[mataleaos]

I understand you are acting hard now.. but those same things you’ve been complaining about is why Middle Aged dads in their 30s still join.. you seem to be losing perspective

God damn 30s is considered middle aged now???

 

[trustdoesntrust]

While the "takedown issue" is brought up a lot on the Grappling Central Podcast, for anyone interested, I'm currently listening to an episode with Brian McLaughlin - it's talked about more extensively in this episode than any others I've heard. He makes some interesting points.

Scaling
One interesting point that he seems to be making is that a lot of wrestling is made artificially difficult - that it is harder than it needs to be for people in a bjj/judo context who are not "professionals". McLaughlin (McL) specifically mentions that he brought in a D1 #5 ranked wrestler to teach at his school, but by the end of the week, people dropped like flies because they could not recover from it.

He seems to suggest that wrestling could be "scaled" similar to crossfit - everyone does the same workout, just with varying weights, times, etc. to customize workout intensity. We don't need to beat the shit out of everyone and only deal with those who were strong enough to survive. The people who want that can do it over here and the people who don't can do it over there in the same room.

Tinfoil Time
I am speaking out of my depth but American wrestling seems to fetishize developing mental toughness through physical preparation rather than technical development. American wrestling culture, or at least those who idolize Dan Gable, seems to pride itself on being able to outwork and perhaps by implication, outmuscle and outcondition the competition. This may be what leads many to believe that wrestling is somehow less technical than bjj. For BJJ people, wrestling conjures images of physical specimens of Olympic caliber. It doesn't help that using or even developing strength is often demonized in traditional BJJ culture.

Many media figure heads and even people who don't seem to know anything about wrestling in America say one thing above all about wrestling - mental toughness. What do the Iranians or Russians, both in the know and not, say about their wrestlers?

Based on what I have read, there is less emphasis on physical preparation and more technical development in Europe, particularly in sub-senior level athletes (I'm sure there are exceptions).

This is all to say I wonder if wrestling is perceived differently internationally - as a more technical sport by its practitioners and spectators as opposed to the American grind fest where there seems to be less focus on athletic development and more focus on seeing who makes it out of the meat grinder.

I think the solution is to simply teach the standup part of BJJ as an extension of the ground. Too often it's seen through the lens of "takedowns," which basically means a hybrid of bad wrestling and bad judo. I think instructors would be better served focusing first on BJJ-familiar moves like arm drag to the back, snapdown to guillotine, kimura throw, flying triangle, etc, then reverse engineering to teach takedowns that compliment these bjj moves (and BJJ-specific counters to common takedowns). Unlike wrestling and judo, BJJ rules allow for a more methodical engagement on the feet, which in turn allows for BJJ guys to spar standing at a healthy intensity.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

That being said, takedowns still are fundamentally more dangerous than groundwork. This is just obvious to anyone who trains any grappling art whatsoever. I only see it debated on the internet. In the real world this isn't even close when talking to Judo and Wrestling guys. The takedown work is more dangerous than the groundwork -- period.

You see this among older judoka - I know several 60+ judoka who still will do serious randori on the ground. I know of none who will do so standing ... and only one who will even do light randori (as opposed to semi throw for throw).

The same would be true for wrestlers, except I don't know any in their 60's who are active in anything but coaching.

Gravity gets very unforgiving as you age. One thing that hasn't been mentioned though - most judoka and wrestlers start when they're kids or early teens; you're lighter at that age, and made of rubber, so learning to take a fall isn't hard or scary. People tend to start BJJ as late teens/young adults, and that's a harder time to learn (ie weighing 170 pounds vs 70 pounds, falling 5 feet instead of 2 feet, and not having the resilience of a ten year old all make a difference). And the judoka and wrestler, by the time they're fully grown, knows how to land automatically, so its not a big deal until later middle age.

 

[jack36767]

God damn 30s is considered middle aged now???

Sorry lol, “past prime”. My point is, regardless of whether or not me or EvenFlow get along or don’t.. him going from super beginner dad in his 30s with no athletic background. Who often is posting asking for cheerleading or asking if he’ll ever get better or injury risk.. which is normal and props to him for sticking it out..

But suddenly whining about not enough takedowns or thinking he’s hard enough to throw away medals, whine about lack of takedowns at his gym, or not rolling enough or humble bragging about “beating” hobbyists in his gym in their 20s.. asking if he’s too good for masters division etc. seems a lil much. It was as much a comment on the sudden shift as much as anything

Especially because he lives in SoCal, and could go to an Atos or checkmat for a drop in and actually feel what legit competition he clearly thinks he’s a part of now. It’s whatever, I just find the shift somewhat amusing/silly

 

[Uchi Mata]

if one guy concentrates fully on just takedowns and you gotta learn a zillion ground techniques its pretty obv who is gonna be better at takedowns.

Even if BJJ schools got better at them it will never catch up to Judo or wrestling. Just like Judo will never catch up to BJJ newaza.

This is the real answer. There's finite time in the day, the only people who are extremely good both standing and on the ground have either trained for a very long time or are professionals who train all the time and can afford to spend enough time on both takedowns and ground grappling to be very good at both. If TS is really interested in the standing game and less so on the ground game that's fine, but he should go do Judo or wrestle instead of complaining about BJJ not having enough TD work.