STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

[BisexualMMA]

So you're not going to give me bullet points?

I don't know if it's that easy to bullet point it off the top of my head.

Maybe if you throw me scenes where you thought he was respecting the audience or the lore and characters of Star Wars, I can point out how I thought he was doing otherwise, if relevant in that case.

Anyway, here's one post I made about one issue.

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/s...onlords-review.3676193/page-58#post-136952401

 

[Adamant]

Even Daisy doesn't sound totally satisfied with VIII...

 

[Guestx]

I don't know if it's that easy to bullet point it off the top of my head.

Maybe if you throw me scenes where you thought he was respecting the audience or the lore and characters of Star Wars, I can point out how I thought he was doing otherwise, if relevant in that case.

Anyway, here's one post I made about one issue.

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/s...onlords-review.3676193/page-58#post-136952401

Your link doesn't seem to have pointed to where you intended. It just took me to the top of this page. If you give me the post number, then I can look it up.

As for disrespecting the lore, I can only think of four things worth potentially getting upset about:

1. The characterization of Luke

2. Democratization of the Force, rather than focusing on the Skywalker "chosen one" theme.

3. New Force abilities

4. Yoda essentially burning down the Jedi legacy

My response to these four issues are thus:

1. Lucas already established the precarious nature of the Jedi in earlier films, how they're constantly walking the balance beam between the light and the dark, between virtue and corruption. They are not meant to be avatars of moral perfection.

2. Skywalkers aren't the only ones who get to be Jedi and never have. There are all kinds of different Jedi in the prequels. A whole Jedi army rushes onto the battlefield in AOTC. I'll grant that this nullifies the idea of of the chosen one who will come to balance the Force. But with Luke handing things off to Rey, he is returning things to the pre-Skywalker state. I don't have a problem with that, because it seems to me, it's either do that or fulfill the prophecy, balance the Force, and boom, Star Wars is over. I any case, the Skywalker blood actually still lives within Kylo.

3. This one's easy. We talked about it before. New Force adepts find new ways to use it through continued practice and experience.

4. I could see fans getting pissed about this. It made me slightly uneasy as well. But Rey did save the sacred Jedi texts, and I think Yoda's message was essentially: "Don't mistake the artifice of the Jedi religion for what it's really all about. Don't miss the forest for the trees."

Your thoughts?

 

[moreorless87]

Boxoffice numbers do seem to be showing a rapid dropoff, granted christmas eve always has a negative effect on numbers but but Rogue One had that fall on its larger Saturday last year rather than sunday this year yet had a smaller dropoff, that's a film much more geared to the hardcore fanbase as well.

Personally I never though it would make TFA numbers as that films success like TPM was down to being the first new Starwars for a long period but I would expect it to do better than this if viewer responses were actually strong and places like Rotten Tomatoes were just full of alt right bots.

 

[BisexualMMA]

Your link doesn't seem to have pointed to where you intended. It just took me to the top of this page. If you give me the post number, then I can look it up.

1142

As for disrespecting the lore, I can only think of four things worth potentially getting upset about:

1. The characterization of Luke

2. Democratization of the Force, rather than focusing on the Skywalker "chosen one" theme.

3. New Force abilities

4. Yoda essentially burning down the Jedi legacy

My response to these four issues are thus:

1. Lucas already established the precarious nature of the Jedi in earlier films, how they're constantly walking g the balance beam between the light and the dark, between virtue and corruption. They are not meant to be avatars of moral perfection.

2. Skywalkers aren't the only ones who get to be Jedi and never have. There are all kinds of different Jedi in the prequels. A whole Jedi army rushes onto the battlefield in AOTC. I'll grant that this nullifies the idea of of the chosen one who will come to balance the Force. But with Luke handing things off to Rey, he is returning things to the pre-Skywalker state. I don't have a problem with that, because it seems to me, it's either do that or fulfill the prophecy, balance the Force, and boom, Star Wars is over. I any case, the Skywalker blood actually still lives within Kylo.

3. This one's easy. We talked about it before. New Force adepts find new ways to use it through continued practice and experience.

4. I could see fans getting pissed about this. It made me slightly uneasy as well. But Rey did save the sacred Jedi texts, and I think Yoda's message was essentially: "Don't mistake the artifice of the Jedi religion for what it's really all about. Don't miss the forrest for the trees."

Your thoughts?

Of the four issues you listed...

1. The characterization of Luke. My thoughts? This film is the comprehensive and premeditated character assassination of Luke Skywalker. Despite the formidable paycheck, I think Mark Hamill will regret participating in this film on his death bed.

2. Democratization of the force. No problem with there being Jedi that aren't Skywalkers. And I don't think many people at all have a problem with that. But Johnson didn't stop at simply saying Rey isn't a Skywalker. He used the whole thing as a bait-and-switch to "subvert expectations" for the 20th time in the film and prove how clever he is.

3. New Force abilities. No problem with the idea and, again, most people don't have a problem with the idea. Again, it's how Johnson's film manifested this. Especially with the Leia's-actually-not-dead bait and switch, which was frankly a hideous thing to follow through with given Carrie Fisher's death in real life. But hey, that's how important it is to set up an emotional payoff and then pull the rug out at the last second.

4. Yoda burning down the Jedi legacy... Well, I wouldn't have advised it. Of all the things Yoda could show up and do or say, he chose to burn down the Jedi past for Rian Johnson's new world because it's so much better. I'll reserve judgment on this particular one, pending further thought.

But I think you're misunderstanding what people's gripes are with points 2 and 3.

 

[Guestx]

1142

Okay . . . just read that. . .

Dude, WTF?

I don't even know how to respond to that.

 

[BisexualMMA]

Okay . . . just read that. . .

Dude, WTF?

I don't even know how to respond to that.

In case you got notified, I tried to respond with Frederic Forrest saying "think about it" in Falling Down, but couldn't get the start and end time to work in the clip.

 

[Guestx]

In case you got notified, I tried to respond with Frederic Forrest saying "think about it" in Falling Down, but couldn't get the start and end time to work in the clip.

I'll say this shit. . .

I can't IMAGINE that was actually what he was going for, and your perspective seems like it may be the perspective of our modern, overly-sexualized society, and also of a society that seems to have a panic going on regarding child-molestation where a molester is seen around every corner.

My perspective for Luke attacking Kylo at night was simply that he was trying to get the drop on his enemy as he slept and was unaware. Why read more into it than that? Why try to turn it into some sick joke about uncles molesting their nephews?

Like I said earlier: WTF?

 

[BisexualMMA]

I'll say this shit. . .

I can't IMAGINE that was actually what he was going for, and your perspective seems like it may be the perspective of our modern, overly-sexualized society, and also of a society that seems to have a panic going on regarding child-molestation where a molester is seen around every corner.

My perspective for Luke attacking Kylo at night was simply that he was trying to get the drop on his enemy as he slept and was unaware. Why read more into it than that? Why try to turn it into some sick joke about uncles molesting their nephews?

Like I said earlier: WTF?

Well, do I generally strike you as the type to have a hair-triggered safe space panic button?

Like I said, this movie was about assassinating the character, myth and cultural adulation of Luke Skywalker. Rian Johnson used symbolism and visual innuendo to do this, in addition to what happened in the plot.

 

[Guestx]

Well, do I generally strike you as the type to have a hair-triggered safe space panic button?

Like I said, this movie was about assassinating the character, myth and cultural adulation of Luke Skywalker. Rian Johnson used symbolism and visual innuendo to do this, in addition to what happened in the plot.

I do not believe he would do that, nor do I think that Johnson hates the character of Luke Skywalker. I think making him a crotchety old man is enough to show Luke's flaws.

While I'll admit that it's possible and I can't disprove your cleverly constructed idea, I must regard it as the "9/11 was an inside job" of Star Wars theories. That is, it can seem to make sense on the surface, but is morally repugnant and I can't believe that our leaders would actually go to such lengths for their own ends. It would be too great of a betrayal of the people.

 

[CrimsonFan]

No doubt it was beautifully shot. It has the best visuals of any SW movie. But the mischaracterization of Luke is unforgivable. He’s a different person altogether. And how is Rey so powerful with virtually no training? Force users have always required training. Always. Johnson seems to lack a fundamental understanding of the universe. It also seems like no one actually wrote a whole story and now they are making it up as they go. Are the individual directors writing these things? That’s an actual question.

These things have been discussed a bunch but it still gets on my nerves to read this.

Would Luke from return of the Jedi have ran away to live alone on a rock for 30 years?

Who would be the same after 30 years of solitude? Who is the same as an old man? People can change over 30 years, especially if they'e living like a hermit. Only a little bitch would run away and live in isolation for 30 years.

He had to work with that, he walked into a dumb script. Yoda was a little weirdo cranky old goofy bastard when Luke found him too.


How much training did Luke have? He trained with Yoda for... I dunno, couldn't have possibly been more than a couple months? Then defeated Darth Vader. I never saw him getting light saber lessons. He just runs around with a Yoda backpack and tries and fails to get an xwing from a swamp

Lol at him deliberately doing harm to star wars.. by making an original fucking movie!?



This is a movie about people with super powers, laser swords, aliens, space travel.. It's a fantasy, just enjoy it and don't try and nitpick things you find unrealistic

 

[BisexualMMA]

I do not believe he would do that, nor do I think that Johnson hate the character of Luke Skywalker. I think making him a crotchety old man is enough to show Luke's flaws.

While I'll admit that it's possible and I can't break disprove your cleverly constructed idea, I must regard it as the "9/11 was an inside job" of Star Wars theories. That is, it can seem to make sense on the surface, but is morally repugnant and I can't believe that our leaders would actually go to such lengths for their own ends. It would be too great of a betrayal of the people.

He doesn't have to hate Luke Skywalker. He just has to be willing to show how great his new protagonist is via the method of showing how shitty Luke really is. It wasn't enough to build up Rey through Rey's own adventures. Look at what a piece of shit Luke really is, and shame on you for ever having cheered for him.

He was going to tear down whatever was there to show how clever he is. It just happened to be Luke that was still standing and the biggest target to humiliate. If Luke had died in part one, he would have done it to Han Solo instead.

It wasn't really about hating Luke Skywalker. It was the appealing challenge of tearing him down as an intellectual / artistic achievement. If he can actually get fans of Luke Skywalker to praise him for it, all the better.

 

[Guestx]

Yoda was a little weirdo cranky old goofy bastard when Luke found him too.

This is true.

It's interesting to see the change in Yoda from the prequels to Empire and Jedi. He went from being a pretty balanced giver of wisdom to a little bit kooky, mischievous and eccentric. What we see in TLJ is just a continuation of that progression.

 

[Guestx]

He doesn't have to hate Luke Skywalker. He just has to be willing to show how great his new protagonist is via the method of showing how shitty Luke really is. It wasn't enough to build up Rey through Rey's own adventures. Look at what a piece of shit Luke really is, and shame on you for ever having cheered for him.

He was going to tear down whatever was there to show how clever he is. It just happened to be Luke that was still standing and the biggest target to humiliate. If Luke had died in part one, he would have done it to Han Solo instead.

It wasn't really about hating Luke Skywalker. It was the appealing challenge of tearing him down as an intellectual / artistic achievement. If he can actually get fans of Luke Skywalker to praise him for it, all the better.

I think you're going too far with the child molestation stuff. These are fun movies. Don't make it fucking weird.

You don't even need that subtext to show that Luke is no longer the man he was in the earlier films.

 

[BisexualMMA]

I think you're going too far with the child molestation stuff. These are fun movies. Don't make it fucking weird.

You don't even need that subtext to show that Luke is no longer the man he was in the earlier films.

I didn't make it weird. Johnson did when he wrote and filmed it. Like I said, that isn't even the scenario that naturally lends itself to the master seeing evil in his pupil. Especially when there are dark side caves and holes all around. Luke can force project across the galaxy, make mind contact with Leia across a solar system. Snoke can link Rey and Kylo's minds across who knows how many light years.

But Luke has to actually go into the sleeping kid's bedroom at night to find out what's really going on.

If you were writing a scene from scratch where Luke discovers Kylo's dark side, is that what you would come up with?

He made Luke a creepy uncle on purpose. But he obscured it enough that debates like this will arise if someone brings it up.

 

[Guestx]

I didn't make it weird. Johnson did when he wrote and filmed it. Like I said, that isn't even the scenario that naturally lends itself to the master seeing evil in his pupil. Especially when there are dark side caves and holes all around. Luke can force project across the galaxy, make mind contact with Leia across a solar system. Snoke can link Rey and Kylo's minds across who knows how many light years.

But Luke has to actually go into the sleeping kid's bedroom at night to find out what's really going on.

If you were writing a scene from scratch where Luke discovers Kylo's dark side, is that the what you would come up with?

He made Luke a creepy uncle on purpose. But he obscured it enough that debates like this will arise if someone brings it up.

It wasn't in that moment that Luke detected Kylo's predilection for the darkness. This is the scene where he decided to do something about it.

It's a common trope for people to attack their enemies as they sleep. It seems to me the obvious reading is that Luke decided he could no longer allow Kylo to live, he went to get the drop on Kylo but as he looked at him he was very conflicted because, you know, he's about to murder his fucking nephew, and then Kylo wakes up and all hell breaks loose.

I mean, why are you insisting it is more than this? It seems like you're reading a lot into it that I doesn't necessarily feel is supported by the text of the film.

 

[CrimsonFan]

I'll say this shit. . .

I can't IMAGINE that was actually what he was going for, and your perspective seems like it may be the perspective of our modern, overly-sexualized society, and also of a society that seems to have a panic going on regarding child-molestation where a molester is seen around every corner.

My perspective for Luke attacking Kylo at night was simply that he was trying to get the drop on his enemy as he slept and was unaware. Why read more into it than that? Why try to turn it into some sick joke about uncles molesting their nephews?

Like I said earlier: WTF?

Lmao

Merry Christmas sherdog

I'm done with this thread.

I thought I was arguing with rational people about this until I read @BisexualMMA post about Luke molesting Kylo.


For the record I really like him as a poster, but I just can't take this argument seriously anymore. It does suck that you guys not only dislike this movie, but hate it so much you feel the need to go give it 1 stars on IMDB and argue about it for 100 pages.

I'm done.


If you'e gonna hate on the problems with the movies, atleast point the blame in the right direction. Changing directors, no script, and such.

 

[BisexualMMA]

It wasn't in that moment that Luke detected Kylo's predilection for the darkness. This is the scene where he decided to do something about it.

It's a common trope for people to attack their enemies as they sleep. It seems to me the obvious reading is that Luke decided he could no longer allow Kylo to live, he went to get the drop on Kylo but as he looked at him he was very conflicted because, you know, he's about to murder his fucking nephew, and then Kylo wakes up and all hell breaks loose.

It's okay to disagree about it. I think the creepy uncle stuff will get more attention as people sit on the movie. Time will tell whether I'm right.

 

[Guestx]

Lmao

Merry Christmas sherdog

I'm done with this thread.

I thought I was arguing with rational people about this until I read @BisexualMMA post about Luke molesting Kylo.


For the record I really like him as a poster, but I just can't take this argument seriously anymore. It does suck that you guys not only dislike this movie, but hate it so much you feel the need to go give it 1 stars on IMDB and argue about it for 100 pages.

I'm done.


If you'e gonna hate on the problems with the movies, atleast point the blame in the right direction. Changing directors, no script, and such.

LOL

This shit really is getting out of hand.

 

[Guestx]

It's okay to disagree about it. I think the creepy uncle stuff will get more attention as people sit on the movie. Time will tell whether I'm right.

You know, I want to say you might not be the first person who's mentioned it. I may have heard someone else make a similar comment on a podcast or in a review or something. It sounds vaguely familiar, actually.

So it will be interesting to see if it's an idea that takes root. But to go with it basically means you are condemning Rian Johnson in your mind as one sick motherfucker. I've listened to multiple pre-Star Wars interviews with the guy and he actually seems like a pretty chill, humble dude.