STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

[Guestx]

It's the chance to pass off commentary on the fans as dialogue between characters, and he disguises it effectively. It serves both purposes well. That's why, despite my finding this to be a film made with reprehensible intentions, I ended up giving it a 5 instead of a 1. Johnson uses metaphors effectively, he inserts commentary and disguises it effectively, and he uses subliminal imagery effectively. Like I said way back in the thread, a lot of this film, even beyond the visuals, is done quite skillfully. But to me, it's an application of skill to goal I frown upon.

Again, I just found it to be fairly transparent.

If indeed he did or does love the lore and world of Star Wars, then his ego certainly got the better of him somewhere along the way. He entered the franchise and opted to make it the Rian Johnson show. If he loves Star Wars, he loves himself more.

Well at this point I don't really know how else to reply but to simply say: OK.

 

[TheRuthlessOne]

Yeah, but you're trolling this thread like Rian Johnson trolls his own audience.

Shadow liked this post

Seems that he finally agrees with your take on Rian Johnson

 

[SmilinDesperado]

Gotta say...i am baffled by the "Luke the molester" accusations if you guys are serious on that.
I didn't see that at all. It would make no sense to put it in this movie, and it just wouldn't happen. A DISNEY STAR WARS movie and Luke is a phile? No.
And Kylo didn't look like some little kid to me in that scene.
And when else would be a better, painless, and opportune time to kill someone powerful than when they're sleep?

 

[Guestx]

Gotta say...i am baffled by the "Luke the molester" accusations if you guys are serious on that.
I didn't see that at all. It would make no sense to put it in this movie, and it just wouldn't happen. A DISNEY STAR WARS movie and Luke is a phile? No.
And Kylo didn't look like some little kid to me in that scene.
And when else would be a better, painless, and opportune time to kill someone powerful than when they're sleep?

All of this.

It's actually a pretty serious accusation to hurl at Rian Johnson, especially when there are more straightforward, normal ways to understand those scenes.

 

[BisexualMMA]

Gotta say...i am baffled by the "Luke the molester" accusations if you guys are serious on that.
I didn't see that at all. It would make no sense to put it in this movie, and it just wouldn't happen. A DISNEY STAR WARS movie and Luke is a phile? No.
And Kylo didn't look like some little kid to me in that scene.
And when else would be a better, painless, and opportune time to kill someone powerful than when they're sleep?

I am serious that it is meant to be subliminally implied with the imagery, as part of an attempt to tear down hero worship of Luke Skywalker. What's worse than a nephew molester? Not much. Just have a situation that kind of hints at it and you've seen Luke as something disgusting, even if you can't quite put your finger on it.

Like I said, I don't believe Luke is actually written as a rapist or molester in the story. He's just tainted with that brush a little bit.

 

[Goonerview]

Gotta say...i am baffled by the "Luke the molester" accusations if you guys are serious on that.
I didn't see that at all. It would make no sense to put it in this movie, and it just wouldn't happen. A DISNEY STAR WARS movie and Luke is a phile? No.
And Kylo didn't look like some little kid to me in that scene.
And when else would be a better, painless, and opportune time to kill someone powerful than when they're sleep?

I mean, just look at the scenes. Why have that storyline in there in the first place? They could have easily have had Luke confront Ren whilst he was training or whilst he was chilling somewhere, meditating/playing with friends or something.

Instead, Luke confronts Ren whilst he was sleeping in his bed. He sneaks into his room and pulls out his sword (a common metaphor for a penis).

Look at Ren's reaction to when he sees Luke on the battlefield, he completely reacts and wants all of the AT-ATs to kill him. This wasn't some kind of "oh it was a misunderstanding", type of deal.

Look at when Rey was confronting Luke about "what he did". Why would she over-react like that, if it was just a simple misunderstanding?

It's subliminal, but it's there.

Also, logically, Luke Skywalker brought Darth Vader back from the dark side, why would he logically try to kill Kylo over a fleeting idea that he might be evil??? This is his sister and best friend's son ... It doesn't make any logical sense.

 

[Goonerview]

I am serious that it is meant to be subliminally implied with the imagery, as part of an attempt to tear down hero worship of Luke Skywalker. What's worse than a nephew molester? Not much. Just have a situation that kind of hints at it and you've seen Luke as something disgusting, even if you can't quite put your finger on it.

Like I said, I don't believe Luke is actually written as a rapist or molester in the story. He's just tainted with that brush a little bit.

Yeah and showing Luke drink milk with dribble going down his beard, they really made him look terrible in this movie.

 

[Guestx]

I mean, just look at the scenes. Why have that storyline in there in the first place? They could have easily have had Luke confront Ren whilst he was training or whilst he was chilling somewhere, meditating/playing with friends or something.

Instead, Luke confronts Ren whilst he was sleeping in his bed. He sneaks into his room and pulls out his sword (a common metaphor for a penis).

You're either forgetting or ignoring the common trope of catching your enemy while they're sleeping.

If you want to say the scene paints Luke in a negative light, then I might agree but on the grounds that Luke seemed potentially willing to murder Kylo in cold blood.

Look at Ren's reaction to when he sees Luke on the battlefield, he completely reacts and wants all of the AT-ATs to kill him. No "oh it was a misunderstanding", type of deal.

Well, again, Kylo's view is that Luke nearly murdered him. This is, after all, exactly what the film tells us. You don't have to seek out some other explanation for Kylo's rage.

 

[BisexualMMA]

You're either forgetting or ignoring the common trope of catching your enemy while they're sleeping.

If you want to say the scene paints Luke in a negative light, then I might agree but on the grounds that Luke seemed potentially willing to murder Kylo in cold blood.

Well, again, Kylo's view is that Luke nearly murdered him. This is, after all, exactly what the film tells us. You don't have to seek out some other explanation for Kylo's rage.

There's other very subtle, again skillful stuff, though I know I will be presenting it in vain. It hints obliquely at the theme of those who are molested becoming monsters or molesters themselves. The pivotal moment that made Ren into a monster (he utters the words "yes, I am a monster") was the quasi-molestation / attempted murder incident.

Creepy Uncle Luke created a monster.

You can even view it as a church-and-molesting-priest allegory.

On its face, it is presented in the simple manner that you describe, yes. I think it comes down to how deeply you want to look at the film and the filmmaker's intentions.

 

[Goonerview]

You're either forgetting or ignoring the common trope of catching your enemy while they're sleeping.

If you want to say the scene paints Luke in a negative light, then I might agree but on the grounds that Luke seemed potentially willing to murder Kylo in cold blood.



Well, again, Kylo's view is that Luke nearly murdered him. This is, after all, exactly what the film tells us. You don't have to seek out some other explanation for Kylo's rage.

To me, it seems like a strange story point to go down in the first place. They could have easily have not had the confrontation and just have it so that Kylo Ren just got "turned" by Snoke and then set fire to the temple.

The confrontation in the bedroom didn't have to be in there for the plot to still work. But, it was deliberately put in there, is what I'm trying to say.

Why have that scene, that visual, in the first place?

His hysterical reaction, to me, seemed to suggest something even more than a simple misunderstanding.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

I mean, just look at the scenes. Why have that storyline in there in the first place? They could have easily have had Luke confront Ren whilst he was training or whilst he was chilling somewhere, meditating/playing with friends or something.

Instead, Luke confronts Ren whilst he was sleeping in his bed. He sneaks into his room and pulls out his sword (a common metaphor for a penis).

Look at Ren's reaction to when he sees Luke on the battlefield, he completely reacts and wants all of the AT-ATs to kill him. This wasn't some kind of "oh it was a misunderstanding", type of deal.

Look at when Rey was confronting Luke about "what he did". Why would she over-react like that, if it was just a simple misunderstanding?

It's subliminal, but it's there.

Look at all of the nonsensical scenes in this movie, so much happens that makes no logical sense.
If Luke's plan was to kill Kylo because he felt he was already too far gone, then why would he confront him? Why would he tell him he's going to kill him? This is something Luke doesn't want to do. He's ashamed of it and broken up on doing it, when else would you commit a murder but at night? Why would you do it when they're awake when you want to do it quietly and quickly ?

And Luke is a jedi...he has a sword. It's not like he just pulled it out of nowhere. How else would you expect a jedi to kill someone?

How else should one react to the person who tried to murder you in your sleep? He never had a conversation with Luke. Luke just shows up in his bed with his light saber drawn one random night. And since when has Ren ever reacted calm and cool to anything?
She was overreacting to Luke about to KILL his nephew in his sleep?

Lol come on man, Luke the phile theory is absolutely nuts.

 

[Guestx]

There's other very subtle, again skillful stuff, though I know I will be presenting it in vain. It hints obliquely at the theme of those who are molested becoming monsters or molesters themselves. The pivotal moment that made Ren into a monster (he utters the words "yes, I am a monster") was the quasi-molestation / attempted murder incident.

Creepy Uncle Luke created a monster.

On its face, it is presented in the simple manner that you describe, yes. I think it comes down to how deeply you want to look at the film and the filmmaker's intentions.

I really don't get how you can come up with all of this but somehow not pick up on what I think is the genuinely obvious Mace Windu/Palpatine/Jedi corruption theme in Revenge of the Sith.

I mean, that shit is very clearly being presented to the audience and you want to blow it off with "I think you're giving Lucas too much credit."

 

[GearSolidMetal]

I am serious that it is meant to be subliminally implied with the imagery, as part of an attempt to tear down hero worship of Luke Skywalker. What's worse than a nephew molester? Not much. Just have a situation that kind of hints at it and you've seen Luke as something disgusting, even if you can't quite put your finger on it.

Like I said, I don't believe Luke is actually written as a rapist or molester in the story. He's just tainted with that brush a little bit.

BisexualMMA, I absolutley hated this movie for so many reasons I could write a book on it.

And while I'm fine with Luke's evolution as a character, I'm not a huge fan of the idea he'd attempt to kill his teenage nephew in his sleep, especially just off a vision of the future that 'Ben' falls to the dark side, because Yoda in Ep5 says to Luke about visions of the future "They're always in motion."

BUT, the idea that the imagery of the flashback scenes of Luke trying to kill Ben is meant to imply Luke is philic? Sorry, not buying that one. Its a damn Disney movie, and that theory gives the director way too much credit for being clever and adds 'layers' of interpretation for this movie it clearly doesn't deserve.

It's already a terribad movie, don't try to make it worse than it already is.

 

[Goonerview]

Look at all of the nonsensical scenes in this movie, so much happens that makes no logical sense.
If Luke's plan was to kill Kylo because he felt he was already too far gone, then why would he confront him? Why would he tell him he's going to kill him? This is something Luke doesn't want to do. He's ashamed of it and broken up on doing it, when else would you commit a murder but at night? Why would you do it when they're awake when you want to do it quietly and quickly ?

And Luke is a jedi...he has a sword. It's not like he just pulled it out of nowhere. How else would you expect a jedi to kill someone?

How else should one react to the person who tried to murder you in your sleep? He never had a conversation with Luke. Luke just shows up in his bed with his light saber drawn one random night. And since when has Ren ever reacted calm and cool to anything?
She was overreacting to Luke about to KILL his nephew in his sleep?

Lol come on man, Luke the phile theory is absolutely nuts.

That scene and visual was deliberately put into the movie. It didn't have to be in there.

The director could have just said "Ren got turned by Snoke and burned the temple down". And the plot, as a whole, wouldn't have changed.

The director intentionally put it in. For a reason.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

I am serious that it is meant to be subliminally implied with the imagery, as part of an attempt to tear down hero worship of Luke Skywalker. What's worse than a nephew molester? Not much. Just have a situation that kind of hints at it and you've seen Luke as something disgusting, even if you can't quite put your finger on it.

Like I said, I don't believe Luke is actually written as a rapist or molester in the story. He's just tainted with that brush a little bit.

Why do you think Johnson is trying to paint Luke as "the worst" way he can?
He is clearly breaking down the hero wprship, but you're now making him into a monster. Lol philia has absolutely no place in this story. In a movie with Porgs, Rose saying "love will save us", and all of the other flufffy garbage in this film, there is absolutely no way i will believe that Johnson was trying to make references or hints of Luke possibly being a ...and a of his own nephew at that.
This is a Disney picture, man. There is no way

 

[BisexualMMA]

Why do you think Johnson is trying to paint Luke as "the worst" way he can?
He is clearly breaking down the hero wprship, but you're now making him into a monster. Lol philia has absolutely no place in this story. In a movie with Porgs, Rose saying "love will save us", and all of the other flufffy garbage in this film, there is absolutely no way i will believe that Johnson was trying to make references or hints of Luke possibly being a ...and a of his own nephew at that.
This is a Disney picture, man. There is no way

Well, I never thought I'd see testicles being milked in a Disney movie either.

He's not saying, "Luke boned his nephew." He's just throwing "a pinch of salt" into the mix, a small dash of creepy uncle in the bedroom imagery.

 

[Guestx]

To me, it seems like a strange story point to go down in the first place. They could have easily have not had the confrontation and just have it so that Kylo Ren just got "turned" by Snoke and then set fire to the temple.

The confrontation in the bedroom didn't have to be in there for the plot to still work. But, it was deliberately put in there, is what I'm trying to say.

Why have that scene, that visual, in the first place?

His hysterical reaction, to me, seemed to suggest something even more than a simple misunderstanding.

Well, to touch on something I was just mentioning to BMMA, I think a lot of the Luke stuff is actually the fulfillment of themes that George Lucas established in the prequels. Lucas laid the track and put the train in motion and Rian Johnson brought it into the station.

The themes I'm referring to have to do with the precarious nature of the Jedi and how members of the Jedi Order are constantly walking a balance beam between the light and dark side. Luke's obvious struggle is bringing that theme to the character. But none of this has to do with child molestation.

I think a lot of times people just forget that the prequels ever existed and so that's three entire films' worth of thematic elements that many fans forget about. The story that is being told in the movies today is a continuation of the story that begins with those films.

 

[SmilinDesperado]

That scene and visual was deliberately put into the movie. It didn't have to be in there.

The director could have just said "Ren got turned by Snoke and burned the temple down". And the plot, as a whole, wouldn't have changed.

The director intentionally put it in. For a reason.

<{chips}>

Well, I never thought I'd see testicles being milked in a Disney movie either.

He's not saying, "Luke boned his nephew." He's just throwing "a pinch of salt" into the mix, a small dash of creepy uncle in the bedroom imagery.

<{chips}>

 

[BisexualMMA]

<{chips}>


<{chips}>

The film had several theses to it. One of them was, "if you're not going to stop worshipping Luke Skywalker on your own, I'm going to make you do it."

 

[Guestx]

The film had several theses to it. One of them was, "if you're not going to stop worshipping Luke Skywalker on your own, I'm going to make you do it."

Why is Luke Skywalker a threat to Rian Johnson though? What would Rian Johnson have a vested interest in Luke's destruction? It's not necessary to move the franchise on to new heroes.

Furthermore, if that's RJ's agenda, then why end the film with Luke acting heroically?