Social Sweden. Update: Came in Ferrari - applied for social benefits

[Cuauhtemoc]

Some cultures excel at being middleman . Sometimes this can be a mutually beneficial relationship with the host nation and many times not, atleast from the perspective of the native.

In South East Asia and Africa, the natives have had a contentious and sometimes violent relationship with the Chinese, Indians, Lebanese mercantile class. I can not find the article now, but some years ago I read that natives in Central America dislike how "Turk" middleman merchants are ripping them off. "Turks" being a euphemism for MiddleEastern groups and not actually referring to people from Turkey.

It's because the first Arabs came to Latin America with Ottoman Empire passports and were referred to as Turks. In Brazil there are millions of Christian Arabs, mostly from modern day Syria and Lebanon, and they are called Turks by old people.
One of the problems is that these small middlemen are less needed nowadays and they are usually doing illegal staff like contraband and tax avoidance in greater rates.
Now the Chinese are bringing in rural Chinese slaves too, last week we busted a "chinese karaoke" with 14 chinese slave prostitutes and last year a chinese restaurant kept a chinese boy in a cage.

 

[The ScorpioN]

I always wondered why do people rely on goverment to protect them? (This is not about swedes but generally speaking)

Though im a bit biased since i grew up in a place with no police

I remember child gangs solved their issues themselves.
двор vs двор free for all

 

[MicroBrew]

Well, I like that he is straightforward and in many respects not politically correct, but he has managed quite nicely with the moderates. If he could now be so kind and slim down the beard a little. lol

The Iranians do not shy away from criticizing. And that's something I didn't get an indication of with sunni muslims. At my job we have work training for those who have been away from work for a long time. They have their lockers and changing rooms. Some muslims have made a bad habit to pray in the room, which prevents other participants from coming to the cabinets. They have been told that they cannot do it there, but still they continue. It is like if you talk with kind voice and you step on your toes it doesn´t have any effect.

It made me think of the social in Malmö. We have in recent years employed guards during the reception time. Since most administrators are young newly graduated women, they never have meetings alone, always 2 and 2 and they have been equipped with a panic alarm. They may also undergo further training in how to deal with violent and loud men (yeah this is correct). We Swedes are used to dialogue and low speech, it becomes difficult for a woman to deal with a person who speaks aggressively with the whole body. In another thread, I mentioned that our handlers are rotated all the time, as many quit after a few months of too much stress and screaming in the handset during telephone hours. There is a lot we need to get used to.

I lived in the Arabian Gulf for many years ; so here is my take: MidEastern , Central Asian, Maghrebian and some South Asian Muslim cultures are very hegemonic and patriarchal. MidEastern Christians also tend to be clannish. South East Asian Muslims tend to be easy going.

There are plenty of MidEastern Muslims and Christians and South Asian Muslims who are liberal/progressive and are nice but the dominant cultures in those regions, in general , will walk all over you if they believe they can get away with it. They only respect power. You FennoScandinavians have a reputation for being nice and welcoming, so these very tribal cultures from MidEast, Central and South Asia see you as easy prey.

There are tons of Syrians, Iraqis, Afghans, Pakistanis in Saudi, UAE, Kuwait, Qatar but you never hear them forming grooming gangs or bullying the local Arabs. It's because the local Gulf Arabs are ruthless and don't give a toss about human rights or civil liberties. They will come down hard and ferocious against any expat who dares to step out of line.

 

[315MMAFighter]

Ok. Long post...
Can you tell us more about the Swedish Bikini Team? Photos?

 

[sweede]

They are mostly born here in America to immigrant parents from the Middle East who came for opportunity. But I do have a Muslim ex-girlfriend who’s family left Trinidad following the military coup in the early 1990s. I also know an African American family that converted.

People paint Muslims with a broad brush on this forum, as if they are all similar. They really aren’t any more similar to each other than Christians or Jewish people from different areas of the world. When people talk about “Muslims” as a group, it’s hard to even know who they are referring to. But I think their interactions with Muslims are limited at most, and often non-existent.

It sounds like well-functioning people and that they have also integrated well with religion in their luggage. Anyone could have made friends with that clientele.

Tragically enough, your reality is differnet from what we experience in the big cities. I think at one point I told you that it is easy to blame everything on the politics of our wrongdoing in integrating muslims into our society. Enclaves that are inhabited by religious, but also areas that are sought after to move to. A place where you can keep their former traditions and languages. A place where you feel at home and not in Sweden, where you can live your former society not disturbed by the host nation. The big question should then be. Why move to a country that is the exact opposite of one's own unless war is a reason?

According to Geert Hofstede, Sweden is the country that is furthest from the muslim countries that have as their plan to move to us. It is a match making that may not work together.

Our openness and a desire to be best in the class have created such a good reputation in the third world. A reputation that created curiosity of the good in Sweden. But that has the consequence of concentrating on what you are entitled to. The people who have come in recent years have no idea that they actually have to contribute to the entire Swedish population. The differences in the level of education are probably among the largest in the world and how should one find meaningful work for a 45-year-old man who has 6 years in school in his CV?

That is the main reason why it cracks in our well-functioning country.

I get the feeling that you have no idea what we are facing. I've been blue-eyed for many years, but seen so much in recent years that I can't make it go together and that I can't close my eyes. We have problems, and they are big.

 

[sweede]

I lived in the Arabian Gulf for many years ; so here is my take: MidEastern , Central Asian, Maghrebian and some South Asian Muslim cultures are very hegemonic and patriarchal. MidEastern Christians also tend to be clannish. South East Asian Muslims tend to be easy going.

There are plenty of MidEastern Muslims and Christians and South Asian Muslims who are liberal/progressive and are nice but the dominant cultures in those regions, in general , will walk all over you if they believe they can get away with it. They only respect power. You FennoScandinavians have a reputation for being nice and welcoming, so these very tribal cultures from MidEast, Central and South Asia see you as easy prey.

There are tons of Syrians, Iraqis, Afghans, Pakistanis in Saudi, UAE, Kuwait, Qatar but you never hear them forming grooming gangs or bullying the local Arabs. It's because the local Gulf Arabs are ruthless and don't give a toss about human rights or civil liberties. They will come down hard and ferocious against any expat who dares to step out of line.

Some of the problems can depend on how we communicate. Sweden is a country where you can hold long discussions before you have reached an agreement. Low-key, conflict-scared and hearty dialogue is our way of presenting us.

To then hold talks about the right to extra contributions from someone who speaks with the whole body and is raised with pragmatic values that can only be solved according to the laws of the tribal culture. Yes, it crashes a lot, and not to forget. The interpreter is always present.

If we go back to the participants praying in the dressing room. Every group is there for 3-6 months and is working on carpentry, sewing, cardboard and garden. It can take up to a month before any of the Swedish participants come to us and say that they do not come to their cabinet because they are in the way. One month of patience, where they can wait for several minutes before they can access. Just patience and not taking the conflict we Swedes are good at. But usually it feels like being trampled on because you are kind.

The Swedish participant has either come to us and told us or some of them have tried to explain that they must come to their cabinet, and most often they have created conflict when the muslim man has become angry because he does not respect his holy ritual. So now that the participants start, we mention if this would happen so come to us right away. Otherwise, the believers from day 1 will find out that they can pray in the yoga room.

 

[Cole train]

I remember child gangs solved their issues themselves.
двор vs двор free for all

Well thats just kids being kids, this is a bit different .

That being said if talking mutual combat we had village vs village lol

And if talking saint petersburg we had russians vs ukraine vs kavkaz/central asians vs one crazy finn lmao

 

[tonysmasseuse]

I always wondered why do people rely on goverment to protect them? (This is not about swedes but generally speaking)

Though im a bit biased since i grew up in a place with no police

Brainwashed from cradle to grave to defer to The State. State will take care of everything, State will think for you. No need to think for yourself or take action. No need for any kind of agency, ever. Just pay your taxes and OBEY.

(the essence of collectivist scandinavian socialist indoctrination - it's so efficient most of us aren't even aware of it)

 

[Squarechoke]

Brainwashed from cradle to grave to defer to The State. State will take care of everything, State will think for you. No need to think for yourself or take action. No need for any kind of agency, ever. Just pay your taxes and OBEY.

(the essence of collectivist scandinavian socialist indoctrination - it's so efficient most of us aren't even aware of it)

If the point was to not think then the political landscape would be stagnant, which it certainly has not been for a pretty long time now. That then ends up as an explanation for something you don't like without an anchor in reality. Unless you meant agency as in taking the law into your own hands, which is illegal in all the developed nations.

A reason why the state is very important in Sweden was due to the conscious choice of striving for freedom from family and the church. The philosophy that the Swedish system was based on was that you had the trinity of state, church and family, all which are controlling parts of your life and you cannot get rid of them all and have a structured society. The choice went on making the state take care of most things in society so you'd be more free from your family and church to control what you do in life. Sweden is very far in the development of individual freedom as the individual is strongly valued compared to family ties, and the church has very little influence. Whether that's desirable is of course up to each person to decide.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

Brainwashed from cradle to grave to defer to The State. State will take care of everything, State will think for you. No need to think for yourself or take action. No need for any kind of agency, ever. Just pay your taxes and OBEY.

(the essence of collectivist scandinavian socialist indoctrination - it's so efficient most of us aren't even aware of it)

You just described Arab countries, they are much more collectivist, they are a very submissive people once you show some strength, excluding a few terrorists and bedouins they love a strongmen to take care of them.

If the point was to not think then the political landscape would be stagnant, which it certainly has not been for a pretty long time now. That then ends up as an explanation for something you don't like without an anchor in reality. Unless you meant agency as in taking the law into your own hands, which is illegal in all the developed nations.

A reason why the state is very important in Sweden was due to the conscious choice of striving for freedom from family and the church. The philosophy that the Swedish system was based on was that you had the trinity of state, church and family, all which are controlling parts of your life and you cannot get rid of them all and have a structured society. The choice went on making the state take care of most things in society so you'd be more free from your family and church to control what you do in life. Sweden is very far in the development of individual freedom as the individual is strongly valued compared to family ties, and the church has very little influence. Whether that's desirable is of course up to each person to decide.

Family>State.
Anyway that collectivist vs Individualist stuff is bullshit. China, Japan, Arabs, Scandinavians, they all can be called collectivist and they're completely different from one another.
China and Japan value conformity but Japan also respects the lone maverick. Scandinavia values individual expression although they also value equality that can only be achieved through a form of collectivism. Arabs value clan loyalty.
It reminds me of what some WW2 veterans said about the germans. Early in the war they expected the Germans to be very disciplined but rigid. Highly trained but not innovative because they lived in a dictatorship and Germans have that stereotype of being hard working but a bit dull.
They couldn't be more wrong, the germans were flexible, aggressive, innovative and took the Allies by surprise at every turn. Any sergeant had ample authority and skill to conduct attacks without needing to rely on upper directions.
The Chinese in Korea also surprised as much more flexible and capable of small individual attacks.
Meanwhile the conventional Arab forces seemed incapable of conducting anything without senior officers directing it against Israel. A far cry against the rugged individualist Bedouin.

 

[sweede]

You just described Arab countries, they are much more collectivist, they are a very submissive people once you show some strength, excluding a few terrorists and bedouins they love a strongmen to take care of them.

Family>State.
Anyway that collectivist vs Individualist stuff is bullshit. China, Japan, Arabs, Scandinavians, they all can be called collectivist and they're completely different from one another.
China and Japan value conformity but Japan also respects the lone maverick. Scandinavia values individual expression although they also value equality that can only be achieved through a form of collectivism. Arabs value clan loyalty.
It reminds me of what some WW2 veterans said about the germans. Early in the war they expected the Germans to be very disciplined but rigid. Highly trained but not innovative because they lived in a dictatorship and Germans have that stereotype of being hard working but a bit dull.
They couldn't be more wrong, the germans were flexible, aggressive, innovative and took the Allies by surprise at every turn. Any sergeant had ample authority and skill to conduct attacks without needing to rely on upper directions.
The Chinese in Korea also surprised as much more flexible and capable of small individual attacks.
Meanwhile the conventional Arab forces seemed incapable of conducting anything without senior officers directing it against Israel. A far cry against the rugged individualist Bedouin.

I disagree with him who wrote that we would be brainwashed to obey. I think he meant some communist country.

Arabs may value the collective. In Sweden, for a very long time since Per Albin's days have had great confidence in our institutions. We have had the impression that our high taxes have gone where they would be intended and with this we have always had a low corruption. But we also value our individual freedom and we are rewarded in Sweden with paid parental leave, long holidays with vacation pay etc. Our collectivism is also very feminine. So much that we are number 1 on the feminine / masculine cultural dimension scale, and Arabs are in the upper layer of the masculine.

Arabs, on the other hand, have a limited collectivism that is more based on one's immediate vicinity. Take Palestinians. We have many who live in Sweden and among the most powerful families who control segments of Malmö are just from Palestine. In Palestine, you have your own policemen, but they usually do not engage in matters that hold their own people. There comes the tribal leader into the picture. He stands for his own police and his words are law, and there are many of that kind. Many male strong men are not intermixed with each other and especially not with state leaders.

 

[Squarechoke]

Family>State.
Anyway that collectivist vs Individualist stuff is bullshit. China, Japan, Arabs, Scandinavians, they all can be called collectivist and they're completely different from one another.
China and Japan value conformity but Japan also respects the lone maverick. Scandinavia values individual expression although they also value equality that can only be achieved through a form of collectivism. Arabs value clan loyalty.
It reminds me of what some WW2 veterans said about the germans. Early in the war they expected the Germans to be very disciplined but rigid. Highly trained but not innovative because they lived in a dictatorship and Germans have that stereotype of being hard working but a bit dull.
They couldn't be more wrong, the germans were flexible, aggressive, innovative and took the Allies by surprise at every turn. Any sergeant had ample authority and skill to conduct attacks without needing to rely on upper directions.
The Chinese in Korea also surprised as much more flexible and capable of small individual attacks.
Meanwhile the conventional Arab forces seemed incapable of conducting anything without senior officers directing it against Israel. A far cry against the rugged individualist Bedouin.

Clan loyalty falls more under family than state, so your post does seem a bit contradictory to me as you point out the issues with that at the same time as saying that family is greater than state. When you look at charts for progressing societies you also see generally stronger family ties in the poorer and less developed countries, while more advanced ones have more focus towards the individual.

My post is also very clearly stating that you cannot get rid of all three collectivist aspects (and none of the three have been gotten rid with entirely anywhere of course) and remain with a structured society so your objection also seems to be based on missing the point a bit.

 

[tonysmasseuse]

You just described Arab countries, they are much more collectivist, they are a very submissive people once you show some strength, excluding a few terrorists and bedouins they love a strongmen to take care of them.

Family>State.
Anyway that collectivist vs Individualist stuff is bullshit. China, Japan, Arabs, Scandinavians, they all can be called collectivist and they're completely different from one another.
China and Japan value conformity but Japan also respects the lone maverick. Scandinavia values individual expression although they also value equality that can only be achieved through a form of collectivism. Arabs value clan loyalty.
It reminds me of what some WW2 veterans said about the germans. Early in the war they expected the Germans to be very disciplined but rigid. Highly trained but not innovative because they lived in a dictatorship and Germans have that stereotype of being hard working but a bit dull.
They couldn't be more wrong, the germans were flexible, aggressive, innovative and took the Allies by surprise at every turn. Any sergeant had ample authority and skill to conduct attacks without needing to rely on upper directions.
The Chinese in Korea also surprised as much more flexible and capable of small individual attacks.
Meanwhile the conventional Arab forces seemed incapable of conducting anything without senior officers directing it against Israel. A far cry against the rugged individualist Bedouin.

Maybe Arab nations are collectivist but, as you say, there are vast differences. For example the difference in levels of corruption/trust gives some insight into just how genuine/deep-seated/solidaric collectivism in Arab and Scandinavian countries are. If you are familiar with both cultures, you can draw your own conclusions.

Scandinavia are truly collectivist: trust-based/low corruption. We even extend the same solidarity to new arrivals, sharing wealth/welfare state etc with them.
Our trustful nature (gullible, if you will) is now to our detriment. We have been living in a false sense of security, a bubble of our own making, thinking everyone is the same. Like we saw recently with the two naive scandinavian girls who got beheaded in Morocco - this gullibility and unquestioning trust in the State's propaganda is not viable in the contact with a more cynical or ruthless world.
Which is why we are so shell-shocked now, with considerable numbers of immigrants who are not collectivist in our way (trustworthy, peaceful and responsible members of society), but rather the opposite.

We are having the rudest of awakenings, and many here are still in stages of denial.

 

[tonysmasseuse]

If the point was to not think then the political landscape would be stagnant, which it certainly has not been for a pretty long time now. That then ends up as an explanation for something you don't like without an anchor in reality. Unless you meant agency as in taking the law into your own hands, which is illegal in all the developed nations.

A reason why the state is very important in Sweden was due to the conscious choice of striving for freedom from family and the church. The philosophy that the Swedish system was based on was that you had the trinity of state, church and family, all which are controlling parts of your life and you cannot get rid of them all and have a structured society. The choice went on making the state take care of most things in society so you'd be more free from your family and church to control what you do in life. Sweden is very far in the development of individual freedom as the individual is strongly valued compared to family ties, and the church has very little influence. Whether that's desirable is of course up to each person to decide.

I like your post, but tell me this:
How are you free when you are not even allowed to defend yourself?
How are Swedish girls and women free if they are afraid to leave their homes?
How are Swedish plebs free if their neighbourhoods have turned into ghettoes and they are afraid to leave their homes?

Seperation of church and state is still a brilliant idea (yay) but...
You're free to not go to church, sure, but just try driving without a seatbelt or do any fucking thing without obtaining a licence. But of course you wouldn't dream of doing any of those things in the first place.

I mean agency in all aspects of the word:
Initiative, entrepreneur-ship, aggression, taking action, showing independence and individuality.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

I disagree with him who wrote that we would be brainwashed to obey. I think he meant some communist country.

Arabs may value the collective. In Sweden, for a very long time since Per Albin's days have had great confidence in our institutions. We have had the impression that our high taxes have gone where they would be intended and with this we have always had a low corruption. But we also value our individual freedom and we are rewarded in Sweden with paid parental leave, long holidays with vacation pay etc. Our collectivism is also very feminine. So much that we are number 1 on the feminine / masculine cultural dimension scale, and Arabs are in the upper layer of the masculine.

Arabs, on the other hand, have a limited collectivism that is more based on one's immediate vicinity. Take Palestinians. We have many who live in Sweden and among the most powerful families who control segments of Malmö are just from Palestine. In Palestine, you have your own policemen, but they usually do not engage in matters that hold their own people. There comes the tribal leader into the picture. He stands for his own police and his words are law, and there are many of that kind. Many male strong men are not intermixed with each other and especially not with state leaders.

Arab collectivism is the bad kind of collectivism, they don't care about collective good but they follow what others do, conformism.
Collectivism and individualism can mean both good and bad things.
Good individualism=freedom, bad=egotism.
good collectivism=caring about your people bad=being a sheep

Clan loyalty falls more under family than state, so your post does seem a bit contradictory to me as you point out the issues with that at the same time as saying that family is greater than state. When you look at charts for progressing societies you also see generally stronger family ties in the poorer and less developed countries, while more advanced ones have more focus towards the individual.

My post is also very clearly stating that you cannot get rid of all three collectivist aspects (and none of the three have been gotten rid with entirely anywhere of course) and remain with a structured society so your objection also seems to be based on missing the point a bit.

I mean I prefer family over state even though it's correlated with poorer states. I should have separated that line from the rest. The problem with arabs is that they traditionally valued family, in a different way than western families of course, but after ww2 they are moving towards strongmen totalitarism like Saddam, Nasser, Assad. It's a complex topic and hard to reduce to a paragraph.

I think my point is just to stir the discussion a bit

 

[Squarechoke]

I like your post, but tell me this:
How are you free when you are not even allowed to defend yourself?
How are Swedish girls and women free if they are afraid to leave their homes?
How are Swedish plebs free if their neighbourhoods have turned into ghettoes and they are afraid to leave their homes?

Seperation of church and state is still a brilliant idea (yay) but...
You're free to not go to church, sure, but just try driving without a seatbelt or do any fucking thing without obtaining a licence. But of course you wouldn't dream of doing any of those things in the first place.

I mean agency in all aspects of the word:
Initiative, entrepreneur-ship, aggression, taking action, showing independence and individuality.

You're of course allowed to defend yourself, read the laws and you'll see. The other two points are written as if it was some form of norm, which is absurd. Some live in worse places of course, but hardly worse than many other developed nations.

The church used to be quite invasive in people's lives in the past so if you're read up on the history of Sweden, and Europe in general for that matter, you'll know that it's about more than just not going to church. Unlike the church you do have a say in what the government should be, contrary to your post that rather suggested some kind of communist dictatorship where people were just subjects. Your example objections here just seems to criticize being generally civilized.

The way you talk about agency now either points to a lack of knowledge about the country or we have some differing views of the definitions of those words. Plenty of strong businesses as well as scientific and technological advancement and innovation for such a small country. Aggression I agree that there isn't much of, for which I'm glad, and as for taking actions that's pretty vague and could be answered in different ways. Independence is very far from being absent (I've even read articles calling Swedes the most independent people in the world from a certain perspective, and some would even see that as a negative) and you hardly have big issues being accepted despite being different.

 

[Squarechoke]

I mean I prefer family over state even though it's correlated with poorer states. I should have separated that line from the rest. The problem with arabs is that they traditionally valued family, in a different way than western families of course, but after ww2 they are moving towards strongmen totalitarism like Saddam, Nasser, Assad. It's a complex topic and hard to reduce to a paragraph.

I think my point is just to stir the discussion a bit

Alright, that's fine. I prefer the state as it more easily gives equal opportunities to people. You are of course right in that it's a very complex matter and even countries with similar ideas will have different implementations with it's advantages and disadvantages. We'll all also be quite inclined to like the system that we've grown up in as that's what we're used to and comfortable with. At least we who haven't been oppressed.

 

[lifelessheap]

Excuse me, where did you get this idea from? I am a social democrat and am raised in a working class home and those I know also come from ordinary Swedish homes. I think you mean those privileged people who want to pay as little tax as possible and who vote for one of the right wing parties.

Cuck.

 

[tonysmasseuse]

You're of course allowed to defend yourself, read the laws and you'll see. The other two points are written as if it was some form of norm, which is absurd. Some live in worse places of course, but hardly worse than many other developed nations.

The church used to be quite invasive in people's lives in the past so if you're read up on the history of Sweden, and Europe in general for that matter, you'll know that it's about more than just not going to church. Unlike the church you do have a say in what the government should be, contrary to your post that rather suggested some kind of communist dictatorship where people were just subjects. Your example objections here just seems to criticize being generally civilized.

The way you talk about agency now either points to a lack of knowledge about the country or we have some differing views of the definitions of those words. Plenty of strong businesses as well as scientific and technological advancement and innovation for such a small country. Aggression I agree that there isn't much of, for which I'm glad, and as for taking actions that's pretty vague and could be answered in different ways. Independence is very far from being absent (I've even read articles calling Swedes the most independent people in the world from a certain perspective, and some would even see that as a negative) and you hardly have big issues being accepted despite being different.

Aren't you a good polite swedish boy

It's nice that you are still so in praise of your country, so loyal to the State propaganda - i can see the merit in that.

I would say i'm quite familiar with sweden, even though i'm not a swede. I'm Danish and have spent a lot of time in Sweden, Malmö particularly, and old enough to have seen it change over the past 40+ years, exponentially faster, and for the worse.

You - Sweden - are roughly 10 years behind us (DK), in terms of even having an somewhat honest political debate about what to do with the absolute disaster that is unchecked immigration (have you found your missing 14.000+ muslim illegals yet?) and you are in for an even worse reckoning.

What do you think your country would currently look like if it were not for police presence?
How do you think ME, African and Balkan thugs would behave and treat your citizens and country, if it were not for police presence?
Why is your police currently overworked and why do you need so many many more police officers urgently to deal with "situations"?
How do you feel about the fact that your ideals are so utopian that they can only be enforced by having a de facto police state and a compliant newspeak-media that butters up the truth or outright lie to you all the time about crime, and the true cost of crime, in your country?

 

[ferrisjso]

If Sweden's so crowded I wonder where y'all rank in population density.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden

198th.

Basically it's NYC's population in three New York states.

The overcrowding must be unbearable.