Striking Defense: Stance and Guard

[ssullivan80]

That's not really relevant to my point though. If the guy is of similar striking skill, having a stance where you're more in-line with your front leg (particularly if the toes point inwards as well) then it's easier to grab the leg. As I've said before, that's not to suggest it's unusable, but that it does often result in people being taken down easier than if it were not the case.

I don't know if that's the case?

 

[Discipulus]

OP's question was about his stance because he was getting hit high and low.

I'm wondering if his immediate reaction is to freeze and take the punches and not to move away?

Some of that just has to do with the fact that I'm not very mobile on my feet. I find it much harder to step away from punches than I do to stay in or near the pocket and avoid them or defend against them. In boxing, I'd rather roll my shoulders and move my head than step out, is what I'm saying. Plus, then I'd have to do all the hard work of getting back in the pocket to land my own punches again. :icon_lol:

 

[GoatyP]

Some of that just has to do with the fact that I'm not very mobile on my feet. I find it much harder to step away from punches than I do to stay in or near the pocket and avoid them or defend against them. In boxing, I'd rather roll my shoulders and move my head than step out, is what I'm saying. Plus, then I'd have to do all the hard work of getting back in the pocket to land my own punches again. :icon_lol:

Lol- I prefer to slug it out as well... However, I've been working on being more evasive and reactively exchanging.

 

[KO By Knee]

I counter-punch


Because of this though I stand absolutely text-book perfect, I drill foot-work and movements-steps more then anything at this point. Once you get more advanced you will be able to tell when a punch is coming to the head or to the body. Hands up is the best advice the corner can give you, keeps you in the action and keeps you from panicking. Every boxer is gonna run into a style that poses problems (I got destroyed buy a counter-jabber, and also a tough-as nails brawler) The trick though is to remember, it's sparring pick your shots and most importantly LEARN.


Edit: Also to my brawlers, who aren't very mobile. That's one reason why I drill foot-work so much, there's a lot of hard-core mexican style boxers in my gym and they are heavy hitters who come in very square. Get your foot-work up or i'll be coming for you ;DD

 

[JWolverine707]

Some of that just has to do with the fact that I'm not very mobile on my feet. I find it much harder to step away from punches than I do to stay in or near the pocket and avoid them or defend against them. In boxing, I'd rather roll my shoulders and move my head than step out, is what I'm saying. Plus, then I'd have to do all the hard work of getting back in the pocket to land my own punches again. :icon_lol:

Im working on this myself. I find myself uppercutting and hooking inside. I haverecently been working on circling out to set up a nice hook as i exit the pocket and it has worked nicely. Using your feet to stick and move as well as escape def frusterates your opponent more and forces him to be overly aggressive at times which opens up different punching lanes for you to utilize.

 

[barnowl]

The classic stance isn't "side-on" or at least, not as much so as being advertised. And it also was born from the days where boxers trained with wrestlers to enhance their strength. In fact, John L. Sullivan's trainer was a professional catch-wrestler. Boxers would have wrestlers TRY to take them down in these exercises, and being that this stance was so close to a traditional wrestling stance, they were able to learn the concept.

As for kicks, every kick has a punch counter. If you want to throw a lot of kicks there's a bit of difference, but there are also good defensively liable stances in Muay Thai, that don't require being squared up, head in the middle, and a reactive defense.

Besides, if a competent MMA fighter learns to box correctly AND bothrs to have a good ground game, then if you manage to take them down because you can't stand with them, all that'll end up happening is after getting beaten-up, you'll get choked-out.

So not surprised you knew this bit of history

 

[Sinister]

If one is going to stand for something, one should always be sure there's a leg to stand on.

 

[KylePulley]

Dude, Sinister works with MMA fighters all the time and is a grappler himself. If you'd read ANY of the stickies, you'd know that. Does your trolling know absolutely no bounds? He's a mod for pete's sake, you can't troll the mods.

EDIT: He has a legitimate reason for saying so. NEWS FLASH: Wrestling isn't absolutely necessary in MMA. GSP never wrestled a day in his life until he became an MMA fighter. And guess what, Nick Diaz actually wrestled in high school. So did Frank Mir and Eddie Bravo. How much do you think wrestling has helped any of the last three guys? How much do you think the lack of wrestling has hindered GSP?

By the way, this is coming from somebody who's grappling experience comes almost entirely from wrestling. What I do know about BJJ, I know from the 6 months I trained back in 2009 and from YouTube and Sherdog, along with various instructionals. I'm not dissing wrestling: It's my sport, and I love it to death, even if I don't necessarily agree with or particularly like the mentality behind it. It is not necessary for MMA.

I don't read the BIO's of all the people I post against.

If he is a grappler, he obviously hasn't grappled against a guy with a great wrestling base, and sub defense...

Wrestling is ABSOLUTELY NEEDED for mma...

ALL of the current Ufc champs have good or exceptional wrestling...(even if they are strikers, Ie. Aldo, Silva, Junior, all have great defensive wrestling)

Gsp may not have started wrestling, and may not have a wrestling base...but Gsp is a freak, and is an EXCEPTIONAL wrestler despite his lack of experience. And yes it has played a crucial part to his success.

If any of you believe wrestling is over rated, I suggest you get a colligiate wrestler to come in, with at least a blue belt in bjj, and dry hump you up and down the mat for an hour or 2. MMA rules..

I suspect sinisters must grappler, and striker, but not do both at the same time.

Wrestler becomes dangerous when you can get that top position, control, and punch.

In grappling class, I get man handled by certain people. That in mma class, I smother and just destroy on the ground...

I do apologise to sinister though, I always thought since he was so passionate about boxing, he was one of those die hard fans, that think boxing can still beat wrestling, bjj, etc.

Obviously he is not.

 

[KylePulley]

FWIW - Kyle just trolls on the notion that if I ban him it's because "see, I was right!! Sinister can't take being wrong so he banned me!!" and all that kind of dribble.

It's really not worth the energy even replying to his rhetoric, which only demonstrates how he doesn't even read what I post. Nor does he know the first thing about fighting.

That kid is a glowing reason to use the "ignore" feature.

Lol

I do read what you post, your heavily biased towards boxing. I do understand fighting.

I don't think you can take the fact that you may be wrong on somethings, and it deffently seems you have sort of online ego built up.

You already admitted yourself, that your an asshole. Since I'm a geuininly nice guy, were obviously going to butt heads.

I'm biased towards wrestling, and top control (because I'm good at it, and enjoy it) I'm sure your biased towards boxing for similar reasons, so once again another way we will butt heads.

You seem to take it all personal though, I attack your statements not you or try not too, although I admit sometimes arguing on here with people is quite frustrating and I sometimes lose my temper.

The point is, relax, we're all here to debate our ideas on fighting, mma, etc. I can learn from you, you can learn from me, all can learn from all.

Also I really don't see how you can ban me, the only rule I break, you break yourself. (ie. Hateful Comments)

 

[MisterT]

fighters won't learn how to box "correctly" because it doesnt translate into mma like that. It has to be modified.

That goes for all disciplines in MMA. Pure BJJ needs to be modified, Pure wrestling needs to be modified, etc, etc.

That being said, MMA fighters still lack "correct" boxing. Lackluster technique, no grasp of the concept of range, and incorrect footwork, are just some examples of the inefficient boxing seen in MMA.

Even if they could, they have to learn all disciplines which means they won't be of the same caliber as a professional boxer...when it comes to punching and boxing.

No one is asking them to be on the level of professional boxers. However, the things I listed earlier (range, footwork, technique) are basic building blocks of boxing that are drilled into the minds of new boxers the minute they start taking lessons.

You're telling me that it's unreasonable to expect MMA fighters to exhibit good footwork or technique simply because they have to take BJJ and wrestling lessons?

Footwork/technique/range are as integral to boxing as armbars are to BJJ. You never hear fans defend a MMA who doesn't know how to do an armbar by claiming he has other disciplines to learn. Why should basic boxing be any different?

 

[thirteen]

On the occasion I have been bothered with taking someone down when sparring it's never been by attacking their legs (double or single). It's always set up in a clinch and it's been pretty damn easy. (No offense intended).

 

[Discipulus]

On the occasion I have been bothered with taking someone down when sparring it's never been by attacking their legs (double or single). It's always set up in a clinch and it's been pretty damn easy. (No offense intended).

I always wondered, why don't more people clinch for the takedown? There's so many options from that position, for nakmuay, judoka, wrestlers--everybody. And yet everyone in MMA shoots for the double. Curious.

 

[devante]

I always wondered, why don't more people clinch for the takedown? There's so many options from that position, for nakmuay, judoka, wrestlers--everybody. And yet everyone in MMA shoots for the double. Curious.

i assume its a fear of being chopped up on the inside, i.e. short hooks,uppercuts, elbows and knees; most guys feel the shot is safer (if you don't get it) and easier to get (i.e. having to work through someone's strikes to get to his body).

if your clinch game isn't top notch, esp def/counters; you are going to get beat the f*ck up in the clinch. Less chance of that when your shooting...

 

[thirteen]

If I can get my hand on the back of someone's head and break their posture I'm 90% towards getting a takedown. My other arm is attacking for an over or underhook depending on the dynamics of the moment. It's very hard to throw anything when being rag-dolled around in a clinch unless you got a lot of experience.

Anyways I got into boxing for the punching, not to hug people lol.
Wrestling days ended long ago!

 

[devante]

If I can get my hand on the back of someone's head and break their posture I'm 90% towards getting a takedown. My other arm is attacking for an over or underhook depending on the dynamics of the moment. It's very hard to throw anything when being rag-dolled around in a clinch unless you got a lot of experience.

i get your point, and i support; what i am saying is some guys don't want to take that chance to get inside for one and secondly they aren't all that good, so they can't do the work they want to do once they get to that point. Esp after they have been picked off coming in and/or might be getting lit up intially in that clinch; guys who have a refined striking game can navigate this a bit better, guys who don't might be hesitant for the reasons i mentioned. Your obv someone w/a better all round skillset.

 

[td82394]

I don't read the BIO's of all the people I post against.

If he is a grappler, he obviously hasn't grappled against a guy with a great wrestling base, and sub defense...

Wrestling is ABSOLUTELY NEEDED for mma...

ALL of the current Ufc champs have good or exceptional wrestling...(even if they are strikers, Ie. Aldo, Silva, Junior, all have great defensive wrestling)

Gsp may not have started wrestling, and may not have a wrestling base...but Gsp is a freak, and is an EXCEPTIONAL wrestler despite his lack of experience. And yes it has played a crucial part to his success.

bjj, and dIf any of you believe wrestling is over rated, I suggest you get a colligiate wrestler to come in, with at least a blue belt inry hump you up and down the mat for an hour or 2. MMA rules..

I suspect sinisters must grappler, and striker, but not do both at the same time.

Wrestler becomes dangerous when you can get that top position, control, and punch.

In grappling class, I get man handled by certain people. That in mma class, I smother and just destroy on the ground...

I like how you argue against the GSP part, but not against the Diaz, Bravo, and Mir part. Guess what? All those guys wrestled and they all suck at it. Frank Mir was a Nevada State Champion, and he's only just now using his takedowns in fights. It's not because he'd rather be on bottom and get punched.

I also like how you said "at least blue belt level". And that's exactly why wrestling is overrated. Wrestling is good for MMA in the same sense that Tae Kwon Do/Karate is. A lot of the top fighters have a background in it, but at they end of the day, they need to cross train in other sports for it to be effective. But when you say that Karate isn't necessary for MMA, nobody bats an eye lid. But when you say wrestling isn't absolutely necessary, holy f*ck, you just started a God damn riot.

And by the way, when did discussing a type of boxing stance turn into a giant clusterf*ck about boxing for MMA? Let's just discuss the f*cking technique, all right? God damn.

 

[thirteen]

I agree Devante, also my wrestling skill set is much better than my very basic boxing skill set. Most times I've clinched up with someone it's been at their instigation (or laziness) and they 'think' too much and end up getting overwhelmed.

 

[devante]

I agree Devante, also my wrestling skill set is much better than my very basic boxing skill set. Most times I've clinched up with someone it's been at their instigation (or laziness) and they 'think' too much and end up getting overwhelmed.

most mma guys get pretty lazy in the clinch and often resort to it after they realize they can't strike w/u and can't eff shoot in on you; but the clinch is the one area you can't be lazy in, as you can get beat the f*ck up coming in, while your in there and while your getting out. Its why guys don't initiate it until they have to because they don't have the finer points of upperbody control and/or footwork, meaning they have issues obtaining it and maintaining. Esp when facing a guy who doesn't want to play that game w/u.

me personally i get on my bike and walk people into things, cut angles, use feints to land those quick clean shots and make them have to try to close the dist, try to keep me where they want WHILE getting picked off. Then when they finally get that position they aren't nearly as eff because they spent so much time trying to get to their area of specialty; now someone w/a very good wrestling set and a basic skillset and an acceptance of taking shots..will most likely stymie that and get the control to beat me up or throw me all over. But most guys don't have that combination, they either lack the striking acumen to get into position, or lack the wrestling acumen to take adv of the moments they have in the clinch (esp if they been chasing and getting potshotted). An no im not all that great, but i know that and take actions to act accordingly; the only thing is alot of mma guys aren't that great in the clinch either, they take it there when other options are taken away. You have exceptions; but its not the case w/most, look at most wrestlers, herman-simpson-evans-tate-dolloway-munoz-sonnen. Its not their first option, its what they take when the other less dangerous one doesn't work; an even then, they still are looking for that double or single.

and the thing that drives my point home, randy couture; when facing a faded, but still dangerous james toney. The greco roman mma god went to what; the shot, because he didn't want to take any chance in catching any sort of heat from a guy who is known for his upperbody movement, timing, ability to catch and counter w/shots to the inside. Even randy knew the dangers of playing that game...an randy has fought other strikers and he had no hesitancy to work for that clinch, well maybe a little; but he didn't even attempt it w/toney, why. Cause toney is one dimensional or cause that one dimension was too dangerous for him to apply his strength, which is the clinch; an he has used it or tried to against lyoto-brock-gonzaga-rizzo-belfort-liddel-sylvia-etc, but wouldn't even test it cus he knew what COULD happen against a boxer who is a danger in that mid/inside range.

ex-ronda rousey is so eff at getting the clinch and so good once she gets it, miesha tate isn't; which is why against people good in the clinch she shys away and looks for the shot, because she lacks the standup not to get lit up and isn't good enough in there to get an opp down quickly or not get countered and beat up in trying to control or takedown her opp. Rousey doesn't have the standup either, but she is so confident she will pay the price cus once she gets it, its your ass; look what she did to stratford bud and tate when she clinched them up, tossed and armbarred. Look what happened to miesha, she got outworked by kaufman and roughed up, thrown and almost subbed by akano and got picked apart trying to follow coenen.

 

[Sinister]

I like how you argue against the GSP part, but not against the Diaz, Bravo, and Mir part. Guess what? All those guys wrestled and they all suck at it. Frank Mir was a Nevada State Champion, and he's only just now using his takedowns in fights. It's not because he'd rather be on bottom and get punched.

I also like how you said "at least blue belt level". And that's exactly why wrestling is overrated. Wrestling is good for MMA in the same sense that Tae Kwon Do/Karate is. A lot of the top fighters have a background in it, but at they end of the day, they need to cross train in other sports for it to be effective. But when you say that Karate isn't necessary for MMA, nobody bats an eye lid. But when you say wrestling isn't absolutely necessary, holy f*ck, you just started a God damn riot.

And by the way, when did discussing a type of boxing stance turn into a giant clusterf*ck about boxing for MMA? Let's just discuss the f*cking technique, all right? God damn.

That's one of the great paradoxes of MMA and the fans or hobbyists, basically, people who know a LITTLE bit of how to fight, or are in the learning process but still attempt to have strong opinions. According to many, one MUST cross-train, particularly in Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling, and BJJ. But how often do we see "BJJ is useless in MMA unless it's MODIFIED" threads with big whirlwind arguments? Or the same about wrestling? There's a definite discrimination where striking arts are concerned because on one hand according to the masses, most of them are bullshit, and on the other-hand, none of them apply to MMA just because takedowns and grappling are allowed. And all of these opinions formed with barely an understanding of the art in-question.

It's extremely rare that anyone who argues AGAINST correct boxing tactics actually ASKS what those are. But rather assumes that it's synonymous with say, Floyd Mayweather Jr., who has one particular style as demonstrated earlier in this thread. I don't know where this resistance to learning the nuances of an Art comes from, but I wish people would realize it definitely doesn't make them seem smarter. Of course grappling and striking need to be trained accordingly for MMA, to suggest otherwise is foolish. But to discount notions of an Art WHILE ignorant to that art is even more foolish.

 

[panamaican]

If I can get my hand on the back of someone's head and break their posture I'm 90% towards getting a takedown. My other arm is attacking for an over or underhook depending on the dynamics of the moment. It's very hard to throw anything when being rag-dolled around in a clinch unless you got a lot of experience.

Anyways I got into boxing for the punching, not to hug people lol.
Wrestling days ended long ago!

True but many stand up arts give clinch work at least a basic overview. Over and under hooks, body locks and foot sweep takedowns. So, the basic defenses are somewhat prevalent.

The wrestlers have the most experience with single and double leg takedowns and finding good wrestling training partners is difficult outside of an MMA gym or going back to college.

So your opponent is more likely to aware of the clinch entries and how to defend them vs. a good shot.

That reflects my personal experience as well. The clinch I'd seen and drilled (somewhat) many times before I ever sparred someone who tried it. The shot? Never saw/drilled it until the first time it put me on my back. I doubt I'm alone among those who didn't wrestle in college or high school.