Sudanese woman sentenced to death for her faith

Yeah, can't let that resource go to waste. No sense in executing someone when you can inculcate him or her from birth.

What else is there to say? Wait for apologists to come and attempt equivocation even though they never have an actual example of identical atrocities being committed by those of other religions with which to equivocate.

Here I'm the apologist!

US and Europe might not take the first place in committing outrageous acts of atrocity

against individuals but we have been shitting on the life of millions of people for

something like 500 years.

white man is gonna white man I guess...
 
So, this woman was raised by her single, Christian mother, and married a Christian man. She was charged with marrying outside of 'her' faith, as the court decided she was a Muslim. In court, she stated her family history and that she was raised a Christian... and they went ahead and charged her anyways.

And she's supposed to be flogged for adultery, since her 'marriage' wasn't "real", because... she's a muslim.


What. The. Hell?

This is beyond ridiculous. Even BESIDES how I feel about a law that punishes people for converting or marrying outside of their religion, she hasn't even broken that law?! It's one thing to have a silly little court based on the rules of the Sugar Plum Princess or whatever-it-is, but this court can't even follow their own rules.

What's the purpose of punishing someone for not worshiping the all-powerful Tooth Fairy if you can't even follow the rules of said Tooth Fairy?
 
Jeez, here it is 2014 and Third World shit holes are still doing stuff like this.
 
I don't really understand the problem people have with Muslims. You're talking about a small minority that don't live up to our modern standards and surprisingly most of these incidents are in the third world - the vast majority including myself live to modern standards, that's why news you hear of this variety is a statistically small percentage compared to the global Muslim population of roughly 1.6 billion.


Also what modern standard are you also referring to? All cultures have different moral/cultural standards - so which modern standard are you ascribing to? Do you think we are any better here - the only difference is we have state backing to commit mass murder & deny people their freedoms and no-one bats an eyelid because it's our military and we should supposedly support them in killing people.


It's got nothing to do with his beliefs or my beliefs are superior. The only way to change areas of the world like this is through education but this is hard to do when governments & political systems in these areas of the world are self-serving and extremely corrupt.





Well is that very surprising given that many consecutive wars/sanctions & modern day imperialism has happened in many of these countries in the last 50+ years.

You only have to look at the fucking around we've done in the last 13 years (wars, sanctions, propping/supporting dictatorships) to see why it's not surprising why many of these countries are shit-holes & why the religion of these countries have become much more hardline.

If you face 50+ years of the same shit, eventually shit is going to reach a boiling point & we are witnessing it right now.








Huh....Muslims by far and large do not force you into joining them. I could care less what you wanted to believe, you could start praying to a dog or having sexual relations with a goat for all I care lol and that honestly goes for most Muslims, we've got our own daily problems to really give a shit about you having a change of heart about your beliefs.....that's the honest truth.

If we really felt the way you think we did - 1.6 billions Muslims or even a significant percentage would be going around & forcing people to convert & not allowing people to convert away.

I'm not denying stuff like what you describe happens but such incidents occur with less than 1% of the global Muslim population. It's retarded to assume or generalise that all Muslims must behave or think like the extreme few.


To be honest, I don't think anyone here really understand the dynamics at play - many of you just form opinions from what you hear on the media.

You can't claim it's a "small minority" when NATIONS adopt radical standards.

In today's world Islam is unique in it's efforts to supplant government and become the ruling standard.
 
Well she's pregnant so they're murdering two people in the name of Islam. Very unfortunate for the woman.

"A relative had turned her in to the police for marrying a Christian."

Religion can make even the best of people, do wicked things. In this case, the best of people is her relative who turned on her because of religious differences.

"Without religion, bad people will do evil things and good people will do good things. But to make good people do evil things, for that you need religion."
 
Huh....Muslims by far and large do not force you into joining them. I could care less what you wanted to believe, you could start praying to a dog or having sexual relations with a goat for all I care lol and that honestly goes for most Muslims, we've got our own daily problems to really give a shit about you having a change of heart about your beliefs.....that's the honest truth.

If we really felt the way you think we did - 1.6 billions Muslims or even a significant percentage would be going around & forcing people to convert & not allowing people to convert away.

I'm not denying stuff like what you describe happens but such incidents occur with less than 1% of the global Muslim population. It's retarded to assume or generalise that all Muslims must behave or think like the extreme few.


To be honest, I don't think anyone here really understand the dynamics at play - many of you just form opinions from what you hear on the media.

Islam for the most part was forced onto people. It's only in South East Asia and small pockets in Southern India that Islam didn't convert by the sword.

In modern times we see how Muslims in Pakistan harass threaten and utilize other means to force non Muslims to convert or to leave Pakistan. A recent news article mentioned how every year 5000 Hindus leave Pakistan due to threats and harassement. Christians and Shia in Pakistan are also under assault from Sunnis who want them to convert or leave.

Bangladesh has carried out its own ethnic cleansing of non Muslims in recent times.

In Syria the Salafists have demanded Christians convert or die.

In Egypt Copts face institutional discrimination and there are often mob violence against Copts.

All of these acts of violence and threats in Muslim majority nations are designed to convert non Muslims or to ethnically cleanse them. These are all FORCEFULL conversions or attempts at conversion.

There are umpteen news reports from varied sources about how chauvinistic Islamic society is towards non Muslims in their midst.

Islam also proscribes Muslims who leave Islam but implores Muslims to evangelize. Just pure hypocrisy.
 
It's really strange. During the Middle Ages, the Arabs under Islamic leadership were advancing on science, maths, astronomy, literature and trade. They were even making jokes about Christian kingdoms being intoxicated on religion. Somewhere along the line the positions completely flipped. I wonder what was the tilting point of this.

Two incidents:

1. Hulagu Khan

2. Al-Ghazali

Together they basically destroyed that civilization.
 
It's really strange. During the Middle Ages, the Arabs under Islamic leadership were advancing on science, maths, astronomy, literature and trade. They were even making jokes about Christian kingdoms being intoxicated on religion. Somewhere along the line the positions completely flipped. I wonder what was the tilting point of this.

It wasn't Arabs (i.e. Penninsula Arabs) , it was people who were Islamized following Arab Islamic conquest. The folks who advanced Science and Math (non Penninsula Near Eastern ethnic groups) were already part of well established civilizations before Islam. If Islam converted Western Europe, it does not mean whatever inventions Europeans continue to come with should be credited to Islam.
 
Well there are various differing legal opinions. In the Hanafi madhab, the main view is that apostasy is not punishable by death, only if an apostate commits treason against the state otherwise it's not punishable, since the view is that faith is held accountable not in this world but in the akhirah (hereafter).

Well it doesn't need much hadith or Islamic jurisprudence because it's quite clearly advocated in the Qur'an:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." 2:256

Some commentators believe the above first is abrogated but some do not. Furthermore the next verses make it pretty clear - death is not a punishment for apostasy (it has none):


"Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them on the way" 4:137

Quite clear evidence that there were Muslims & non-Muslims who believed, converted away, believed again etc etc - and they were allowed to do so. If the punishment for apostasy was death - they'd never have had the chance to revert.



"Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.

This because they love the life of this world better than the Hereafter: and Allah will not guide those who reject Faith.

Those are they whose hearts, ears, and eyes Allah has sealed up, and they take no heed.

Without doubt, in the Hereafter they will perish." 16:106-109

Self-explanatory.



But the most obvious verse on the apostasy issue & the most used to paint a negative portrait on Islam and probably the most quoted out of context verse also reaffirms the main Hanafi position:

"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;

Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them)." 4:89-90


Off the top of my head - these are the logical proofs I remember reading a while back. The above verse makes it quite plain - it talks about the occasion when some Muslims were apostates - the verse prior gives some more clarification on the topic:

"Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way." - 4:88

Those who turned 'renegade' or against the Muslim community at the time were commanded to seize them & kill them - however the command made exception to apostates who were peaceful & did not wish to go against the Muslim community - 4:90.


That verse from 4:88-90 - explains or clarifies the Hanafi position as well as most Muslims on apostasy. In fact line for line those two verses explain & clarify the hanafi position on apostasy.


There is one glaring problem with those who follow the belief that apostasy is punishable by death - one of the hadiths used to deduce so, is seriously flawed. The one related by Ikrimah has multiple hadith all with slightly different stories on the incident regarding Ali (ra) making it very unreliable. But the most noteworthy thing which is wrong with that hadith is (a) it implies that Ali (ra) did not know the ruling regarding apostasy (kind of crazy to imagine) since in one of those versions of the same hadith he burnt apostates, (b) it implies that ibn Abbas knew more about Islam than Ali (ra) - extremely hard to believe, even more so when Abbas was 10 years old when he converted and 13 when the prophet (saw) passed away. Not to mention some hadith compilers thought of Ikrimah as a weak chain & a liar - this is why this hadith is not in Muslim.


http://islamicperspectives.com/punishmentofapostasy_part2.html

The above link highlights the problem with the hadiths that support punishment by death.

Thanks for your comments Azam. I can only hope more Muslims come to see things your way, though I think you greatly overstate how far things have progressed on this issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

"A 2010 Pew Research Center poll showed that 84% of Egyptian Muslims believe those who leave Islam should be punished by death."

Even in the UK:

"A 2007 poll by Policy Exchange revealed that 31% of British Muslims believed that leaving the Muslim religion should be punishable by death."

Hopefully this will change as more people rethink about how the more traditional juristic views and tafsir have actually misinterpreted much of what the Qur'an is talking about. Also, many Muslims seem to be increasingly critical of hadith in general, although they will not state it that way.

There is a long and very good recent article by Patricia Crone on 2:256 and how it has been interpreted in the Muslim tradition, as well as how it is used in the Qur'an itself. You may be interested in it.

http://www.hs.ias.edu/files/Crone_Articles/Crone_la_ikraha.pdf
 
I wonder why...it can't be western imperialism and an Islamic feeling that their self-determination is being hindered, right? Lol.

No, I think it's more likely that it's not our fault at all, they're responsible for their own actions just like everyone else, and they're just barbaric tribalists. Africans were killing each other for thousands of years before Europeans or Americans set foot there, and they'd probably keep killing each other whether every vestige of colonialism was removed or not.
 
Seems Islam has been taking quite a few big steps backwards these last 50+ years as the other religions are generally becoming less zealous.

Shit like this has been going on a lot longer than 50 years. and in much larger numbers.

Armenian_Genocide

It's only getting more out in the open because of technology.
 
in a report from last year, they said that in 2012 there were more christian martyrs than any other year

guess who did the killing

muhammed commands this behavior so what is the surprise
 
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