Strengh & Conditioning for BJJ

[BJJ in Chicago]

Leo, I'm really happy to have you here on the board. I hope you are able to spend some time here and post. It'd be so nice to have another educated professional here (not that I am, but there are a few others).

 

[HomerPlata]

Shouldn't need S&C? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. There is a reason why pretty much every professional athlete does strength and conditioning and that reason is IT WORKS. If Marcelo were to apply it in some fashion to his routine he would be whooping even more ass. Jiu Jitsu is in its infancy and there are a lot of non-athletes who have become involved in the sport that dont actually understand what it takes to become elite at any sport.

But, in principal, he has a point, right?

 

[cooltoon999]

Guys, i'm sorry for starting a flame war. This is what I meant:

It's brazilian jiujitsu. From my perspective, it's a martial art that prides itself in using patience and leverage to beat your opponent.

So when people tell me they do S&C routines specifically for BJJ, it kind of confuses me. Because from what I understand it's a martial art where you shouldn't need extra strength or conditioning to combat your opponent, it's all about technique and leverage.

And I'm not just talking about competition. If you have a 5-10 minute duel scored on points, of course extra strength is going to benefit you, you can afford to blast it! But if you were in say a real submissions only match, where you could roll for hours if you wanted, is that extra conditioning going to help you? Because after a while it's all going to come down to what techniques are going to be played and the timing in which they are executed, ie. mental strength over physical.

I'm a beginner, 4-5 months, in BJJ (my credibility just flew out the window, I know), and I noticed something while sparring with a purple belt in my class. He'd pull guard, and from there let me do my stuff. But by the end of the round, I was a sweaty mess and he was still fresh. Why? Because he'd let me try to control him, but he was so nimble and focused on his techniques, it allowed him to not waste energy and just go with the flow.

Ex. I would pass guard, he'd trap me in half butterfly and sweep me like I weighed nothing. And i'd work to regain position again. No one tapped anyone and it was a GREAT learning experience for me.

I watched him spar with the other blue and white belts and he'd do the exact same thing. By the end of the class, he was still walking around offering to help or spar, and most of the class was sitting down sipping water.

Anyways I want to hear your counter points, I enjoy critical debates like this.

 

[cooltoon999]

Oh and on a side note: I do S&C workouts for about 10 hours a week (5 times a week, 2 hours at a time) , so i'm not putting it down. I wholely agree with the benefits it brings.

 

[mtruitt76]

And I'm not just talking about competition. If you have a 5-10 minute duel scored on points, of course extra strength is going to benefit you, you can afford to blast it! But if you were in say a real submissions only match, where you could roll for hours if you wanted, is that extra conditioning going to help you? Because after a while it's all going to come down to what techniques are going to be played and the timing in which they are executed, ie. mental strength over physical.

Think that one through. If you are in a match that could last for hours conditioning would play a huge part. Any match lasting that long would indicate an equal skill level. The winner in that match would inevitably come down to who was the better conditioned athlete, the one who could still keep attempting techniques.

Just look at BJ Penn as an example. How many of his loses have come from someone being technically superior and how many have come from him no longer having the energy to apply his techniques.

BJJ is not MMA, but some correlations still exist. BJJ is a physical activity and any technique requires a level of physical exertion. You can reach a point where you are so physically drained that you can no longer execute techniques. While being mentally strong will allow you to endure longer there are limits to mental strength. For example no matter how mentally strong an individual is they would not be able to run a marathon without some training. At some point the body will quit no matter how strong the will is.

The ideal that physical attributes are irrelevant in the application of BJJ is a myth the Gracie family used to market their martial art. When facing an opponent who is significantly less skilled than you there is some truth to their assertion, but against an opponent of similar or some skill physical attributes influence the outcome.

 

[BJJ in Chicago]

Think that one through. If you are in a match that could last for hours conditioning would play a huge part. Any match lasting that long would indicate an equal skill level. The winner in that match would inevitably come down to who was the better conditioned athlete, the one who could still keep attempting techniques.

Just look at BJ Penn as an example. How many of his loses have come from someone being technically superior and how many have come from him no longer having the energy to apply his techniques.

BJJ is not MMA, but some correlations still exist. BJJ is a physical activity and any technique requires a level of physical exertion. You can reach a point where you are so physically drained that you can no longer execute techniques. While being mentally strong will allow you to endure longer there are limits to mental strength. For example no matter how mentally strong an individual is they would not be able to run a marathon without some training. At some point the body will quit no matter how strong the will is.

The ideal that physical attributes are irrelevant in the application of BJJ is a myth the Gracie family used to market their martial art. When facing an opponent who is significantly less skilled than you there is some truth to their assertion, but against an opponent of similar or some skill physical attributes influence the outcome.

QFT. well said sir.

 

[The Lad]

Looks interesting, the use of english and spelling could be better though.

I'll mention this in my other mma forum, looks interesting.

 

[tri4ben]

Thanks for the insight Leo and don't get discouraged when other people disagree with you.

 

[akharon]

I'm a beginner, 4-5 months, in BJJ (my credibility just flew out the window, I know), and I noticed something while sparring with a purple belt in my class. He'd pull guard, and from there let me do my stuff. But by the end of the round, I was a sweaty mess and he was still fresh. Why? Because he'd let me try to control him, but he was so nimble and focused on his techniques, it allowed him to not waste energy and just go with the flow.

Imagine you have power meters like a video game. The purple has more efficient technique, so his meter goes down more slowly. S&C makes your meter longer, so you're able to fend off attacks better. Will it make you school a purple? Hardly. However, you'll have more time on the mat, and that time will help you advance faster. Furthermore, in the no time limit street fight argument, you having a longer power meter (so to speak) will allow you to persevere and overcome more times than just using technique alone. Last, you have a quote from Karl Gotch, considered one of the best catch wrestlers ever: "Conditioning is the best hold."

 

[Leo M]

Looks interesting, the use of english and spelling could be better though.

I'll mention this in my other mma forum, looks interesting.

The Lad,

I caught a few of my own typos after I submitted it, and I'm sorry to have missed them. I literally submitted it to Tim from the ICU where I was staying with my Dad (who is ok now)... I should have a little more time for proofing with the next ones. Thank you for the feedback.

Leo

 

[Leo M]

Thanks for the insight Leo and don't get discouraged when other people disagree with you.

Tri4ben,

There is a difference between disagree and dislike, and disagreement is good - it fosters learning and experimenting. So far any criticism here or on other forums has been in the spirit of advancement, which is great.

S&C coaches, in my experience can be very close minded, and lash out when someone does something differently than they do. I try to stay far away from that the best I can. I have confidence in my methods but recognize they even while they may be effective, they may be proven to be less than optimal. When there is enough evidence (not opinion) to establish that, I'll be first in line to change my methods.

Leo

 

[CAnklerank]

Hi Leo,

I'm looking forward to reading more on this series of articles. While i understand that you will be discussing the S&C needs of BJJ practicioners in general once you identify what is needed through the testing process, will you also discuss the tapering of said S&C work in the runup to competition?

Thanks

 

[SylarNY]

BTW, I've trained with Marcelo.

He lifts weights daily.

 

[KMisajet]

It's brazilian jiujitsu, you shouldn't need S&C.

Marcelo Garcia doesn't do it, and he's Marcelo Garcia.

That is the dumbest shit I've ever heard. Jimi Hendrix didn't practice for x number of hours every day so why should I? Some people are naturally gifted at what they do. The other 99.9% of us have to work our asses off. S and C definitely helps in BJJ. I am relatively new to BJJ, but have been in the weight room consistently for a year. The weight training helps everything. It is a lot harder for guys to roll with 205 pounds of pure muscle vs. rolling with 205 pounds of cookie dough. S and C helps everything from your base to your subs.

 

[GotDaWork]

My BJJ condition training is the best



1. Attended BJJ


its worked out so far because Ive been getting better and better since I've been doing this.

 

[JRT6]

Tri4ben,
S&C coaches, in my experience can be very close minded, and lash out when someone does something differently than they do. I try to stay far away from that the best I can. Leo

Ain't that the truth. It's that way in other professional training circles too which is why I try to stay away from the personalities and pointless debates and just try to focus on the facts and what could work for me.

I'm limited by age related body changes but if anything that frees me up to experiment and to truely tailor my own programs.

 

[boisefireman]

One thing that no one has talked about is over training or what Steve Maxwell was talking to me about called over reaching. It is the first stages of overtraining. Alot of Americans me included until resently, over schedule workouts and don't listen to their bodies. It is easy to over do it just because it's " back and bi day" or it's my cardio day. It will slowly make you regress.

 

[JRT6]

One thing that no one has talked about is over training or what Steve Maxwell was talking to me about called over reaching. It is the first stages of overtraining. Alot of Americans me included until resently, over schedule workouts and don't listen to their bodies. It is easy to over do it just because it's " back and bi day" or it's my cardio day. It will slowly make you regress.

That's the story of my life.

 

[rjthakid]

John said, "we call them 'guywho' statistics". Everyone looked around, and waited for John to explain.

John said, yeah, "We all know a 'guywho' smoked three packs a day and lived to be 100. We all know a 'guywho' eats pizza and ice cream daily but stays ripped. We know a 'guywho' quit school when he was 14 and is now a millionaire". This always stuck with me.

Profound.

 

[cooltoon999]

Ok I'm starting to see what you guys mean with conditioning. What I don't really look eye to eye on is that won't you condition yourself through actually rolling? Ie. build that "power meter" through actually just rolling with your teammates?

What about strength training then? I still firmly believe that you shouldn't need to rely on strength to partake in BJJ. Can anyone provide some instances where extra strength would be helpful?

Also whoever was talking about the "back and bi" days is obviously not doing a S&C routine, sounds more like a bodybuilding thing to me.

On a side note: Overtraining is actually very hard to acheive, most people like to throw that word around as an excuse to not put out and work hard.

The symptoms of it include:

* Persistent muscle soreness
* Elevated resting heart rate
* Increased susceptibility to infections
* Increased incidence of injuries
* Irritability
* Depression
* Loss of motivation
* Insomnia
* Decreased appetite
* Weight loss

If your just feeling tired and worn out, that's all it is, it's actually difficult for you to achieve that point of actually being 'overtrained'.