STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

[CoolB]

Next morning and still love the movie. It wasn't perfect and neither are the Jedi. Luke's character worked fine with me. Its not like yoda was mr. positive when Luke came to him for training either. So many past complaints about reshashing these movies and the first time a character does something out of line the movie and franchise is 'ruined' for some people.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

@Spoken, Luke by the time of return of the jedi is pretty damn advanced and not really that conflicted. The only time he shows weakness is when he gives in to the dark side when vader threatens to replace him with leia. But luke comes back to his senses quickly, and then refuses the fucking emperor and refuses to give in. His faith in vader paid off. Vader was far more gone then Kylo ren is. Vader spent decades feeding off his anger and regret. Kylo is still young and conflicted. Far from the lost cause vader was. Yet luke just says fuck it im out bitches. Leaving Leia and the republic he fought for behind without any intentions of coming back. I just don't see that as a logical arc. Luke puts it on the line for his friends and family. He faced vader in empire strikes back before he was ready because Leia was in trouble. Luke doesn't run away from a fight. And if he retreats he comes back stronger and with a plan. This old man Luke isn't the luke of return, and what happened between him and Kylo isn't enough for him to write everyone else in his life off.

As positive as I am about this movie... & I do feel there are a lot of home runz with it... What you have said here is the thing that I'm f*cked with the most. It doesn't kill the whole movie or the progression of the series for me... but it does kind of crap on the hero I've grown up with.

@EvilDDS is there some canon novelization that shows Luke is a mental case prior to the Kylo incident? I'm not sure if that would change anything... but it's worth a look.

Also, Luke saw that defeating the Empire, led to the Empire re-building... & then defeating them again lead to the Empire re-building again under new management & changing their name to the First Order.... & so he might conceivably feel that the whole effort was in vain... & so what's the point of doing it again? I do fundamentally disagree with this premise, but I'm trying to find at least a thread of understanding as to why this hero gave up. Futility is a pretty strong argument for a hero to say f*ck it... especially on top of him failing Kylo & by extension Han, Leia, & the entire galaxy by unleashing this monster instead of keeping him on the island enjoying Porg Kebabs.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Also, that wasn't the first time he recognized the dark in Kylo... so he's had time to sort out his thoughts. If they were going to write it that way... they should've revealed that Snoke actually took Luke's mind in that moment & caused the whole confusion.

Like when Snoke had Rey hovering & was in her head... Rey turns it on him & reveals the truth that Snoke manipulated the situation to make that happen.

Anywayz... it didn't go down that way... but it might not be too late for them to sneak something like that into the novelization.

The biggest problem for me is that we just don't see enough in the flashback or indeed enough of Luke otherwise showing wisdom generally. Telling the story of the Jedi training across multiple flashbacks(maybe some from Luke's side and some from Kylo's) showing Luke's training of Ben and his efforts to save him plus Snoke's seducing him would have made it much easier to take. The actual situation could have been made rather less clear cut as well, maybe show Ben injuring another student in turning towards the darkside, Luke confronting him, getting an aggressive response and then attacking him before holding back.

The Rey/Luke/Kylo story really should have been at the centre of this film getting the vast majority of the screen time IMHO, there just wasn't the substance to any of the resistance stuff.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

Next morning and still love the movie. It wasn't perfect and neither are the Jedi. Luke's character worked fine with me. Its not like yoda was mr. positive when Luke came to him for training either. So many past complaints about reshashing these movies and the first time a character does something out of line the movie and franchise is 'ruined' for some people.

Yeah, it messes with our hero's creds that we grew up with & people don't want to accept it... but the story continues & we move on. I agree.

I'm still trying to logic my way around it & come to grips with it myself, but I'm not sh*tting on the whole movie just because I didn't like that one part.

 

[Tamriel Terror]

I'm not mad at Leia having force ability. I just think it could have been handled better. And if she use it in the vacuum of space after being blown out of the bridge, then why can't she use it against storm troopers or to talk to her son? One of the main problems is Rey is over powered. I never really fear she's done for because shes never really bested in combat or injured. there are no stakes. There seems to be no journey here. She just picks up force powers at the whim of the fucking plot needs her too. Luke had to take some L's first before becoming the bad ass he is in Return.

Yeaa Rey having damn near omnipotent power takes any suspense out of the movies at all. She is op as hell. First she beat Kylo in the first movie with zero training, then saved him in the second. Its clear she is far stronger and superior to him, so whats the suspense? Whats the point of having a villain who has literally no chance?Lol. Snoke atleast was an interesting character (that was before they gave him zero backstory or development and killed him off).

What excitement is there for the next movie? Op hero whose untouchable (Rey), obviously inferior villain (Kylo) who cant decide if hes evil or not, no interesting secrets left to uncover, both armies are pretty much decimated, Snoke is dead, Luke is dead, etc.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

The biggest problem for me is that we just don't see enough in the flashback or indeed enough of Luke otherwise showing wisdom generally. Telling the story of the Jedi training across multiple flashbacks(maybe some from Luke's side and some from Kylo's) showing Luke's training of Ben and his efforts to save him plus Snoke's seducing him would have made it much easier to take. The actual situation could have been made rather less clear cut as well, maybe show Ben injuring another student in turning towards the darkside, Luke confronting him, getting an aggressive response and then attacking him before holding back.

The Rey/Luke/Kylo story really should have been at the centre of this film getting the vast majority of the screen time IMHO, there just wasn't the substance to any of the resistance stuff.

This ^

What you said here is one of my gripes about the movie as well.

• Kylo turning to the dark side full on is a major plot point & turn of events.
• They breaze past it with a bit of speculation from the first movie & then a 30 second explanation is all they can fit into the 2nd movie.

That should've really been expanded upon. I would only hope they try & redeem this a bit with the novelization... but they really should've done it in the movie itself.

 

[EvilDDS]

I'm not as turned off about that scene as a lot of otherz are. I get that the stance she was at might of been a little too "marry poppins" or something... but as far as Jedi being able to manipulate their own body... It's been happening since the first movie with Luke jumping out of the Cryo Chamber. Also catching himself under cloud city in the next movie. You know he didn't fall that far & catch himself without using the force to slow the fall. (Palps could've done the same... but alass there was no antenna to grab. )

Anywayz.... it was actually a visually beautiful scene... & I ain't mad a bit by it.

Was pretty emotional when I thought that was how they were going to kill her off & I was all into it... but to flip it like that where she doesn't actually die blew my mind... so I'm happy about that as well.

I know there is a canon reference to Jedi survivng out in space without a space suit. Just from the last few seasons in Rebels. Do you remember Darth Maul launching blind Kanan out of the space ship, and locking him out. I would have to go back and watch it, but I think he used the force to pull himself back in

 

[CoolB]

Yeah, it messes with our hero's creds that we grew up with & people don't want to accept it... but the story continues & we move on. I agree.

I'm still trying to logic my way around it & come to grips with it myself, but I'm not sh*tting on the whole movie just because I didn't like that one part.

I love Luke Skywalker but to me Star Wars was always much more then just Luke. Luke is a huge character to us but just one small price of the force. Maybe I liked this movie a lot because it wasn't Skywalker centric to me. To be honest I was more excited to see Rey then Luke this go around.

 

[Lavitz]

 

[sickc0d3r]

I was really f*cked about Snoke... but then I realized that despite all the speculation... he was never a main character. His only roll was to show how a middle class kid gained control of the biggest military force in the galaxy.... so I'm fine with that. Still working other things about the movie out though.

I think this touches on an important point. ALL of the main characters in this movie grew and settled into their roles, and each subplot and its character interaction was designed to facilitate that.

Finn started off ready to abandon the resistance in order to save Rey. He has never cared about the rebels much at all. By the end, though, he had embraced the cause.

When a defeated chrome dome called him scum he correct her, "rebel scum". Later he was ready to fly head first into a firing canon to save them. That was all due to what he learned on his adventure with Rose at the casino.

Poe started off as the hot headed fly boy. By the end he was becoming the leader the rebels need.

What if somebody like Ackbar had taken over for Leia, would Poe have second guessed all his decisions and committed mutiny? More importantly, would the audience have been on Poe's side if he ousted the "it's a trap" guy? They needed us to mistrust the new leader and think Poe was going to save the day there, only to have the rug pulled out from under us. That's also why it was a slooow chase, because the impatient guy needed to rush to action and make mistakes.

And, yeah, Snoke was there to push Kylo into smashing the mask he was hiding behind and be the truly evil shit bag that he is. Just like Rey needed to confront them and solidify her convictions. Now Kylo's power and confidence has grown and the symbolic struggle for that light saber at the end shows they are going to remain opposing forces of similar power.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

Some really great discussionz here about the movie. I dreaded opening this thread up in fear for the haters just spitting venom at it... but discussing constructive criticism in a logical way is really nice. Thank you everyone.

I gotta split & take care of some stuff, but I'll be back. Keep up the good convoz

 

[Myrddin Wild]

I know there is a canon reference to Jedi survivng out in space without a space suit. Just from the last few seasons in Rebels. Do you remember Darth Maul launching blind Kanan out of the space ship, and locking him out. I would have to go back and watch it, but I think he used the force to pull himself back in

Hmmm... yeah, I do remember that

 

[WAR_CLAY_GUIDA!!]

But this saga is heavily invested in the Skywalkers. So you can't have these saga films not be about them to some extent. If a director wants to add to cannon without dealing with them, he should make a spin off movie. The saga films at least until this point were about the Skywalkers. You can't just quickly eliminate them because you want to change up things. It has to be an organic and logic send off. It seemed like he just said fuck you guys, this is my story and fuck the Skywalkers. Then he seemed to gloat about it with his let the past die message. The past is why we are in these fucking seats watching your shit movie. I don't mind Rey being a low born bum, but i don't like the arc of her just fucking shit up for no explicable reason. this movie wasn't entertaining to me or the people i went to see it with. the crowd in the theater seemed pretty bummed afterward.

 

[jlagman]

I feel that your reaction to TLJ will largely depend on how you felt about TFA.

For me, while I enjoyed TFA, I was concerned about the direction it was taking the series; a retread of the original trilogy. While it had its flaws, I felt that TFJ gave me refreshing Star Wars experience, that's why I enjoyed it.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

I think this touches on an important point. ALL of the main characters in this movie grew and settled into their roles, and each subplot and its character interaction was designed to facilitate that.

Finn started off ready to abandon the resistance in order to save Rey. He has never cared about the rebels much at all. By the end, though, he had embraced the cause.

When a defeated chrome dome called him scum he correct her, "rebel scum". Later he was ready to fly head first into a firing canon to save them. That was all due to what he learned on his adventure with Rose at the casino.

Poe started off as the hot headed fly boy. By the end he was becoming the leader the rebels need.

What if somebody like Ackbar had taken over for Leia, would Poe have second guessed all his decisions and committed mutiny? More importantly, would the audience have been on Poe's side if he ousted the "it's a trap" guy? They needed us to mistrust the new leader and think Poe was going to save the day there, only to have the rug pulled out from under us. That's also why it was a slooow chase, because the impatient guy needed to rush to action and make mistakes.

And, yeah, Snoke was there to push Kylo into smashing the mask he was hiding behind and be the truly evil shit bag that he is. Just like Rey needed to confront them and solidify her convictions. Now Kylo's power and confidence has grown and the symbolic struggle for that light saber at the end shows they are going to remain opposing forces of similar power.

Nice breakdown... & yeah, that's a great point that Snoke also got us off the nipple of needing a scary hero in a mask after Vader had been a part of our lives for so long.

This whole movie was basically character development... & it amuses me to think that Rian's intentions are the same as Kylo's... You can only be free if you move beyond the past... Kill it if you must... or whatever the exact quote was. lol... That's Rian all the way!!! haha...

 

[method115]

But this saga is heavily invested in the Skywalkers. So you can't have these saga films not be about them to some extent. If a director wants to add to cannon without dealing with them, he should make a spin off movie. The saga films at least until this point were about the Skywalkers. You can't just quickly eliminate them because you want to change up things. It has to be an organic and logic send off. It seemed like he just said fuck you guys, this is my story and fuck the Skywalkers. Then he seemed to gloat about it with his let the past die message. The past is why we are in these fucking seats watching your shit movie. I don't mind Rey being a low born bum, but i don't like the arc of her just fucking shit up for no explicable reason. this movie wasn't entertaining to me or the people i went to see it with. the crowd in the theater seemed pretty bummed afterward.

Eh I had no issue with the way they got rid of the sky walkers. Leia is still a live to but I assume she'll be gone next movie.

 

[method115]

I feel that your reaction to TLJ will largely depend on how you felt about TFA.

For me, while I enjoyed TFA, I was concerned about the direction it was taking the series; a retread of the original trilogy. While it had its flaws, I felt that TFJ gave me refreshing Star Wars experience, that's why I enjoyed it.

Yea I didn't like TFA being a reboot pretty much. TFJ did go a different route which I liked but the story was just boring (first half anyways). I did really enjoy the second half of the movie.

 

[Law Talkin’ Guy]

I feel that your reaction to TLJ will largely depend on how you felt about TFA.

For me, while I enjoyed TFA, I was concerned about the direction it was taking the series; a retread of the original trilogy. While it had its flaws, I felt that TFJ gave me refreshing Star Wars experience, that's why I enjoyed it.

I don’t think so. I loved TFA and hated TLJ.

 

[EvilDDS]

As positive as I am about this movie... & I do feel there are a lot of home runz with it... What you have said here is the thing that I'm f*cked with the most. It doesn't kill the whole movie or the progression of the series for me... but it does kind of crap on the hero I've grown up with.

@EvilDDS is there some canon novelization that shows Luke is a mental case prior to the Kylo incident? I'm not sure if that would change anything... but it's worth a look.

Also, Luke saw that defeating the Empire, led to the Empire re-building... & then defeating them again lead to the Empire re-building again under new management & changing their name to the First Order.... & so he might conceivably feel that the whole effort was in vain... & so what's the point of doing it again? I do fundamentally disagree with this premise, but I'm trying to find at least a thread of understanding as to why this hero gave up. Futility is a pretty strong argument for a hero to say f*ck it... especially on top of him failing Kylo & by extension Han, Leia, & the entire galaxy by unleashing this monster instead of keeping him on the island enjoying Porg Kebabs.

I gotta think about that, I'm trying to remember how he was in the Aftermath and Bloodline books. Also, most recently From a Certain Point of View, he was tested on that island and it certainly opened his eyes to different things, but can't remember if he was conflicted at this point

 

[Rob Battisti]

I agree with A but B doesn't apply. This wasn't horse racing. Trying to speculate the proper way to train\raise some horse like alien species is over thinking the plot IMO. Basically we don't know so maybe in there universe that it was the proper way to do things for that species of animal.

come on, man. you're sitting here, telling me that the scene of the "mistreated" whatever the hell they were animals wasn't in there to show that people are evil? And that that might have been the best thing for them? Sure, then why did jigglypuff set them all free?

<[analyzed}>