Media Stipe Miocic Humbles Francis Ngannou

[RJK]

Heavyweight is not a different game - its where you go when you want to fight older, lesser skilled, less athletic fighters. Thats why DC, the very same guy, can absolutely WALK THROUGH heavyweight, including summarily knocking out the champ. It has the oldest average age of any division. Are you familiar with any athletic sport in the world where having the oldest competitors is a good thing (read: its not)

You're mixing up examples where DC artificially reduced his weight to fit an arbitrary weight limit, compared to when he fought at heavyweight with others willing to fight at their natural weight.

I'm personally in favour of a free weight division, as it would really highlight who is only successful because they're good at weight cutting. Of course DC will get worse at weight cutting the older he gets - and we already know he had health issues when he was younger with weight cutting!

 

[Deleted member 510653]

What exactly makes you think Francis has improved since that fight?

They keep saying that "he's improved, he's improved" actually he's the exact same since before the Stipe and Lewis fights

 

[Ibm]

I want to see this rematch badly except I want to see Francis actually engage. If he does, he wins.

 

[rjmbrd]

You're mixing up examples where DC artificially reduced his weight to fit an arbitrary weight limit, compared to when he fought at heavyweight with others willing to fight at their natural weight.

I'm personally in favour of a free weight division, as it would really highlight who is only successful because they're good at weight cutting. Of course DC will get worse at weight cutting the older he gets - and we already know he had health issues when he was younger with weight cutting!

DC wrestled as a 5th year senior at 184lbs. He wasn't remotely skinny either, he was lean and thickly muscled.

He had a visible sloppy belly weighing in BONE DRY at 205lbs.

Cormier is not remotely the size of a heavyweight, he's the size of middleweight.

That is how bad heavyweight MMA is. Guys in their 40's can decide not to cut weight, show up visibly chubby, and still beat everyones ass.

 

[BushidoMalik]

Stipe mauls him again,no matter what version

That's DUMB, we know that TDD is one of the easier traits to learn so you are telling me that Stipe does is as easy and "mauls" Francis? that's a lie. I'm willing to bet my house that Stipe gets in trouble this time around. I am not saying Stipe will win but the first fight was a clinic, not a mauling. I definitely think Francis has at least a 50% chance to take that fight in rounds 1,2 or 3. And Francis fans won't be the scared ones entering the fight.

 

[rjmbrd]

Ok then quit typing cause you’re not making much sense and we’re not going to agree. We’re worlds apart on this. Lemme know when Jones moves to HW and wins to help support your point. I’ll even give you one of the GOATS to prove your point.

Why would Jones move to heavyweight when he's 1) already the literal world champion at 205 and 2) already owns two wins over the #1 contender and former world champion of heavyweight and 3) explicitly, publicly campaigned to fight Ngaggou but was told they wouldn't negotiate the pay?

FFS you are truly terrible at discussing this stuff.

 

[StoneWT]

Y'all are forgetting that Frank is the male R. Honda. Dude is really good at one thing, but he is too much of a rock to learn grappling. Ronda couldn't learn striking and Big Frank can't learn grappling. All of this 2.0 stuff is nonsense. Yes, most fighters "could" learn grappling, but Frank isn't most fighters. It's like when people kept saying Ronda just needed a different camp. Most people would benefit from a better camp, but Ronda basically had a learning disability.

Plus, Frank has psychological damage. He might trick himself into thinking it was a fluke, but a second Stipe loss sends him into Rousey mental territory ala the Nunes loss.

 

[RJK]

DC wrestled as a 5th year senior at 184lbs. He wasn't remotely skinny either, he was lean and thickly muscled.

He had a visible sloppy belly weighing in BONE DRY at 205lbs.

Cormier is not remotely the size of a heavyweight, he's the size of middleweight.

That is how bad heavyweight MMA is. Guys in their 40's can decide not to cut weight, show up visibly chubby, and still beat everyones ass.

(1) If heavyweight was so easy to dominate then all those better skilled fighters at LHW would simply stop cutting weight to get more glory and money at heavyweight (2) Weight cutting isn't a sound method to judge athletic ability. (3) You're confusing "height" with "size"

At this point you're just wasting everyone's time by taking the losing position in an old argument.

 

[rjmbrd]

(1) If heavyweight was so easy to dominate then all those better skilled fighters at LHW would simply stop cutting weight to get more glory and money at heavyweight

I'll say it a third and final time. If you can make 185lbs, you don't want so spend a 20+ fight career against heavyweights because over time you are going to suffer substantially more brain damage. The skill gap doesn't change the fact that when you DO lose, or get hurt, it will cause you far more head trauma.

This is common sense. If you don't understand the above, stop here, and read it again. Really think about it.

You're confusing "height" with "size"

No I am not. DC was #2 in the country out of OSU as a 5th year senior in his 20's, wrestling 184lbs.

There is no version of reality that Stipe Miocic can weigh 184lbs, or Werdum, or Ngannou. It is literally not possible. They are not similarly sized humans with Daniel.

DC however, can be chubby at 205lbs, or legitimately fat at heavyweight.

A fat, 40+ year old guy on his third athletic career can still run through heavyweight, despite being capable of making middleweight and light heavyweight. Thats how bad heavyweight is.

The heavyweight division has the oldest average age and lowest roster depth (not up for debate, this is the numbers signed which is public information) from 135lbs up.

 

[RJK]

I'll say it a third and final time. If you can make 185lbs, you don't want so spend a 20+ fight career against heavyweights because over time you are going to suffer substantially more brain damage. The skill gap doesn't change the fact that when you DO lose, or get hurt, it will cause you far more head trauma.

This is common sense. If you don't understand the above, stop here, and read it again. Really think about it.




No I am not. DC was #2 in the country out of OSU as a 5th year senior in his 20's, wrestling 184lbs.

There is no version of reality that Stipe Miocic can weigh 184lbs, or Werdum, or Ngannou. It is literally not possible. They are not similarly sized humans with Daniel.

DC however, can be chubby at 205lbs, or legimiately fat at heavyweight.

A fat, 40+ year old guy on his third athletic career can still run through heavyweight, despite being capable of making middleweight and light heavyweight. Thats how bad heavyweight is.

The heavyweight division has the oldest average and and lowest roster depth (not up for debate, this is the literal numbers signed which is public information) from 135lbs up.

Okay dude.

 

[Karuzo]

They keep saying that "he's improved, he's improved" actually he's the exact same since before the Stipe and Lewis fights

I mean he might have but there is literally no proof of it lol.

We haven't seen his TDD or his ground game since.

We already knew he was capable of KOing people in the 1st round.

 

[Greg House]

it was a tough fight,that’s what I’m saying.

90% think it was easy, is ridiculous.

Miocic won but suffered.

Such power. If that punch had landed on his chin it would have been the end

 

[Grenades]

Why would Jones move to heavyweight when he's 1) already the literal world champion at 205 and 2) already owns two wins over the #1 contender and former world champion of heavyweight and 3) explicitly, publicly campaigned to fight Ngaggou but was told they wouldn't negotiate the pay?

FFS you are truly terrible at discussing this stuff.

No you’re just not the best at comparative analytics but peace be with you.

 

[Grenades]

(1) If heavyweight was so easy to dominate then all those better skilled fighters at LHW would simply stop cutting weight to get more glory and money at heavyweight (2) Weight cutting isn't a sound method to judge athletic ability. (3) You're confusing "height" with "size"

At this point you're just wasting everyone's time by taking the losing position in an old argument.

I’ve said this more times than I can count but they just don’t get it. Respect.

 

[The Fat Mexican]

Francis is impressive, but he's too basic for crafty guys like Stipe or Cormier

 

[Ecstasy]

Who says there is a 2.0 version of Ngannou? We haven't seen him in the cage long enough to determine if he has improved at all and he looked like shit against Lewis.

In his last fight he came in even more muscular and ripped than ever before. Packing on more muscle is not conducive to building cardio. Overeem slimmed down a ton and his cardio improved significantly.

I see no evidence of that at all with Ngannou.

You're telling me that him stuffing TDs/KOing the best wrestlers in UFC history in Cain/Blaydes (statistically they have the most TDs in HW history) isn't proof he's improved?

Also his performance vs JDS we seen much more patient Ngannou who utilized leg kicks and timed the KO rather than just rushing in as he knew the threat JDS posed.

Am I saying he'll beat Stipe this time? No. But he's definitely MUCH different than the Ngannou who faced Stipe last time out and I won't be surprised if he's the favorite going into the rematch,

 

[Grenades]

That's DUMB, we know that TDD is one of the easier traits to learn so you are telling me that Stipe does is as easy and "mauls" Francis? that's a lie. I'm willing to bet my house that Stipe gets in trouble this time around. I am not saying Stipe will win but the first fight was a clinic, not a mauling. I definitely think Francis has at least a 50% chance to take that fight in rounds 1,2 or 3. And Francis fans won't be the scared ones entering the fight.

Agreed Francis fans have nothing to lose entering the fight. Stipe fans have a legacy they want to see protected. A legacy that already includes dominating Francis.

 

[rjmbrd]

If heavyweight was so easy to dominate then all those better skilled fighters at LHW would simply stop cutting weight to get more glory and money at heavyweight

I’ve said this more times than I can count but they just don’t get it. Respect.

Jon Jones: Give me more money to fight at heavyweight.

UFC: No.

Thanks for visiting my TED talk called real world examples directly counter to your point happening as a current event. You guys are candidates for r/Selfawarewolves

 

[nately]

I don't see Stipe ever fighting Ngannou again. He will "retire" if he's left with no other options and perhaps come back if an easier opponent becomes champion a la GSP.

 

[g*r*b]

You're telling me that him stuffing TDs/KOing the best wrestlers in UFC history in Cain/Blaydes (statistically they have the most TDs in HW history) isn't proof he's improved?

Well if he doesn't, I will. Yes, it isn't proof. The first time Blaydes faced Ngannou, he only succeeded in two of six takedown attempts. So Francis was able to stuff a lot of Curtis's "best wrestling" years before Miocic humbled him. And Cain may be an amazing wrestler, but his bullrushing style inevitably puts him into peril with a guy like Ngannou — as he put it, "I stood a little too close too early".

See, it isn't simply wrestling that's the issue. It's HOW you get to the wrestling phase that's key. Blaydes and Velasquez have rather blunt and battering approaches to it. What Stipe did was more sly, relying on reactive takedowns. It's like the difference between leading with punches and counterpunching. Very different style.