steroids and sport

[Sean S]

Wow. Good post Entropy.

A former classmate of mine worked in an intensive care facility for people with kidney failure. The vast majority of patients? Poor people who drank and took OTC painkillers...like asprin.

Anywhooooo...I'm all for steriod use. I dont think anyone has the right to tell another person what he can or cannot put in his body, so long as the person taking steriods does not become a burden to society. It is sort of the same argument I use when talking about bikers wearing helmets..it should be your choice, but if your brain bag is damaged then you pay for it.

I would say however that the NFL has a vested interest in limiting roid use. Players have gotten so large and strong that injuries are becoming an ever bigger part of the game.

But again I think there really two question being asked here:

Is it cheating?

Should they be legal?

The first you really can't make an argument against because they are deemed illegal in sports.

The second is probably what should be argued.

 

[Rjkd12]

Entropy, your post is alright in theory, but it doesn't work. We cannot do whatever our god given rights are because people cannot be trusted enough. Why not allow people to do any drug they want? Why not let people sell cocaine in the streets as a way to wake up and opium at night to go to sleep? Why not let people carry guns around everywhere just as long as they don't break the law of homicide? Things like that don't work. You need to limit people and make laws for people to live in a working society. Amsterdam legalized marijuana and anybody who says that works is crazy. You go to anybody saying "buy good hash here" and ask them for ecstasy they have it for you. Same with cocaine. Prostitution is legal in Thailand, and that doesn't work either. Getting a 12 year old illegal girl is just as easy as an unwanted 18 year old. You need to implement laws. The people will always take a mile if you give them a foot.

I think the laws are fine. Only thing I do not like is how steroids books are next to drug and alcohol abuse books and how they are so tightly coupled to regularly abused drugs. Other than that they are fine. If they were legal many more people would take them and then many more people would be getting hurt with them. You aspirin example is perfect, it seems harmless, I KNOW it is more harmless than ingesting test and look how many people get hurt? Think about how many problems there would be if a little bottle of test was next to the aspirin container?

The way it is set up is if you know what you are doing, don't blatantly juice like mad, don't sell the stuff to make huge profit, you are basically ok. All the big bodybuilders use, and they are not arrested daily. Its kinda a don't ask don't tell scenario. When people get caught its normally because they were selling them or doing something else. Smoking a joint in your basement while watching family guy will not hurt anybody. How many times have you heard people getting caught doing that? VERY FEW! Most have either HUGE parties or they sell the drug. The law is kinda set up so if you are not hurting anybody you are fine.

If you ask if it is cheating how can you logically say it isn't? Comon. Its against the rules. If the rules said you cannot wear shoes, wearing shoes is illegal. It is very black and white. Now, morally is a different question because of the high usage and that is where the discussion comes in. Sometimes it is morally ok to break the rules in a sport (such as discreet, minor hooking in hockey) other time it is not. I think we would all morally agree it is legal in professional bodybuilding since literally 100% of the guys are on drugs. I think we would all agree that it is morally wrong to use them at an amature or high school powerlifting meet where nobody really knows about drugs and its all fun and games. What about the sports in between?

At most they should be legal with a prescription and mandatory doctor visits for blood work. But then you would have to make them more legal in sports. How can you have this drug that improves performance legal, yet not legal in any sports? It would just increase their usage more often. So I think the laws are fine.

 

[the_sickness]

But again I think there really two question being asked here:

Is it cheating?

Should they be legal?

In a way yes, in a way no. Depends on your view of cheating. Steroids are testosterone which is already in the male body. Most supplements are also things already found in the human body. So is the person that takes steroids wrong for doing th same thing as the person that takes supplements? In my opinion no. Steroids have the same purpose as supplements, except are much better at doing what they do. Think about it, for the same price would you rather drive a station wagon or a ferrari?

And should they be legal? Most definately. I dont think sports morality should be a reason to make a drug illegal that has been proven by medical FACT to have complete turnaround of muscle wasting for people with diseases like aids. And also shown that once patients with MS are administered steroids, they no longer exhibit symptoms. AAAand you cant forget about the new ways steroids are being used in the anti-aging field. I'll definately be on when Im 60 . Alchohol & tobacco ARE legal simply because the government makes tax money off of them. But do they have any health benefits? How many people do YOU KNOW that have died from alchohol or cigarettes in some way.......then tell me how many people YOU KNOW that have died from using steroids. I say they make them legal with an age limit of 21 just like alchohol. And that they suggest you go to the doctor for regular blood checkups. Shit most steroids in the U.S. now are made by U.S. or Canada underground labs so its not like steroid users are supporting terrorist drug rings. Arent there more things to worry about in the world today like hmmm IRAQ, TERRORISM, HURRICAN RELIEF, METH LABS, NUKES.

Not directing that solely towards you bro, just everyone in general :icon_chee

 

[Jimmy Cerra]

I just want to say that I'm strange. I would never ever take steroids for gaining muscle mass. Hell, I don't even like supplements because it feels like cheating to me! And I have never take pain killers except for when I had my wisdom teeth removed. Unless my body isn't healthy because of an abnormality, I don't want to mess with my body's homeostasis.

Of course, I am selfish too. If I win, I don't want to share the reason with some chemist or drug company. Using steroids means I wasn't good enough on my own to achieve what I wanted. That is more depressing to me than losing. (Of course I still hate losing too, but at least I still have my dignity.)

 

[ENTROPY]

Point blank: If your employer prohibits a certain substance and you continue to use it, you are in violation of that employment agreement. How is taking steroids in, again for example, in baseball any different? Why are sport considered the exception to the rule?

Your implication is one of principle; however in this case, it does not adequately address the issue given its irrelevance.

In baseball, the employers which includes owners, coaches, and others, were clearly aware of the steroid use, but chose to turn a blind eye and in certain cases, encouraged it for the obvious benefits derived from steroids. As such the employer vs. employee implication lacks critical relevance.

Why haven

 

[cockysprinter]

charlie francis has mentioned what he thinks should be done about steroids. to ensure a level playing field and minimize danger, the new steroids laws could work something like:

-legal
-males cannot get them unless theyu are at least 22 years of age
-a doctor determines whether or not an athlete may get a perscription
-the athlete will be tested often to make sure drug dosages dont interfere with the bodys normality.
-should an athlete be discovered to have used steroids outside of these rules, they will be banned for some amount of time.
-if an athlete is tested and it is discovered that dangerous results are occuring, the athlete will be banned for a certain amount of time.

in this way, the aim is to protect the athlete and ensure a level playing field. also, incidences of incorrect and illegal steroid use should be minimized since athletes will have a natural proression towards correct steroid use.

 

[my big toe]

I normally wouldn

 

[peregrine]

Then why does the IWF mandate two year bans? I'd honestly be interested to find out how much gains you keep long after a cycle, I can't imagine it would be that much, especially in the case of the lifter I was talking about, who hasn't competed seriously in almost 10 years.

depends on the drug. minimal to something.

edit- btw i didn't see this but there area lot of substances that are legal to buy that will give you incredible gains. and i'm not talking about creatine, or protein powder.

 

[peanut butter]

entropy, you say supplements will surpass the benefits of steroids in the coming future, how so?

 

[Rjkd12]

charlie francis has mentioned what he thinks should be done about steroids. to ensure a level playing field and minimize danger, the new steroids laws could work something like:

-legal
-males cannot get them unless theyu are at least 22 years of age
-a doctor determines whether or not an athlete may get a perscription
-the athlete will be tested often to make sure drug dosages dont interfere with the bodys normality.
-should an athlete be discovered to have used steroids outside of these rules, they will be banned for some amount of time.
-if an athlete is tested and it is discovered that dangerous results are occuring, the athlete will be banned for a certain amount of time.

in this way, the aim is to protect the athlete and ensure a level playing field. also, incidences of incorrect and illegal steroid use should be minimized since athletes will have a natural proression towards correct steroid use.

The main problem with this is I think athletes will still do illegal things to gain an edge. If you allow a man to have double the averge test in his system he will find a way to triple it and have the test only detect double. With the availablity highschoolers and whatnot will have an easier time getting it. Plus one of the reasons why they don't test more for steroids is the fact that it is so expensive. I think it works nice in theory, but we'll have the same problems just on another level.

 

[Rjkd12]

Also entropy, you didn't comment on what I had to say, I'd appreciate something.

You say that there are no health concerns. Are you joking? If used correctly there are no health problems. I will agree, but the same goes for alcohol. Then you comment on deaths by alcohol, I will assume that is from alcohol misuse/abuse. Same with steroids. The problem with steroids are that if you take too much one day you don't puke or get a bad hangover. Your testicles can retract or shrink. You can stop growth plates from continuing to grow. A mistake by a teenager who snooped through his brothers dresser can permanantly cause him problems for the rest of his life.

One story was this father was using a steroid cream, something he just rubbed on and he absorbed the test through his skin. He had a son who went through puberty at 6 or something because of bodily contact with is father and him crawling on the mats that his father worked out on. This isn't a harmless thing.

Your agument is false. Almost everyting is ok and not unhealthy if used correctly. Moderate cocaine use will not hurt anyone, Freud was a large advocate of it and he seemed to accomplish a lot. That doesn't mean cocaine should be legal. Steroids are not without health problems. You are talking about some perfect world. The argument that it has some health benifits with older people, so do pain killers. If you are not an older person or someone who recently had surgury that doesn't mean you can take those drugs and be ok.

You again talk about how it isn't cheating. I don't see how you can't say it totally is. I gave an example in my above post. This isn't black and white. The question is, is it morally ok to break this rule.

 

[eljamaiquino]

Oh you are completely right about that. I can't deny that there are and always be loop holes. And actually, steroids have been banned since... I want to say 1993. It's just that enforcment has been nothing but ridiculous. You know like telling someone months in advance of a test.

No. Steroids without a prescription were illegal in the US, but steroids actually were not banned by SPORTS ORGANIZATIONS, like the NBA and MLB. Part of the previous Players' Union agreement was that players actually COULD NOT be tested for steroids. This was all the way up to 2004.

The legality government wise, and the acceptability in the org are two different things. For example, Ephedra is now banned by the FDA, but it is NOT banned by the NBA or MLB.

Plus, If I live in DR, or Venezuela, they're not illegal there, so its not my fault of American players can't use.

 

[ENTROPY]

Also entropy, you didn't comment on what I had to say, I'd appreciate something.

Sorry, I didn

 

[Chad Hamilton]

Entropy's posts are Olympic lifts for my brain.

Thank you.

 

[ENTROPY]

Good to see that someone appreciates them.

 

[Rjkd12]

Entropy. Yes I have been to Holland. I have walked through the red light district and have walked the streets of a few cities, the most common one everyone will know is Amsterdam. Drugs are very popular there and it is not hard to get any drugs you want. Dateline even did a show and had people ask for ecstasy and mushrooms and there was no difficulty in getting them. The fact that you state this shows you do not know your stuff. Have you been there? Do you know anything about it? Are you willing to say anything to prove a point regardless if it is true or not?

I stated about prostitution in Thailand, not Vegas. Just because it semi-works in Vegas doesn't not mean it will work ok everywhere. I do not have any information on prostitution in Vegas and therefore cannot argue about it. Apparently you have no problem arguing things even if you don't know about them (Holland, above). Since you missed the fact I was talking about Thailand you do obviously do not hold yourself up to the standards you hold others to. I am also getting this from you stating that there are a lot of aspirin problems an no steroid deaths. I only stated that to compare the two you would need to have steroids legal and as accessible as aspirin and see how often problems occur. You just love to list your little fact about how many problems aspirin causes.

Now, I will not argue like this with you. You are more willing to throw around absurd ideas just to prove your point rather than come to a good conclusion. You either stated that all drugs should be legal and people should be able to carry around firearms for one of two reasons. First being you are just trying to prove your point and will say anything, or second, you are a complete moron. Why not move to Mexico or even a third world country where you can do anything? You are not forced to live in such a well built society.

I hope the people on this board are not swayed by your vast amount of bullshit that you sling. I think you could equally defend steroid banning and the banning of all drugs and having people live in a very 1984 type society if you wanted to. You are not looking for the truth and a good realistic answer, you just run your mouth like crazy. This is evident in the fact you cannot say something succinctly, you need to ramble for 2 pages just so people skim it and go "oh wow, he must be smart."

You must live by the motto: If you cannot convince them, confuse them.

 

[ENTROPY]

Entropy. Yes I have been to Holland. I have walked through the red light district and have walked the streets of a few cities, the most common one everyone will know is Amsterdam. Drugs are very popular there and it is not hard to get any drugs you want. Dateline even did a show and had people ask for ecstasy and mushrooms and there was no difficulty in getting them. The fact that you state this shows you do not know your stuff. Have you been there? Do you know anything about it? Are you willing to say anything to prove a point regardless if it is true or not?

I lived in Aalsmeer for 7 weeks in 2001 which is 25 km

 

[rickdog]

Entropy, you are brilliant, seriously. I was unsure of where I stood on this issue but you have given more than enough logical conclusions backed with many examples to sway me to agree with you. Nice job man, and thanks for keeping me thinking and on my toes. Once again, your posts are appreciated.

 

[ENTROPY]

Thanks bro.

Let it be restated for those who'd assume otherwise, I do not use steroids and would not advocate their use for the average individual unless they have roughly 10 years of training behind them, and are competing on the world circuit.

 

[Eric O]

Depending on what you use it is possible to reap a percentage of the benefits for the res of your life. Not a big percentage.

Decca (nandrolane sp?) can be detected for 2 years.