Supraspinatus Fly? (Entropy)

Monger

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Hi guys. I have a question on the Supraspinatus Fly that is found at this link

http://www.paddlesup.ca/doctors/shoulders.html

I'm hoping to get a response from Entropy due to his extensive knowledge in this matter but I thought others might have opinions as well. I've had problems with my rotator's and labrums in the past that required surgery. One of the exercises that my rehab therapist told me to do was the Supraspinatus Fly. So I've been doing this exercise and integrated it in my workouts and I've been raising the weights as it became easier. Now I just stumbled on to this web site that says this exercise should never be done even for rehab. Now I'll be the first to admit that I thought my rehab person didn't know shit (but unfortunately my crappy insurance forced me to go to her). So if anyone wants to give their opinion on this exercise for shoulder health I'd like to hear it.

thanks!
 
Monger said:
Hi guys. I have a question on the Supraspinatus Fly that is found at this link

http://www.paddlesup.ca/doctors/shoulders.html

I'm hoping to get a response from Entropy due to his extensive knowledge in this matter but I thought others might have opinions as well. I've had problems with my rotator's and labrums in the past that required surgery. One of the exercises that my rehab therapist told me to do was the Supraspinatus Fly. So I've been doing this exercise and integrated it in my workouts and I've been raising the weights as it became easier. Now I just stumbled on to this web site that says this exercise should never be done even for rehab. Now I'll be the first to admit that I thought my rehab person didn't know shit (but unfortunately my crappy insurance forced me to go to her). So if anyone wants to give their opinion on this exercise for shoulder health I'd like to hear it.

thanks!


Very interesting link. I like how they said the uproght row could have been designed to cause tendonitis of the shoulder. I too am interested in seeing what Entropy has to say.
 
My friend is a Personal Trainer with a Degree in exercise science and is always trying to further his knowledge in exercise science. Now that I prefaced my remarks, let me say that he swears by this exercise. He says that it helps with muscular balance and will help keep you injury free. He thinks that the reason for most of the injuries in lifting are due to strength imbalances which will lead to compounding injuries if not corrected. The Supraspinatus Flys are one of the exercises that he recommends often.

Anyway, interesting article, thanks.

I also look forward to what Entropy has to say on the subject.
 
I know that I did that exercise to rehab my own injury. It seemed to work good for me.

One thing, don't increase the weight for shoulder injuries. You always wanna keep prehab/rehab with light weight. I have read that by increasing the weight of the exercises you can actually get the tendons in the rotator cuff to hypertrophy, and thereby increasing the chance on impinging them. Keep the weight light and just do 3x10.
 
According to that article, I'm in trouble. I do mass quantities of weighted dips and wide pushups. I tore my rotator cuff (wrestling about 6 years ago) and I partially seperated the other shoulder (snowboarding last winter). I've been through physical therapy which involved all the "good" exercises in that article, but the only thing I was told to stay away from was behind the head OHP.
 
There seems to be many inconsistencies among professionals on the issue. I've had 4 different therapists in the past for shoulder related problems and 2 different surgeons. They've all told me different stuff of what to do and what not to do. I've learned not to trust anyone by their title.

For example.. My surgeon told me to stay away from dips and my therapist had me doing them. I try to do as much research on my own as possible.
 
Monger said:
There seems to be many inconsistencies among professionals on the issue. I've had 4 different therapists in the past for shoulder related problems and 2 different surgeons. They've all told me different stuff of what to do and what not to do. I've learned not to trust anyone by their title.

For example.. My surgeon told me to stay away from dips and my therapist had me doing them. I try to do as much research on my own as possible.


there are inconsistencies in advice because there are inconsistent clinical research indications. if you do your own research, and you perform this research thoroughly, you will probably come up with inconsistent information, too.
 
k'z factory said:
there are inconsistencies in advice because there are inconsistent clinical research indications. if you do your own research, and you perform this research thoroughly, you will probably come up with inconsistent information, too.

I have, that's why I've started this discussion.
 
I'm digging this post back up because I've never really gotten an answer and I'm still curious. Since I originally posted this back in January I dropped the exercise from my workouts. I'm in the process of rehabbing yet another shoulder surgery and I'd like to bring this up for discussion once more.
 
The website is wrong. The supra fly is a very common and effective rehab exercise. I did them when I had rehab surgery, all my buddies too. My shoulder now is as strong as it was before
 
PhxJudoJujitsu said:
The website is wrong. The supra fly is a very common and effective rehab exercise. I did them when I had rehab surgery, all my buddies too. My shoulder now is as strong as it was before

I've done them for rehab as well in the past. The fact that I didn't get injured from it or that you and your buddies didn't get injured from it isn't a credible validation to the safety of the exercise. I mean it's not good to bench with your elbows flared out either but some people do it all of their lives without injury. I do know that for me personally, I always got a pinching feeling while doing the movement. I always wrote it off to weakness due to the surgery but who knows.
 
Did you eventually get stronger? Then obviously it didnt have any detriment to you
 
PhxJudoJujitsu said:
Did you eventually get stronger? Then obviously it didnt have any detriment to you

Do people get stronger doing fucked up squats, bench, or DL's?
 
That doesn't mean there a detriment. The site you posted stated that supra flyes are bad for you, will cuase damage and weaken you. A shitty squat wont make you weak, just not as strong as you can be
 
PhxJudoJujitsu said:
That doesn't mean there a detriment. The site you posted stated that supra flyes are bad for you, will cuase damage and weaken you. A shitty squat wont make you weak, just not as strong as you can be

Just so you know, I'm not arguing with you on the flys being harmful or not. I was just arguing your reasons for saying so. I don't know if they are harmful which is why I brought it up for discussion.

I think that my comparison has merit. For example, if you perform an incorrect squat you can still make strength gains and it is possible to be one of the lucky ones and go through life without injury from it. That's what I was pointing out by your logic. Just because you don't know anyone that the fly has harmed and just because you can gain strength from it doesn't mean that it can't be inherently detrimental.

You could be correct with the exercise being perfectly safe... I'm just getting thoughts on it so I can make my own decision. Thanks for the replies.
 
PhxJudoJujitsu said:
The site you posted stated that supra flyes are bad for you, will cuase damage and weaken you.

FYI, it doesn't say that it will weaken you. It's implying that they may instigate tendonitis.

3. Supraspinatus Fly - This exercise does effectively isolate the suraspinatus muscle (another rotator cuff member). Unfortunately, like upright rows it also combines internal rotation with abduction. Don't do these even to rehab a supraspinatus injury. (Fig. 7)

2. Upright Rows - This exercise could have been designed to cause rotator cuff tendonitis. It combines extreme internal rotation with extreme abduction (raising the upper arm away from the body), a sure fire recipe for disaster. (Fig. 6)
 
Are you talking about flyes, or upright rows. The site is correct upright ros aggrivate tendonitis. But supra flyes aka "empy cans" the best exercise for isolating and strengthening the Supraspinatus
 
PhxJudoJujitsu said:
Are you talking about flyes, or upright rows. The site is correct upright ros aggrivate tendonitis. But supra flyes aka "empy cans" the best exercise for isolating and strengthening the Supraspinatus

I am talking about the flys. I linked the upright rows text because they refer to the flys having the same detriment as the rows. Therefore, you have to read their text regarding upright rows to understand what they are implying in their text about the flys.
 
There not the same. No the same kinetics, nor do they use the all the same muscles. The UR utlizes The Supraspinatus, infrasoinatus, Trap I and Trap II. It's also a awkrwad motor patch, they are not the same exercise at all
 
The two exercises both combine internal rotation with abduction. That is their similarity and that is the connection that the author is pointing out. I thought that was obvious.

Just FYI, I asked my therapist this morning what he thought of the exercise. He felt that it could be good for some people who have perfect caudal glide and who have plenty of space for the tendons to move back in forth. But many people will get a pinch with the exercise because of space restrictions for muscles and tendons to slide at the top of the movement (even healthy shoulders). He doesn't prescribe this exercise for any of his rehab patients.

I've now had 5 different therapist work with me on shoulder rehab. 2 prescribed the sup fly and 3 did not.
 
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