Striking Defense: Stance and Guard

[peanut66]

So if it can substitute wrestling... then wrestling isn't necessary for MMA. You're right--if you don't have wrestling you won't make it far in MMA. Thank God that Fedor, Anderson Silva, Lyoto Machida, Shogun Rua, and Shinya Aoki are all elite wrestlers. That's probably the reason for their success. Just to be clear, I'm being sarcastic, and no, Anderson's wrestling ability is sub-par.

I just don't get how you can say that wrestling is necessary. How many Brazilians wrestle? How many of our champs are Brazilians?

You know what UFC 1 proved? That a no holds barred competition designed to promote a single martial art by pitting it against people completely unprepared for groundfighting does a great job of making that art famous. I'd like to see Royce Gracie fight someone nowadays with even decent BJJ and good standup.

Anyway, could we please get back on topic? This thread isn't about wrestling.

there are 8 divisions in ufc ,, only 3 champions are brazillian , of those 3 brazillians , they are all strikers ,

junior dos santos

anderson silva

jose aldo

the rest are excellent wrestlers and american (gsp canadian ), wrestling and bjj go hand in hand now , unless you always want to fight from the bottom

 

[Discipulus]

That's exactly what I'm saying. Three of the champs are primarily strikers. All of their grappling consists of BJJ--not wrestling. Wrestling is a great art to have a background in. But it's obviously not necessary.

 

[KylePulley]

So if it can substitute wrestling... then wrestling isn't necessary for MMA. You're right--if you don't have wrestling you won't make it far in MMA. Thank God that Fedor, Anderson Silva, Lyoto Machida, Shogun Rua, and Shinya Aoki are all elite wrestlers. That's probably the reason for their success. Just to be clear, I'm being sarcastic, and no, Anderson's wrestling ability is sub-par.

I just don't get how you can say that wrestling is necessary. How many Brazilians wrestle? How many of our champs are Brazilians?

You know what UFC 1 proved? That a no holds barred competition designed to promote a single martial art by pitting it against people completely unprepared for groundfighting does a great job of making that art famous. I'd like to see Royce Gracie fight someone nowadays with even decent BJJ and good standup.

Anyway, could we please get back on topic? This thread isn't about wrestling.

All of those fighters listed know how to wrestle.

Anderons wrestling ability isnt that bad. But i could be wrong...the only strong wreslter he has fought that I remember has been sonnen...

K you don't "need" wrestling, you need a way to dictact whether the fight stays on the feet or goes to the ground.

You can choose between Wreslting, and judo.

Even if UFC 1 had the best BJJ guy vs the best boxer the outcome would of been the same. It was designed to show, art vs art, BJJ > Wrestling > Striking.

 

[Discipulus]

Okay, see, you're confusing the sport of wrestling with the act of "wrestling." You mean to say that you need stand-up grappling ability and/or the ability to take the fight to the ground when you want it go there. You can develop that ability just doing BJJ. Hell, you could develop that ability doing Muay Thai. Or, you could have weak grappling and just be an elusive striker.

It's called mixed martial arts, son. Why does everyone now think there's some kind of recipe for being a good fighter, when there are clearly examples of multiple arts being combined successfully?

And don't be so sure that the best boxer couldn't have knocked Royce Gracie's ass out. I'm not some fool who thinks that grappling isn't important, but there are plenty of fighters who get by on their standup. With better footwork, there'd be even more.

Back on topic now?

 

[peanut66]

That's exactly what I'm saying. Three of the champs are primarily strikers. All of their grappling consists of BJJ--not wrestling. Wrestling is a great art to have a background in. But it's obviously not necessary.

all i know is that , all the mma guys at our club that compete spend as much time wrestling as practicing bjj and they are all black belt bjj or close to it ,

that is why you dont see strictly bjj guys dominate anymore , the only exception i would say is paul harris .

i edited this because i jut read you other post , im not sure if you practice bjj or not , but wrestling is totally different than bjj ,

 

[Discipulus]

all i know is that , all the mma guys at our club that compete spend as much time wrestling as practicing bjj and they are all black belt bjj or close to it ,

that is why you dont see strictly bjj guys dominate anymore , the only exception i would say is paul harris .

i edited this because i jut read you other post , im not sure if you practice bjj or not , but wrestling is totally different than bjj ,

JDS? Shogun? Anderson? There are plenty of guys whose entire grappling background is BJJ, and they do quite well. Remember, this thread is about standup defense. The reason we're even talking about wrestling is because the limitations of the boxing crouch were brought up. So we should be talking about the grappling abilities of strikers. And there are plenty of strikers whose only grappling consists of BJJ.

Yes, I know that wrestling is different from BJJ. What I was saying is that there is at least some element of stand-up grappling and transitions from standing to groundfighting in BJJ. Paul Harris, whom you mentioned, has no trouble getting his fights to the ground. He was even competitive against Dan Henderson, a wrestler.

 

[peanut66]

sorry , i wasnt trying to derail thread. i was just agreeing with kyle on a certain point he was making and just stating facts .

i just read your original post . ill chime in if you like .

a boxers stance is good for boxing , as soon as kicking comes into play it changes for a reason , sure you will get guys who can pull it off , only because they are better punchers than kickers , when you are a better kicker than a puncher it works to your disadvantage . you probably feel more comfortable punching and staying in the pocket .

there is a reason why muay thai fighters stand that way at that distance they fight and there is a reason why tkd guys stand the way they do .just like there is a reason why anderson silva will change his stance and even type of fight style 3 or 4 times during a fight . i can elaborate if you like .

 

[Steakeater**]

Take this shi to the grapplling forum after reading my 2-cent.



My 2-cent. Westernized Muay Thai has a heavy boxing component and Westernized BJJ has a heavy wrestling component, so trying to compare one or the other is moot

 

[peanut66]

Take this shi to the grapplling forum after reading my 2-cent.



My 2-cent. Westernized Muay Thai has a heavy boxing component and Westernized BJJ has a heavy wrestling component, so trying to compare one or the other is moot

i read your 2 cents . what is western muay thai and westerm bjj ,, did you just make up those terms? mauy thai is muay thai and bjj is bjj , if it has been modified for mma , thats a different story .

or are you implying that they have been changed because of western instructors ?

 

[Steakeater**]

or are you implying that they have been changed because of western instructors ?

This. Im talking about the end result. Look at Americans of the same art compared to Japanese grapplers or Thailand MT

 

[peanut66]

This. Im talking about the end result. Look at Americans of the same art compared to Japanese grapplers or Thailand MT

is that good or bad ?

im sorry but your posts always seem to be these one liners that leave me scratching my head , its like trying to solve a mathematic problem .

 

[Steakeater**]

is that good or bad ?

im sorry but your posts always seem to be these one liners that leave me scratching my head , its like trying to solve a mathematic problem .

I mean theres really no point of comparing boxing to "Americanized Muay Thai" and wrestling to "Americanized BJJ or grappling",

because there is so much influence of boxing and wrestling already in their style.

 

[Jukai]

Fedor has one of the best ground games in the history of MMA.

Never did freestyle or greco roman wrestling. Never did wrestling in High School. Never trained professional or catch.

He did Judo and Combat Sambo.

This should kind of end the argument right here. Wrestling is like Muay Thai, it is the most adaptable of the ground arts, but it isn't the know-all-end-all.

 

[KylePulley]

Okay, see, you're confusing the sport of wrestling with the act of "wrestling." You mean to say that you need stand-up grappling ability and/or the ability to take the fight to the ground when you want it go there. You can develop that ability just doing BJJ. Hell, you could develop that ability doing Muay Thai. Or, you could have weak grappling and just be an elusive striker.

It's called mixed martial arts, son. Why does everyone now think there's some kind of recipe for being a good fighter, when there are clearly examples of multiple arts being combined successfully?

And don't be so sure that the best boxer couldn't have knocked Royce Gracie's ass out. I'm not some fool who thinks that grappling isn't important, but there are plenty of fighters who get by on their standup. With better footwork, there'd be even more.

Back on topic now?

Dude your on crack.

No you don't learn how to wrestle from mauy thai. Period.

BJJ does teach trips and takedowns etc. But it doesn't focus on that explicitly...which is kinda silly, because if they can't get it to the mat, BJJ becomes useless.

I'm 100% sure that 99 out of 100 times, royce would of tapped out that boxer.

I'm 80% sure a fresh blue belt would tap out that boxer 70 out of 100 times.

As far as your logic goes, about the sport of wreslting and the act of wrestling, it makes no sense.

If I grab a hockey stick, the gear, everything, but play on cement instead and put shoes on...is it no longer hockey? even though 80% of the concepts still apply?

Just admit you need wrestling to not get destroy in MMA,

Junior Has it (he stuffed roy, cain, carwin)
Aldo has it (stuffed everyone)
Anderson has it but not as well (stuffed Okami, nate, leites, maia, etc). And he is in a division with no wrestlers...so he's lucky (besides sonnen, munoz)

You need wrestling.

 

[peanut66]

Fedor has one of the best ground games in the history of MMA.

Never did freestyle or greco roman wrestling. Never did wrestling in High School. Never trained professional or catch.

He did Judo and Combat Sambo.

This should kind of end the argument right here. Wrestling is like Muay Thai, it is the most adaptable of the ground arts, but it isn't the know-all-end-all.

ooh ,thats a very broad statement , the best ground game in mma history ? , granted he has wins over big nog , but they went to decision , and he was submited by werdum , grounded by hendo and silva as of late .

i would agree with you about his takedowns and take down defence and over all grappling abilities , but the best in mma i think is a stretch .,

 

[KylePulley]

Here is my compromise, If we can all agree without wrestling, A mma fighter at an elite level, will be at a sever disadvantage. I will shut up.

 

[Jukai]

ooh ,thats a very broad statement , the best ground game in mma history ? , granted he has wins over big nog , but they went to decision , and he was submited by werdum , grounded by hendo and silva as of late .

i would agree with you about his takedowns and take down defence and over all grappling abilities , but the best in mma i think is a stretch .,

Well I said one of the best.

He fought in a time where the majority of fighters in MMA were wrestlers, BJJ guys, or judo guys. He beat Arona, Sobral, Fujita, Coleman, Randleman, Sylvia and Lindland on top of Big Nog (three times). Yes, Werdum submitting him is his only black eye in grappling. Hendo pretty much knocked him out and was just too large and sat on him.

 

[peanut66]

Well I said one of the best.

He fought in a time where the majority of fighters in MMA were wrestlers, BJJ guys, or judo guys. He beat Arona, Sobral, Fujita, Coleman, Randleman, Sylvia and Lindland on top of Big Nog (three times). Yes, Werdum submitting him is his only black eye in grappling. Hendo pretty much knocked him out and was just too large and sat on him.

one of the best for sure , i missed that "one " part , i guess it was pretty important .


mma has changed so much , even in the past few years , everyone has got such good defence now , when was the last time you seen an arm bar ? lots of attempts , but they get reversed , fedor would have his hands full now with a lot of fighters , especially at lhw or even hw.,

the person i think will be the best ground fighter of the future is paul harris , even hendo was afraid of his ground game , i think he will be a bad match up for anderson silva .

 

[Jukai]

one of the best for sure , i missed that "one " part , i guess it was pretty important .

mma has changed so much , even in the past few years , everyone has got such good defence now , when was the last time you seen an arm bar ? lots of attempts , but they get reversed , fedor would have his hands full now with a lot of fighters , especially at lhw or even hw.,

the person i think will be the best ground fighter of the future is paul harris , even hendo was afraid of his ground game , i think he will be a bad match up for anderson silva .

I agree that Fedor would have a much harder time nowadays, but I think that's actually because of striking and not grappling. The arm bar is a lost art

And I hope Kyle Pulley is watching this episode of TUFs which shows the wrestler struggling with the BJJ black belt because he wrestlers, sweeps, and takes you down differently. Awesome.

 

[KylePulley]

I agree that Fedor would have a much harder time nowadays, but I think that's actually because of striking and not grappling. The arm bar is a lost art

And I hope Kyle Pulley is watching this episode of TUFs which shows the wrestler struggling with the BJJ black belt because he wrestlers, sweeps, and takes you down differently. Awesome.

thanks for spoiling it...thats not cool, please don't do that.