STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

[jlagman]

Part of the problem is how the characters were presented, I don't think we really needed the prequels to have a good idea of the Emperors background, he was an evil force user who had subverted a former democracy. Snoke on the other hand is this character who's suddenly appeared dispite us being told the Sith were finished, taken control of the remains of the Empire and turned the tide against the good guys, that to me demands much more explanation.

Even more importantly I think his role in Kylo's original turn demands much more explanation than Vader's turn did. The original films aren't really about Vader and the motivation we see effecting him saving his son is a perfectly understandable one. Kylo in the sequels though is a character who's motivations are key to the story, why does he turn? why does he kill his father? the answer seems to be "just because".

The problem for me really all goes back to hiring JJ Abrams, that for me was a really cheap copout by Disney.picking a guy who would deliver a safe diversion but had been proven to lack much depth to his work. TFA was basically a nostalgia fest that did very very little to actually build the story/characters/setting.

Abrams generally for me is clearly the most over rated director of the modern era.

I generally agree, I still don't give a fuck about Snoke; fuck that guy, but you bring up an interesting point about Kylo Ren, which is more intriguing now that I actually give a shit about him.

Snoke's back story just isn't that interesting to me and in my mind, his rise to power isn't something I cared about exploring. Like I said earlier, "geek bait". Palpatine died, okay, but the death of one leader does not necessarily topple an Empire. Did the US stop being a country because JFK was assinated? As for losing their world destroying super weapon, no biggie, they fucking built a 3rd one for TFA.

I am in total agreement that Abrams is a hack and I feel like if anyone wants to shit on TLJ, in fairness, they should be willing to shit on TFA as well.

 

[jlagman]

Update: March 27, 2018

Watch the Honest Trailer for STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

Great follow up, IMO.

 

[HunterAcosta]

I generally agree, I still don't give a fuck about Snoke; fuck that guy, but you bring up an interesting point about Kylo Ren, which is more intriguing now that I actually give a shit about him.

Snoke's back story just isn't that interesting to me and in my mind, his rise to power isn't something I cared about exploring. Like I said earlier, "geek bait". Palpatine died, okay, but the death of one leader does not necessarily topple an Empire. Did the US stop being a country because JFK was assinated? As for losing their world destroying super weapon, no biggie, they fucking built a 3rd one for TFA.

I am in total agreement that Abrams is a hack and I feel like if anyone wants to shit on TLJ, in fairness, they should be willing to shit on TFA as well.

I think that snokes backstory is interesting is because in the novels, palpatine senses a presence in the outer regions that is very powerful in the dark side, even more powerful than him. He sends legions looking to discover what is out there. I think that alone warrants at least SOMETHING in a backstory. I mean, palpatine the bad ass, actually has someone out there that is more powerful than him AND hes the only one who can sense it and knows of it? Call me crazy but I am interested in that. I agree that the empire wouldnt end just cause of palpatine and vaders death. I do agree that both movies were kinda shit, and tfa even more.

 

[Fanu]

this movie has horrible acting and character motivations are all over the place

its a really weak movie on its own and if not for star wars branding, would probably get ignored and regarded in same vein as a generic netflix sf movie..

 

[Deleted member 110072]

I generally agree, I still don't give a fuck about Snoke; fuck that guy, but you bring up an interesting point about Kylo Ren, which is more intriguing now that I actually give a shit about him.

Snoke's back story just isn't that interesting to me and in my mind, his rise to power isn't something I cared about exploring. Like I said earlier, "geek bait". Palpatine died, okay, but the death of one leader does not necessarily topple an Empire. Did the US stop being a country because JFK was assinated? As for losing their world destroying super weapon, no biggie, they fucking built a 3rd one for TFA.

I am in total agreement that Abrams is a hack and I feel like if anyone wants to shit on TLJ, in fairness, they should be willing to shit on TFA as well.

I think the issue is TFA had a lot of goodwill post prequels, people felt they almost had to like it to justify the reaction to Lucas's films rather than acknowledging the weakness of both.

 

[Clear Winner]

Basically it was exactly what a lot of the criticism made it at the time, Abrams falling back onto cheap mystery's he didn't have any answer to in order to cover a lack of depth in his film.

Part of the problem was I think way too many people were invested in loving TFA well before release and in praising Abrams as the payoff to over a decade of takedowns of the prequels.

Classic JJ.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Classic JJ.

I remember on release some people called him on this but those singing his praises claimed he definitely had a plan.....

It didn't help we had the likes of Stuckman posting simplistic "blockbuster 101" as if it was some magic formula for a classic film and then having to drool all over TFA rather than admit he was talking bollocks.

 

[Clear Winner]

I remember on release some people called him on this but those singing his praises claimed he definitely had a plan.....

In a way, I kind of feel bad for Rian. I liked Looper a lot and had high really high hopes for TLJ. Having said that, as much as JJ kind of stitched him up, he didn't stitch him up that badly. You also have to wonder how much Disney was in his ear making him put stuff in that he didn't want in there. Visually, I felt it was amazing.

I suppose it ultimately comes down to the fact that if they didn't go into this trilogy with a clear plan for all three movies, it was going to be a clusterfuck no matter what. Should have had one writer and three directors or ideally one writer and one director.

 

[IamStryker]

I think this movie is only going to get worse with time.

 

[Magooglie]

In a way, I kind of feel bad for Rian. I liked Looper a lot and had high really high hopes for TLJ. Having said that, as much as JJ kind of stitched him up, he didn't stitch him up that badly. You also have to wonder how much Disney was in his ear making him put stuff in that he didn't want in there. Visually, I felt it was amazing.

I suppose it ultimately comes down to the fact that if they didn't go into this trilogy with a clear plan for all three movies, it was going to be a clusterfuck no matter what. Should have had one writer and three directors or ideally one writer and one director.

Star Wars needs a Kevin Feige. Kathleen Kennedy isn't cutting it. I think the problem with Rian Johnson may not have been Disney in his ear but that no one was in his hear. They probably let him write the script on his own, green lit it with no review, and then made the movie.

 

[Social Distance Warrior]

Let me guess, you liked his pointless cameo in that shitty, unnecessary Rogue One movie too.

I came in my fucking pants.

 

[Clear Winner]

Star Wars needs a Kevin Feige. Kathleen Kennedy isn't cutting it. I think the problem with Rian Johnson may not have been Disney in his ear but that no one was in his hear. They probably let him write the script on his own, green lit it with no review, and then made the movie.

Agree on the first part and couldn't disagree more with the 2nd. Do you really think Disney would let that happen? Unless you're being sarcastic, in which case...

<[analyzed}>

There's nothing from his previous films that would suggest that this was 100% his script.

 

[Magooglie]

Agree on the first part and couldn't disagree more with the 2nd. Do you really think Disney would let that happen? Unless you're being sarcastic, in which case...

<[analyzed}>

There's nothing from his previous films that would suggest that this was 100% his script.

He actively defends what he did in this movie. They went from rehashing Episode 4 in Episode 7 to making this disjointed turd and Rian Johnson is the main culprit. Disney probably has two demands, space battles and lightsaber fights. Lucasfilm is still in charge of producing the movies and Kathleen Kennedy seems to like Rian, enough to announce he's getting 3 additional movies where he can further do whatever he wants.

 

[Clear Winner]

He actively defends what he did in this movie. They went from rehashing Episode 4 in Episode 7 to making this disjointed turd and Rian Johnson is the main culprit. Disney probably has two demands, space battles and lightsaber fights. Lucasfilm is still in charge of producing the movies and Kathleen Kennedy seems to like Rian, enough to announce he's getting 3 additional movies where he can further do whatever he wants.

Well, if he's still in their good books and no doubt will want to atone for the shitshow, he wouldn't want to piss them off and blame them.

I don't see any way they greenlit it without a review and didn't have a say in the plot.

 

[BAM]

Star Wars needs a Kevin Feige. Kathleen Kennedy isn't cutting it. I think the problem with Rian Johnson may not have been Disney in his ear but that no one was in his hear. They probably let him write the script on his own, green lit it with no review, and then made the movie.

Taking into consideration the series of directors she has already fired, I doubt that.

Phil Lord and Christopher Miller got fired from the Han Solo movie, Colin Trevorrow from IX and they reshot a bunch of Gareth Edwards work in Rogue One. If anything Rian probably got micromanaged

 

[BisexualMMA]

Taking into consideration the series of directors she has already fired, I doubt that.

Phil Lord and Christopher Miller got fired from the Han Solo movie, Colin Trevorrow from IX and they reshot a bunch of Gareth Edwards work in Rogue One. If anything Rian probably got micromanaged

While what you say makes sense, Episode 8 still came across to me as the unbridled work of an arrogant auteur.

Other than product placement inserts, I don't think Johnson received much in the way of strict guidance, because he came to the table with a script that Kathleen Kennedy could jill off to from the get-go.

 

[Magooglie]

Well, if he's still in their good books and no doubt will want to atone for the shitshow, he wouldn't want to piss them off and blame them.

I don't see any way they greenlit it without a review and didn't have a say in the plot.

Kathleen Kennedy probably liked it. She probably thinks Holdo is cool and Luke being dead is exciting. She has a ton of confidence in Rian Johnson. She was George Lucas' #2 for a long time, so while she may be a good administrator I don't think she's a creative force. She hasn't had to be. But she does get to green light stuff.

 

[Magooglie]

Taking into consideration the series of directors she has already fired, I doubt that.

Phil Lord and Christopher Miller got fired from the Han Solo movie, Colin Trevorrow from IX and they reshot a bunch of Gareth Edwards work in Rogue One. If anything Rian probably got micromanaged

Or she just has too much confidence in Rian Johnson.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

In a way, I kind of feel bad for Rian. I liked Looper a lot and had high really high hopes for TLJ. Having said that, as much as JJ kind of stitched him up, he didn't stitch him up that badly. You also have to wonder how much Disney was in his ear making him put stuff in that he didn't want in there. Visually, I felt it was amazing.

I suppose it ultimately comes down to the fact that if they didn't go into this trilogy with a clear plan for all three movies, it was going to be a clusterfuck no matter what. Should have had one writer and three directors or ideally one writer and one director.

Yeah I'd agree, they should have hired someone with ambition and a clear plan right from the start but instead they took the easy option with all star hack Abrams. The problem I suspect was that the money involved was so massive that Disney didn't want any risk at all along with a product delivered quickly.

As you say Looper is a very good film that shows strong writing and directing so it does make me wonder how much he was messed around by Disney. To me the structure of TLJ just feels strange, a film that's really unbalanced due to a lot of messing around with the script without time to properly rework it. Most obviously I feel the whole climax seems rather tacked on, as if the Rey/Kylo/Snoke plot was intended to be the real climax and then Disney got cold feet about following though with that potentially having Rey join or at least not outright reject him, "sorry you can't do that, dump it and just throw in a reworking of Hoth at the end instead".

I could see some pressure on him as well to follow Abrams cartoonish/meta humour style as well which I think really wasn't his forte at all, hence the very poor results.

Taking into consideration the series of directors she has already fired, I doubt that.

Phil Lord and Christopher Miller got fired from the Han Solo movie, Colin Trevorrow from IX and they reshot a bunch of Gareth Edwards work in Rogue One. If anything Rian probably got micromanaged

To be fair with Rogue One I think it was always intended to do reshoots, Edwards shot a massive amount of footage originally with the view to constructing the film very heavily in the editing room then reshooting some more footage to fill in the gaps. Its more I suspect that there were doubts it could be done ontime and Gilroy was brought in to make sure it could be, he worked with Edwards in a similar kind of role on Godzilla.

Lord/Miller I wonder whether Lucasfilm didn't give them too much freedom then realise they were producing a screwball comedy, Marvel I suspect tend to look to stamp their mark earlier in production, hence Edgar Wright being forced out before shooting even started.

 

[benebox]

I actually enjoy this film more than the first one but I didn't really like the first one either. Obviously I had high expectations for the first one so maybe that played a part.

The only good thing about this one was when they teased us about Rey and Kylo turning sides. However it made it all the more dissapointing when they went the boring route. Even if they didn't want to make Rey completely turn to the dark side I think the film would be more praised had they led us on a bit and then made it all an act to try save her comrades.