STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

[Bob Gray]

She's clearly saying they had a plan. Obviously it doesn't reveal what that plan was, but I thought there was no plan. I thought Rian just did whatever the he wanted. How could she be saying that?

How is it that Disney president told Lucas in early 2012 what they storyline ideas were?

What would you expect them to say, honestly? For the sake of argument, lets just say Rian Johnson and fooled everybody and intentionally made a shit movie. I dont think that happened, but Im being hypothetical.

What would you honestly expect them to say? "Oh, yeah, the trilogy has been fucked and now we're just scrambling around trying to make a sensible, satisfying end to it. Its just a salvage job. Sorry guys."

 

[TrueBias]

I blocked his ass a year ago, so it's weird seeing you guys getting mad at ghosts.

 

[minute bull]

you're automatically out for straying off the base line

Luke, you're not my father...

 

[toaa]

I want to see this poll done over now. Even people I knew who thought they liked the movie in theaters really hated it on second or third viewings. The flaws are impossible to ignore and the shine of the theater is gone.

 

[Eusung]

I want to see this poll done over now. Even people I knew who thought they liked the movie in theaters really hated it on second or third viewings. The flaws are impossible to ignore and the shine of the theater is gone.

Good idea. That's the extent of my caring at this point. Almost everyone changed their view of the film one way or the other.

Too busy enjoying The Mandalorian to debate TLJ

 

[loyalyolayal]

 

[D Train]

Good idea. That's the extent of my caring at this point. Almost everyone changed their view of the film one way or the other.

Too busy enjoying The Mandalorian to debate TLJ

I’m in for a new poll.

 

[Clippy]

This movie is so epic they are now incorporating it into classroom teachings

https://boundingintocomics.com/2019...e-last-jedi-to-teach-about-bad-screenwriting/

 

[deviake]

This movie is so epic they are now incorporating it into classroom teachings

https://boundingintocomics.com/2019...e-last-jedi-to-teach-about-bad-screenwriting/

 

[Deleted member 110072]

I think you can see how badly they've aged by how quickly they've vanished from the cultural lexon, within a year or two you very rarely heard them mentioned.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

For all the talk about "woke" and Johnson bad attempts at deconstructing SW honestly my feeling is the sequels were doomed to be mediocre at best the moment JJ Abrams was brought in.

Force Awakens plays on Starwar nostalgia a ton BUT it does a very bad job at actually recreating the appeal of the original films, its really just a typical messy JJ Abrams blockbuster with Starwars nostalgia fed into the mincer instead of Star Trek and without the same quality of cast either.

Disney/Kennedy basically took the quick and easy path with Abrams and forever did it dominate the sequels destiny.

 

[Nizam al-Mulk]

For all the talk about "woke" and Johnson bad attempts at deconstructing SW honestly my feeling is the sequels were doomed to be mediocre at best the moment JJ Abrams was brought in.

Force Awakens plays on Starwar nostalgia a ton BUT it does a very bad job at actually recreating the appeal of the original films, its really just a typical messy JJ Abrams blockbuster with Starwars nostalgia fed into the mincer instead of Star Trek and without the same quality of cast either.

Disney/Kennedy basically took the quick and easy path with Abrams and forever did it dominate the sequels destiny.

If they wanted quick and easy they should have just adapted some of the books, no need to write a script from scratch.

 

[Halifax]

I think you can see how badly they've aged by how quickly they've vanished from the cultural lexon, within a year or two you very rarely heard them mentioned.

This movie was so bad, fans were moved to tears at jedi master Luke's appearance in mandalorian season 2 because we never thought we would get that moment after waiting so long.....because of this shit movie

 

[armbarforhire]

TFA was pretty much a remake of episode 4 but with mostly uncool characters (uncharismatic Finn, Crybaby Vader) , I don't think Rey herself was so bad (more like plain) and had no group around her to support her, it also commited the sin of not giving us what everyone wanted to see wich was the orginal cast together, they killed Solo and reverted him.

TLJ pushed for a REYLO romance capturing some new fandom, but made everyon else dumb, had a middle that looked like a different film while the ending looked like a bad remake fo ESB opening scene. They also added more uncharismatic characters like Rose.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

If they wanted quick and easy they should have just adapted some of the books, no need to write a script from scratch.

Nah I think the quick and easy path for execs is to look to whats had similar sucess at the box office in previous years and I think they looked at Abrams Trek and thought "thats a safe bet for Starwars".

To be fair it was a safe bet in terms of making some short term money(although I suspect anything with Han/Luke/Leia returning would have raked it in) but as with Trek it ended up being very bad for sustaining the franchise.

Abrams style of film making is very parasitic, he basically makes very dumb rollercosters which depend heavily on nostalgia but do not stand up to repeat viewing well or fed into a long term franchise well, exactly the same happened with Trek which declined film on film,

Again I would say whilst TFA copied elements of the original 77 film it really is nothing like it, that film spends its time really building is setting, focuses on its characters and has pretty adult witty humour. Abrams film I think has about 10 mins at the start which are somewhat along those lines as we meet Rey and Finn but very quickly it devolves into a mess of action, nostalgia and bad cheesey comedy, just throwing stuff at the viewer so fast in the hope they don't notice its doing a crap job of building its characters stories and its setting.

 

[Nizam al-Mulk]

Nah I think the quick and easy path for execs is to look to whats had similar sucess at the box office in previous years and I think they looked at Abrams Trek and thought "thats a safe bet for Starwars".

To be fair it was a safe bet in terms of making some short term money(although I suspect anything with Han/Luke/Leia returning would have raked it in) but as with Trek it ended up being very bad for sustaining the franchise.

Abrams style of film making is very parasitic, he basically makes very dumb rollercosters which depend heavily on nostalgia but do not stand up to repeat viewing well or fed into a long term franchise well, exactly the same happened with Trek which declined film on film,

Again I would say whilst TFA copied elements of the original 77 film it really is nothing like it, that film spends its time really building is setting, focuses on its characters and has pretty adult witty humour. Abrams film I think has about 10 mins at the start which are somewhat along those lines as we meet Rey and Finn but very quickly it devolves into a mess of action, nostalgia and bad cheesey comedy, just throwing stuff at the viewer so fast in the hope they don't notice its doing a crap job of building its characters stories and its setting.

It is Star Wars who directs it does not matter as long as he has basic competence. I mean in 2015.

I do not like Abrams but i enjoyed the Abramstrek movies. Trek always had low upside. I have my issues with the Khan movie but i doubt Trek can do better on the big screen in terms of money.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

It is Star Wars who directs it does not matter as long as he has basic competence. I mean in 2015.

I do not like Abrams but i enjoyed the Abramstrek movies. Trek always had low upside. I have my issues with the Khan movie but i doubt Trek can do better on the big screen in terms of money.

I think your views reflect a very strongly culture which seemed to grow prior to the SW sequels, this idea that blockbusters are quite simple to make and mostly about following a set formula.

Personally I always felt this was very strongly questionable and really was a result of a lot of net content aiming at the lowest common denominator. To be fair I really love Red Letter Media and I don't think there original prequel videos were too far wrong but I think a hell of a lot of what followed them was basically about some Youtuber or blogger being able to push some simplistic formula on a mass audience to make them feel smart.

Just throwing out a few very basic character architypes and making a few references to a franchises history does not a good film make, even if your selling a simple story(and honestly SW and Trek back in the day were actually often less simple than claimed) it needs a lot of skill to craft the settings, characters and build the plot which I think Abrams clearly lacks.

The idea that Trek "had a low upside" to me seems very fundamentally wrong, your dealing with a franchise which has shown an insane degree of staying power, there had consistantly been Trek films at the cinema since the late 70's. Now though were into the longest spell without a Trek film ever with little or no sign of a new one on the horizon.

The sad thing with Abrams Trek is I think unlike his Star Wars it did have some potential, its casting was generally pretty strong and did I think have genuine potential long term. The problem was the films themselves were a clusterfuck mess which depended on nostalgia way too much, in more skilled less hacksih hands I think the film series could have had plenty more sucess.

 

[Nizam al-Mulk]

I think your views reflect a very strongly culture which seemed to grow prior to the SW sequels, this idea that blockbusters are quite simple to make and mostly about following a set formula.

Personally I always felt this was very strongly questionable and really was a result of a lot of net content aiming at the lowest common denominator. To be fair I really love Red Letter Media and I don't think there original prequel videos were too far wrong but I think a hell of a lot of what followed them was basically about some Youtuber or blogger being able to push some simplistic formula on a mass audience to make them feel smart.

Just throwing out a few very basic character architypes and making a few references to a franchises history does not a good film make, even if your selling a simple story(and honestly SW and Trek back in the day were actually often less simple than claimed) it needs a lot of skill to craft the settings, characters and build the plot which I think Abrams clearly lacks.

The idea that Trek "had a low upside" to me seems very fundamentally wrong, your dealing with a franchise which has shown an insane degree of staying power, there had consistantly been Trek films at the cinema since the late 70's. Now though were into the longest spell without a Trek film ever with little or no sign of a gooden morality, democracynew one on the horizon.

The sad thing with Abrams Trek is I think unlike his Star Wars it did have some potential, its casting was generally pretty strong and did I think have genuine potential long term. The problem was the films themselves were a clusterfuck mess which depended on nostalgia way too much, in more skilled less hacksih hands I think the film series could have had plenty more sucess.

SW is simple, it is kindergarten morality, democracy good, dictatorship bad. that is the OT. the suquels could had been mid and be fine.

Trek has low upside in the cinema unless you can Godzilla it and make it for cheap and it looks great.

How much more success in the box office assuming the few remaining movie stars cannot be used?

 

[Deleted member 110072]

SW is simple, it is kindergarten morality, democracy good, dictatorship bad. that is the OT. the suquels could had been mid and be fine.

Trek has low upside in the cinema unless you can Godzilla it and make it for cheap and it looks great.

How much more success in the box office assuming the few remaining movie stars cannot be used?

Honestly I think its always tended to be a bit more than that, even in the original film I think you had the idea that Luke wasnt just "the good guy fighting the badguys" but that he was rejecting both the establishment and stay at home apathy, choosing to take the spiritual and moral path of the Jedi was a reflection of counter culture and anti Nam sentiment of Lucas's era IMHO. You also had Leia obviously undermining the male characters view of her as a damsel to be rescued which in the late 70's was IMHO more subversive than anything the sequels.

By the time you get to Empire Strikes Back though I do think the series quite clearly focuses on more than your simple heroic good vs evil, the whole focus of the film is in undermining that, on Luke's simpler heroic ideas being taken apart. By Return of the Jedi really you have a story which is more about forgiveness than defeating evil, Luke believing Vader can be redeemed and having to defeat his own anger and hate to do so. That you also had Lucas offering some more kid friendly stuff with the Evokes I think maybe disguised that.

The Godzilla films cost like $150 million don't they? not really "cheap" and I would argue actually Abrams kitchen sink style is actually very expensive, he needs to be throwing some action set piece in the viewers face every 10 mins rather than building towards a handful of them like say Wrath of Khan did back in the day.

Again I do think that Abrams recasted Trek roels were actually pretty good, his Kirk/Spock/McCoy definitely showed potential, the problem is his films were not character focused. We got some simplistic idea about Kirk and Spock being destined to be friends playing to nostalgia but really much proper character work, just an endless series of arguments and twists.

With Star wars I think stuff like Rogue One and Andor really are not THAT far from the originals, people talk them up as these radically different adult versions of SW but I think its moreso that Andor especially just has some of the more kid friendly stuff removed. Things like uke's moral trials in Empire/Jedi or Han's lardonic wit would fit right in with that kind of tone which treated the setting very seriously for the most part.

I think they also "get" what really worked in the original films with the setting, Lucas in the prequels tried to build this grand universe but I don't think theres really needed. In the originals you don't actually see a ton of detail, you just see enough to make it credible enough to sell you character stories. Rogue One and Andor are the same, we see these bits and peices which reference real politics and build up credibility but the real focus is on the characters, making their stories have weight. The details of how the Emperor took power just in themselves I don't think are as interesting as how that reflects on the characters.

 

[Nizam al-Mulk]

Honestly I think its always tended to be a bit more than that, even in the original film I think you had the idea that Luke wasnt just "the good guy fighting the badguys" but that he was rejecting both the establishment and stay at home apathy, choosing to take the spiritual and moral path of the Jedi was a reflection of counter culture and anti Nam sentiment of Lucas's era IMHO. You also had Leia obviously undermining the male characters view of her as a damsel to be rescued which in the late 70's was IMHO more subversive than anything the sequels.

By the time you get to Empire Strikes Back though I do think the series quite clearly focuses on more than your simple heroic good vs evil, the whole focus of the film is in undermining that, on Luke's simpler heroic ideas being taken apart. By Return of the Jedi really you have a story which is more about forgiveness than defeating evil, Luke believing Vader can be redeemed and having to defeat his own anger and hate to do so. That you also had Lucas offering some more kid friendly stuff with the Evokes I think maybe disguised that.

The Godzilla films cost like $150 million don't they? not really "cheap" and I would argue actually Abrams kitchen sink style is actually very expensive, he needs to be throwing some action set piece in the viewers face every 10 mins rather than building towards a handful of them like say Wrath of Khan did back in the day.

Again I do think that Abrams recasted Trek roels were actually pretty good, his Kirk/Spock/McCoy definitely showed potential, the problem is his films were not character focused. We got some simplistic idea about Kirk and Spock being destined to be friends playing to nostalgia but really much proper character work, just an endless series of arguments and twists.

With Star wars I think stuff like Rogue One and Andor really are not THAT far from the originals, people talk them up as these radically different adult versions of SW but I think its moreso that Andor especially just has some of the more kid friendly stuff removed. Things like uke's moral trials in Empire/Jedi or Han's lardonic wit would fit right in with that kind of tone which treated the setting very seriously for the most part.

I think they also "get" what really worked in the original films with the setting, Lucas in the prequels tried to build this grand universe but I don't think theres really needed. In the originals you don't actually see a ton of detail, you just see enough to make it credible enough to sell you character stories. Rogue One and Andor are the same, we see these bits and peices which reference real politics and build up credibility but the real focus is on the characters, making their stories have weight. The details of how the Emperor took power just in themselves I don't think are as interesting as how that reflects on the characters.

I am pretty sure people wanted to get away hard farm work if they could in 1940 also. There were plenty of Leia type characters 30s and 40s mvies. Was not a rarity at all.

And if Vader is redeemed he would be executed. That is what happened to IRL Vaders. The movie never even considers that. Luke is a hero at the and of ANH and ROTJ, pretty much the same guy he just found out who his father is.

You mean 10 mil.

I doubt Luke based on the OT would ever fit into the world of Andor.

It is equally interesting to me personally.