STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

[minute bull]

I don’t know what you mean.

Is trump the hero? I’m not sure what you’re saying

So, it should probably not come as a surprise to anyone - or maybe it should, given the Saga's evolution to Disney toy-selling advertisement - that the first Star Wars we've received following the election of Donald Trump (who enjoys constant comparisons to Richard Nixon) plays not only as a willful act of franchise upheaval, but social protest, as well. It's a movie that asks us to not only let the past die, but to "kill it, if you have to." Our heroes no longer hail from legendary lineage, but are children of junk traders, sold off for drinking money. At the same time, the elite are the ones leading a fleet of veritable Space Nazis, thrilled to decimate not only the Republic, but also put down anyone who objects to their growing First Order. Johnson's The Last Jedi is a space operetta for viewers who've lost hope in those who're supposed to have their best interests at heart, calling for resistance against foolhardy men and the worshipping of legacy.

To begin to understand a protest movie, we must first know what it's protesting against. One of the main fan criticisms of Supreme Leader Snoke (Andy Serkis) as a character is that he's an empty vessel - devoid of backstory beyond being a Force-sensitive dictator, molded in the image of Lucas' Emperor Palpatine. Following JJ Abrams' The Force Awakens, numerous fan theories cropped up, attempting to both explain and predict how he fit into the Saga's overall narrative. Taken on a surface level, Snoke's actually a perfect Trump stand-in - a megalomaniacal empty shirt, looking to rid the galaxy of every last inch of his predecessors' existence, flanked by two Large Adult Sons (Adam Driver's Kylo Ren and Domhnall Gleeson's Armitage Hux), who seek to earn his approval through victories over their perceived enemies in The Resistance. He demands absolute worship, despite the fact we have no idea what he's done to earn it at all. His vacuousness is actually purposeful, a leader who seized power, but now only wants to use it to destroy instead of create.....
http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/12/18/from-vietnam-to-trump-the-last-jedi-as-protest-film
No rebuttals, please. I'm not interested.

 

[minute bull]

Rian Johnson Addresses the Big Changes to the Force in The Last Jedi

The truth is, because “Star Wars” until “The Force Awakens” has been set in amber and we hadn’t had a new “Star Wars” movie in 10 years, you forget that they were introducing new Force stuff with each movie, based on the requirements of the story. Force-grabbing didn’t come around until “Empire,” it wasn’t in “A New Hope.” Same with Force ghosts. They’d introduce new ideas of what could happen with the Force each time.

So Johnson does that and then some.

Spoiler

First of all, there’s the idea that Yoda can manipulate the real world from beyond the grave.

The one point where we do introduce a bit of a twist in terms of Force ghosts is where Yoda calls down the lightning onto the tree. That, I think, is a tantalizing hint of the potential of someone who is a Force ghost interacting with the real world.

There’s also the moment where Princess Leia, seemingly dead in space, uses the Force to fly back onto the ship.

That was something Kathy [Kennedy] was always asking: Why has this never manifested in Leia? She obviously made a choice, because in “Return of the Jedi” Luke tells her, “You have that power too.” I liked the idea that it’s not Luke concentrating, reaching for the lightsaber; it’s an instinctual survival thing, like when you hear stories of a parent whose toddler is caught under a car and they get superhuman strength, or a drowning person clawing their way to the surface. It’s basically just her not being done with the fight yet.

I wanted it to happen [for Carrie] and I knew it was going to be a stretch. It’s a big moment, and I’m sure it will land different ways for different people, but for me it felt like a really emotionally satisfying thing to see.

Then there’s the Kylo and Rey “ForceTime” sessions (a term used in the L.A. Times piece that we should all adopt). Johnson says the primary reason for the discussion was to get the characters talking and comfortable with each other, but without being in the same place. Because if they were in the same place, they would have just fought. How to do it though? The Force.

I knew I wanted them to talk, and to talk enough to where we could go from “I hate you,” to her being forced to actually engage with him. That’s where the idea of these “Force connections” came from, which is kind of a new thing. It’s a little bit of a riff on what happens with Vader and Luke at the end of “The Empire Strikes Back,” but it’s entirely new in some regards.

Finally, there’s the big one, Luke projecting a version of himself to distract the First Order for the Resistance (which has been used previously in the comics, see image below). Here’s what Johnson had to say about that.

When Luke shows up he’s projecting, it’s like a hardcore variation of what Kylo and Rey have been doing the whole time and that’s why it takes so much out of him....We tried to play really, really fair. In terms of his footsteps – we removed all of his foley — there are no footstep sounds. They never touch. And if you look, the salt flakes that are falling are sparking off of Kylo’s saber and not off of Luke’s.

Whether or not you buy Johnson’s reasoning for these changes or the ability for the characters to do it, you can’t say he didn’t think about them all. Plus, he’s right. The original films similarly revealed new powers each time. We’re learning about the Force as we go on. They’ve just been part of our Star Wars understanding for so long, we forget at one point, they were new, too. Like The Last Jedi is now.

 

[streets ahead]

I feel they tried to make a socially important movie rather than a good one. The anti-rich thing is hilarious coming from fucking Disney.

The resistance is stupid Poe should have been thrown in jail at the first opportunity. Finn and less attractive sister were worthless.

This movie sucked and my brother-in-law is trolling me by saying it's better than Empire.

 

[Substance Abuse]

As you said, they should have had them spend more time in the casino. It seemed like two minutes of screentime before Finn and Rose got taken to jail and BB8 got tossed out on his ass. Why couldn't they meet the codebreaker in the casino? Maybe Finn has to win some science fiction-y type of card game in order to generate the cash to get the guy on board. There were a bunch of ways you could have gone with it.

Make it like Casino Royale, with Bond. That would've been better than the fucking fight scene with Phasma.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

So, it should probably not come as a surprise to anyone - or maybe it should, given the Saga's evolution to Disney toy-selling advertisement - that the first Star Wars we've received following the election of Donald Trump (who enjoys constant comparisons to Richard Nixon) plays not only as a willful act of franchise upheaval, but social protest, as well. It's a movie that asks us to not only let the past die, but to "kill it, if you have to." Our heroes no longer hail from legendary lineage, but are children of junk traders, sold off for drinking money. At the same time, the elite are the ones leading a fleet of veritable Space Nazis, thrilled to decimate not only the Republic, but also put down anyone who objects to their growing First Order. Johnson's The Last Jedi is a space operetta for viewers who've lost hope in those who're supposed to have their best interests at heart, calling for resistance against foolhardy men and the worshipping of legacy.

To begin to understand a protest movie, we must first know what it's protesting against. One of the main fan criticisms of Supreme Leader Snoke (Andy Serkis) as a character is that he's an empty vessel - devoid of backstory beyond being a Force-sensitive dictator, molded in the image of Lucas' Emperor Palpatine. Following JJ Abrams' The Force Awakens, numerous fan theories cropped up, attempting to both explain and predict how he fit into the Saga's overall narrative. Taken on a surface level, Snoke's actually a perfect Trump stand-in - a megalomaniacal empty shirt, looking to rid the galaxy of every last inch of his predecessors' existence, flanked by two Large Adult Sons (Adam Driver's Kylo Ren and Domhnall Gleeson's Armitage Hux), who seek to earn his approval through victories over their perceived enemies in The Resistance. He demands absolute worship, despite the fact we have no idea what he's done to earn it at all. His vacuousness is actually purposeful, a leader who seized power, but now only wants to use it to destroy instead of create.....
No rebuttals, please. I'm not interested.

The first Star Wars has political overtones as well.

 

[sickc0d3r]

Man....i just can't wrap my mind around this.
Ive heard multiple people say similar things...amd i canf understand how "interesting choices" = good choices
A lot of things happened that i didnt think would. ..and most of them were not good. Im not understanding how being not what you expected = good.

I am not a SW nerd at all. I just watched the movies about 4 years ago...and i have only seen 1 of the original ones in full.
So as a casual fan, Luke wrecking shit > Luke force projection hara-kiri.
That's just a no brainer.

And Rose...jesus...i really wish i could understand the good, or point you saw in that character. She was a complete waste of time.

See I feel they dropped the ball hard with Del Toro, should have made him much more important. Instead we get a pointless subplot with fin and ole girl accomplishing nothing. I kept expecting them to pull something out of their ass with Del Toro.

Rose represents the reason for the resistance to exist. The casino shed light on the profiteering side of this conflict, where the only goal is to ensure it continues. Rose was a glimpse of the oppressed youth who will rise up and fight for their freedom, like that boy with the broom. Finn is continuing his journey from storm trooper to unwilling resistance fighter to whatever he will eventually become, and that whole subplot served to evolve his character. Like him or not, he's a key player in the trilogy.

BDT could have been in every scene and I'd have been happy, but I thought they used him well. I suspect he'll be back with more influence next time. His contribution was notable, if understated.

Other quick thoughts...

Rey sensed that Kylo will not bow to Snoke and she was right. Where she went wrong was in thinking that meant he would turn to light. But, Kylo is craftier and more powerful than in TFA, and he saw his opportunity to kill and replace Snoke. Smashing the mask was symbolic of his transformation. Time and again, throughout the film, we are told to let the past die.

And if Snoke died, Luke had to die. Balance. Luke's outwitting Kylo with his amazing force projection was pretty awesome. Of course a light saber battle would have been great too, maybe better, but I'm content with the choices Rian made. It was consistent with the story and his character and I liked it.

All in all, I am so far away from what a lot of you guys think about this film that it probably isn't worth debating. Having seen it a second time there are small details I missed before and nuances in the characters that made me like it even more. It's not just a great movie, it's a beautiful movie. I suppose there are things I would change (space Leia)... yeah "chrome dome" isn't the greatest line of dialogue ever written, but then, there are any number of less than memorable quips from great movies that don't detract from their greatness. Hell, "I'll be back" isn't exactly pulitzer material. That stuff is just nitpicking. I think this movie will be raking in repeat views in the coming months because it is an awesome movie, worth seeing more than once. I hope it breaks all the records.

 

[minute bull]

The first Star Wars has political overtones as well.

I SAID...

Yeah, they all do.

Originally George Lucas wanted to do APOCALYPSE NOW but the studio had no faith, and so FFC stepped in (and artistically ruined his life thereafter).

Without a film what Lucas did was take the spirit of his version of AN and apply it to this little project he never thought would fly, let alone at lightspeed -- which was called LUKE STARKILLER AND THE BATTLE OF THE WHILLS or something mondo gay like that. Steven Spielberg bet him STAR WARS would do better than his movie at the time, and George is still paying Spielberg today (not really, I think).

(Turns out a Whill? Is what Yoda is. Hunh. Because, you know, where there's a Whill there's a way .... *wonky horn*).

What I'm saying is A NEW HOPE is APOCALYPSE NOW a long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. It's George Lucas and his pinko commie idolatry.

By the time of the Prequels, George has grown up so his focus was on trade embargoes and galactic-nee-international socio-economics. Real George Bush league shit.

And so it is with the new trilogy. What are we gonna call it? The Shitogy? Rey Days With Ren and Gimpy?

Good films reflect not just great story, but who the filmmakers are, in the context of the zeitgeist in which they find themselves. Like Captain Hellstrom implies, if KING-KONG isn't about the Negro treatment in America then it's just a movie about a big ape. Sometimes the audience overrates these political undertones as being preachy, but no it's still a story device to quickly convey a certain meaning and significance. The onus is still on the story, not the metaphors it comprises.

 

[Cool Hand Luke]

So, it should probably not come as a surprise to anyone - or maybe it should, given the Saga's evolution to Disney toy-selling advertisement - that the first Star Wars we've received following the election of Donald Trump (who enjoys constant comparisons to Richard Nixon) plays not only as a willful act of franchise upheaval, but social protest, as well. It's a movie that asks us to not only let the past die, but to "kill it, if you have to." Our heroes no longer hail from legendary lineage, but are children of junk traders, sold off for drinking money. At the same time, the elite are the ones leading a fleet of veritable Space Nazis, thrilled to decimate not only the Republic, but also put down anyone who objects to their growing First Order. Johnson's The Last Jedi is a space operetta for viewers who've lost hope in those who're supposed to have their best interests at heart, calling for resistance against foolhardy men and the worshipping of legacy.

To begin to understand a protest movie, we must first know what it's protesting against. One of the main fan criticisms of Supreme Leader Snoke (Andy Serkis) as a character is that he's an empty vessel - devoid of backstory beyond being a Force-sensitive dictator, molded in the image of Lucas' Emperor Palpatine. Following JJ Abrams' The Force Awakens, numerous fan theories cropped up, attempting to both explain and predict how he fit into the Saga's overall narrative. Taken on a surface level, Snoke's actually a perfect Trump stand-in - a megalomaniacal empty shirt, looking to rid the galaxy of every last inch of his predecessors' existence, flanked by two Large Adult Sons (Adam Driver's Kylo Ren and Domhnall Gleeson's Armitage Hux), who seek to earn his approval through victories over their perceived enemies in The Resistance. He demands absolute worship, despite the fact we have no idea what he's done to earn it at all. His vacuousness is actually purposeful, a leader who seized power, but now only wants to use it to destroy instead of create.....
No rebuttals, please. I'm not interested.

typical liberal, uninterested in debate but quick to take jabs at Trump

 

[Substance Abuse]

I SAID...

Yeah, they all do.

Originally George Lucas wanted to do APOCALYPSE NOW but the studio had no faith, and so FFC stepped in (and artistically ruined his life thereafter).

Without a film what Lucas did was take the spirit of his version of AN and apply it to this little project he never thought would fly, let alone at lightspeed -- which was called LUKE STARKILLER AND THE BATTLE OF THE WHILLS or something mondo gay like that. Steven Spielberg bet him STAR WARS would do better than his movie at the time, and George is still paying Spielberg today (not really, I think).

(Turns out a Whill? Is what Yoda is. Hunh. Because, you know, where there's a Whill there's a way .... *wonky horn*).

What I'm saying is A NEW HOPE is APOCALYPSE NOW a long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. It's George Lucas and his pinko commie idolatry.

By the time of the Prequels, George has grown up so his focus was on trade embargoes and galactic-nee-international socio-economics. Real George Bush league shit.

And so it is with the new trilogy. What are we gonna call it? The Shitogy? Rey Days With Ren and Gimpy?

Good films reflect not just great story, but who the filmmakers are, in the context of the zeitgeist in which they find themselves. Like Captain Hellstrom implies, if KING-KONG isn't about the Negro treatment in America then it's just a movie about a big ape. Sometimes the audience overrates these political undertones as being preachy, but no it's still a story device to quickly convey a certain meaning and significance. The onus is still on the story, not the metaphors it comprises.

I appreciate you articulating yourself in detail rather than telling us we're idiots in your eyes, this movie isn't good in my eyes.

 

[ufcfan4]

Rose represents the reason for the resistance to exist. The casino shed light on the profiteering side of this conflict, where the only goal is to ensure it continues. Rose was a glimpse of the oppressed youth who will rise up and fight for their freedom, like that boy with the broom. Finn is continuing his journey from storm trooper to unwilling resistance fighter to whatever he will eventually become, and that whole subplot served to evolve his character. Like him or not, he's a key player in the trilogy.

BDT could have been in every scene and I'd have been happy, but I thought they used him well. I suspect he'll be back with more influence next time. His contribution was notable, if understated.

Other quick thoughts...

Rey sensed that Kylo will not bow to Snoke and she was right. Where she went wrong was in thinking that meant he would turn to light. But, Kylo is craftier and more powerful than in TFA, and he saw his opportunity to kill and replace Snoke. Smashing the mask was symbolic of his transformation. Time and again, throughout the film, we are told to let the past die.

And if Snoke died, Luke had to die. Balance. Luke's outwitting Kylo with his amazing force projection was pretty awesome. Of course a light saber battle would have been great too, maybe better, but I'm content with the choices Rian made. It was consistent with the story and his character and I liked it.

All in all, I am so far away from what a lot of you guys think about this film that it probably isn't worth debating. Having seen it a second time there are small details I missed before and nuances in the characters that made me like it even more. It's not just a great movie, it's a beautiful movie. I suppose there are things I would change (space Leia)... yeah "chrome dome" isn't the greatest line of dialogue ever written, but then, there are any number of less than memorable quips from great movies that don't detract from their greatness. Hell, "I'll be back" isn't exactly pulitzer material. That stuff is just nitpicking. I think this movie will be raking in repeat views in the coming months because it is an awesome movie, worth seeing more than once. I hope it breaks all the records.

I like discussion and I like that the movie has provoked a lot of divergent opinions. Frankly, it's definitely a film I will watch again (having already seen it twice). I'm somewhere in between. Certainly don't see it as a masterpiece but think it's also getting more shit than I feel it should be. Good movie, flaws notwithstanding.

 

[CoolB]

If there is one thing the negativity in this thread and in general about this star wars film accomplished its that it made me like it even more.

I throughally enjoyed this movie even if there are some holes. There is still a 3rd movie to pull this story all together and I don't really believe everything as it was presented to us in TLJ.

 

[minute bull]

I appreciate you articulating yourself in detail rather than telling us we're idiots in your eyes, this movie isn't good in my eyes.

Thanks, I enjoy a spirited discussion -- though it hasn't been atypical of me to overstep propriety during filmchat. I never intend to be cruel, although my jokes often trend that way.

My thing is I loathe when I can tell there's a good movie but for some reason or another my initial reception is lukewarm. This happened with NO COUNTRY FOR OLD MAN and KINGSMAN. With the former, it took another viewing to finally appreciate the impact; the latter I needed some help with comprehension. Now I thoroughly enjoy both and can readily rewatch them at any time, not that anyone should really ever do that. It's obsessive.

But I will say that if you do go down that route, THE LAST JEDI will be ultimately a rewarding cinematic experience. It's solid, clever, and fun -- and does a tremendous amount of heavy lifting that's waiting to received when the mood is just right.

 

[Pseudo Sane]

I feel they tried to make a socially important movie rather than a good one. The anti-rich thing is hilarious coming from fucking Disney.

The resistance is stupid Poe should have been thrown in jail at the first opportunity. Finn and less attractive sister were worthless.

This movie sucked and my brother-in-law is trolling me by saying it's better than Empire.

Yeah, I thought the anti-rich thing was actually pretty funny coming from Disney. 'The only way to get this rich is by selling weapons to the First Order'. Really Disney? Are you sure you can't get rich being a cynical entertainment conglomerate?

Just FYI, Lockheed Martin is the biggest arms manufacturer in the world, and has a market cap of 92.416B, with revenues of 46 billion and change in 2015 (last date for which I can quickly find data). It is a big company. It employs 126,000 people! Wow! Arms dealer! Merchants of death!

Humble old Disney, by contrast, only has a market cap of 168.36B (82% bigger than Lockheed martin), revenue of $52.4 billion in 2015 (13% more than Lockheed Martin), and employs a mere195,000 (54% more than Lockheed Martin).

But yeah, obviously all rich evil shitheads are arms dealers. Honestly, from what we know about the entertainment industry, the degenerate fucks who populate Canto Bight are more likely to be Space Weinsteins or Space Spaceys than Space Hewsons.

 

[Substance Abuse]

Thanks, I enjoy a spirited discussion -- though it hasn't been atypical of me to overstep propriety during filmchat. I never intend to be cruel, although my jokes often trend that way.

My thing is I loathe when I can tell there's a good movie but for some reason or another my initial reception is lukewarm. This happened with NO COUNTRY FOR OLD MAN and KINGSMAN. With the former, it took another viewing to finally appreciate the impact; the latter I needed some help with comprehension. Now I thoroughly enjoy both and can readily rewatch them at any time, not that anyone should really ever do that. It's obsessive.

But I will say that if you do go down that route, THE LAST JEDI will be ultimately a rewarding cinematic experience. It's solid, clever, and fun -- and does a tremendous amount of heavy lifting that's waiting to received when the mood is just right.

I will eventually watch it again, but only on the home market. I was incredibly disappointed with it, even more so when thinking about how much I enjoy Brick and Looper by Johnson and how good of a director I know he is. Maybe it will grow on me. Time will tell.

 

[heavyarms21]

Saw it again, hated it more , 4/10.

 

[minute bull]

I will eventually watch it again, but only on the home market. I was incredibly disappointed with it... Time will tell.

You're in for a treat. If anything, it's only up from here.

Saw it again, hated it more , 4/10.

...Shit.

I enjoy Brick and Looper by Johnson and how good of a director I know he is.

I think he's a good filmmaker and his trilogy should be a pretty good one (although I hope he won't be the only one in the director's seat). This trilogy should have been more cohesive rather than fast-tracked. It's seems unbelievable Disney would need to capitalize THIS quickly.

I would have liked it if Disney put the heads together of Rian Johnson, Matt Reeves, and Ryan Coogler -- with JJ Abrams and Ron Howard playing hired guns. With the exception of Matt Reeves it seems like it wouldn't have been too difficult to wrangle such talent. (Really: I'd get the Wachowskis, Michael Mann, and yes still Ridley Scott on it.) And with the exception of maybe Oscar Isaac, recast everyone with stalwarts who can deliver a fucking performance that can still rock despite squaring off against something like a squid-face dude. These young'uns need mo' seasoning. Lil mo' character, lil mo'.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

A lot of the issue with this film to me felt like a mismatch between his style and what had been handed down to him by Abrams.

Really though if anyone comes out of Disney's SW looking good so far its Gareth Edwards who actually seems like a fan of the originals rather than just someone playing off of other peoples attachment to parts of them.

 

[minute bull]

what had been handed down to him by Abrams.

Complete handicap. Like, it was almost a personal thing how bad Abrams left shit.

 

[A Pennysworth]

typical liberal, uninterested in debate but quick to take jabs at Trump

You would have more success debating that Hitler was a good leader than you would Trump imo

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Complete handicap. Like, it was almost a personal thing how bad Abrams left shit.

Honestly I think people were so geared up to love TFA as an expression of there negative view of the prequels they gave it vastly too much leeway.

It probably doesn't help either that we've now had Rogue One released that actually tried to recreate the style of the originals not be a shallow action/nostalgia diversion. Abrams I think had the same problem with Trek Into Darkness as bringing back Khan ment people actually compared the film to Trek II and judged it for the shallow confused mess it was.

There is actually some interesting work in The Last Jedi by comparison(the Kylo scenes) but its mixed in with so much that's questionable with a lot of that being down to Abrams legacy.