Crime Stand your ground? No

[My Spot]

OP has full blown TDS

It's cute that he's pretending to care about the woman and her family when he just wanted to REEEEEEEE off about having more gun control.

 

[mozfonky]

You can see my post to old shadow for my extended thoughts, but I agree that the UK police do a very good job in most cases when dealing with knives using non lethal force.

However, it is my strong opinion that no police should ever in a situation where they need a gun and don’t have one because their country only allows criminals and a few cops to have the guns. I watch slow horses in Apple-really good show, anyway, it amazes me that their agents don’t have firearms or access to them and one agent has to buy a gun off the streets or at a shady pawn shop or something-it was several seasons ago.

And I am going to choose to 100% disagree with the notion that police or anyone else should be aiming anywhere but center mass of the target to so many reasons. First, if you’re justified in shooting someone, fucking shoot them-don’t take risks for yourself or others trying to hit a non vital body part. Second related to the first, if you justified in shooting someone-they have done something to make an officer believe that they are an immediate and dangerous threat to the officer and/kr another person-so you have to stop that threat as quickly as possible so you aim center mass where of the good stuff is located that are most likely to quickly stop the threat.

Third, police are trained to aim center mass because during a tense situation, your aim can be less true than it would be during a day at the range. You have adrenaline pumping, your sympathetic nervous system (fight, flight, freeze response) is activated, you have narrowing vision due to your pupil dilating, the dexterity in your hands and fingers is less than normal because all the blood is pulled to your core to protect your vital organs because SNS activation =threat, your heart is racing, your breathing gets rapid and shallow, and several other body changes such as PH changes in the blood chemistry that affects how you absorb oxygen and how your hormones travel in the blood-and did I mention your heart IS FUCKING RACING?

All these things happen within a second and you’re asking an officer to not aim at the biggest target they possibly have?

You want an officer to try and score a leg shot (thanks for reinforcing that shit, biden you fucking moron).

Maybe shoot the knife out of the suspects hand?

Oh boy-as I said, police aim for center mass for quick stopping power. They also aim at center mass because it a the biggest target. They don’t aim for legs for several reasons-chiefly, it doesn’t always stop the attacker. I have seen plenty of videos where people are shot multiple times center mass and they just keep coming. If the suspect has a gun and let’s say you shoot them in the leg and they go down-they can still pull the trigger. Two more quick points about leg shots and I am done. How about the suspect is running towards you or someone else-it would be hard at to hit them in the legs as they are running towards you with a knife-let alone, running away from you or worse, and inning across a field and you are trying to hit them as they cross in front of you. And finally, you don’t aim for the legs or arms because if you miss with that shot-that bullet isn’t coming back. When you miss, that bullet has to go somewhere. Sometimes, it s the ground. Sometimes, it hits a tree or you never find what it hits. But other times, you shoot and miss and you may hit a house, a car, someone in the background-maybe a child. This is especially true in the streets or a crowd nearby. You want your shots on target and you achieve that by making the shot as easy as possible under very stressful circumstances

Not reading all that right now, I will say it's great when some jackass claiming some crazy woman is a such a threat they just had to kill her gets sent away. It's sick and they're sick and those days need to end.

 

[nhbbear]

Not reading all that right now, I will say it's great when some jackass claiming some crazy woman is a such a threat they just had to kill her gets sent away. It's sick and they're sick and those days need to end.

I don’t know what to tell you if you’re not going to read the response

 

[Gutter Chris]

The only situation in which I'd give the homeowner a slight pass is if he had recent break in attempts. And still, he should be charged with manslaughter.

She hadn't entered his home and I don't think she was trying to bang down the door to get in either. Just being on someone's doorstep means they have bad intentions.

Also through the door means failure to properly identify your target , failure to know what is beyond your target and someone being on your porch is not in and of itself a threat

We covered shooting through the front door at shit in my shooting classes and concluded that it's almost (almost)never the correct move and a great way to end up in prison.

 

[ssBaldy]

Also through the door means failure to properly identify your target , failure to know what is beyond your target and someone being on your porch is not in and of itself a threat

We covered shooting through the front door at shit in my shooting classes and concluded that it's almost (almost)never the correct move and a great way to end up in prison.

Hard to argue here. Apart from the intruders actively breaking the door I don't see reasons to shoot through it.

 

[mozfonky]

I don’t know what to tell you if you’re not going to read the response

I don't always have a laptop in front of me and not always sitting at a place to read a wall of text.

Anyway, if it all means that much to you, I suggest you send some ky jelly and commisary money to your defrocked and humiliated comrades in arms, Chauvin definitely could have used a gun when he was shanked, send that boy a cake with a jig saw in it, and water boy could use some lube. Personally, I hope they both need colostomy bags for life if they make it out.

 

[mozfonky]

Hard to argue here. Apart from the intruders actively breaking the door I don't see reasons to shoot through it.

american machismo is all it is.

 

[IanEdwards]

I watch slow horses in Apple-really good show, anyway, it amazes me that their agents don’t have firearms or access to them and one agent has to buy a gun off the streets or at a shady pawn shop or something-it was several seasons ago.

Slow Horses is fiction showing fictional situations. MI5 are an intelligence-gathering org not a hands-on org that throw down with terrorists and enemy spies or whatever, they have to jazz their role up for tv purposes i suppose because following what MI5 really do would be really, really dry. I haven't seen the show but if they are showing 'agents' in jeopardy-type situations on any kind of regular basis they are showing entirely fictional scenarios, the vast majority of people who work for MI5 are analyst geeks and the vast majority of work they do is behind a screen. If they were looking to apprehend a threat or go into a situation where firearms were necessary they would so do in the company of armed police. Thats just how UK LEO's/Intel agencies are organised.

 

[IanEdwards]

See, in my opinion that is really fucked up that you have to give warnings to someone breaking into your house to remain on the right side of the law.

I'd suggest what's fucked up is taking the word of someone on the internet as gospel when it comes to legality. I am absolutely no expert, but then who on the internet really is? if you google the question 'UK law on defence against home invader does a warning have to be given' you will get a different answer to the one our colleague suggested. YMMV of course but from the uk.gov. site:

Using reasonable force against intruders​

You can use reasonable force to protect yourself or others if a crime is taking place inside your home.

This means you can:

• protect yourself ‘in the heat of the moment’ - this includes using an object as a weapon
• stop an intruder running off - for example by tackling them to the ground

There’s no specific definition of ‘reasonable force’ - it depends on the circumstances. If you only did what you honestly thought was necessary at the time, this would provide strong evidence that you acted within the law. Read guidance from the Crown Prosecution Service.

You do not have to wait to be attacked before defending yourself in your home.
However, you could be prosecuted if, for example, you:

• carry on attacking the intruder even if you’re no longer in danger
• pre-plan a trap for someone - rather than involve the police

Do I have to wait to be attacked?No, not if you are in your own home and in fear for yourself or others. In those circumstances the law does not require you to wait to be attacked before using defensive force yourself



i can't see anything suggesting a warning is necessary or that there are cases where the above criteria were met, but a warning wasn't given, and the homeowner was prosecuted accordingly

there is a lot of emotive over-reaction in the UK that dates back to a couple of cases IIRC. there was a farmer who was burgled repeatedly, who ended up shooting burglars in the back as they ran away

this then got turned into 'you aren't even allowed to defend yourself' when really, mostly the people complaining just wanted to see burglars receive retributive justice in the form of them being shot to death.

I may have failed to remember another relevant case here but i don't think the warning is a legal requirement and can find nothing to substantiate it being so.

 

[IanEdwards]

Bottom line is that self defense is a fundamental human right.

btw regarding self-defence in the UK there was a pretty extreme case that was in the news relatively recently that is very relevant here

6 intruders broke into a guys home armed with crowbars etc (good old UK, they didn't have guns), reading between the lines my guess is they thought/knew the guy had drugs or drug money in the house and they were doing an Omar on him. or at least, trying to, or beating him for a drug debt, or whatever. I'd bet he is no citizen anyway.

anyway in the struggle having been beaten in front of his wife and kids (i think at least, they were certainly in the house), the guy ended up taking a knife and stabbing one of them, who ultimately died, the other 5 pussies ran off.

the guy (apparently) tried to save the life of the stabbed intruder and called the police

this guy was NOT charged

The funny thing about how self-defence is perceived in the UK, even in this story where the dude wasn't charged, you had people commenting on the story that they 'bet he was going to be charged, can't protect yourself, criminals paradise, your home should be your castle'.... even on a story that explicitly said the guy wasn't charged. i mention that to indicate the general levels of ignorance and emotional over-reaction, on this issue

anyway the 5 living scumbags ('criminals paradise can't protect your own home etc etc') got i think 70 years between them and the homeowner *despite likely having some kind of criminal reason that 6 dudes were raiding his house* was not charged.

absolutely no mention of warning/no warning in this case, because he didn't have to give one legally, nor did he have time to give one as he was fighting for his life, his life was under threat he used reasonable force in the context of that threat, no charges.

and still you see people commenting on the story that he would probably be charged 'because you can't even protect your own home'.

Like I say, there is a lot of misunderstanding and an over-perception of criminals rights vs rights of self-defence. generally in cases where the defender is charged the force is judged not to be reasonable but ask yourself, if under UK law a dude can stab another man to death and *not* be charged, does it sound like self-defence is illegal?

 

[USA!USA!]

Unreasonable force on a cleaning lady

I get being scared about someone coming into your home that shouldn't be there.. but there has to be a step before you start killing people

Mistakes happen - not everyone is evil.. most people are actually good

No problem with having your weapon out, but you don't need to kill in this case

 

[Scerpi]

Also through the door means failure to properly identify your target , failure to know what is beyond your target and someone being on your porch is not in and of itself a threat

We covered shooting through the front door at shit in my shooting classes and concluded that it's almost (almost)never the correct move and a great way to end up in prison.

Yes... Dude deserves prison time

No justification for what he did

 

[Scerpi]

btw regarding self-defence in the UK there was a pretty extreme case that was in the news relatively recently that is very relevant here

6 intruders broke into a guys home armed with crowbars etc (good old UK, they didn't have guns), reading between the lines my guess is they thought/knew the guy had drugs or drug money in the house and they were doing an Omar on him. or at least, trying to, or beating him for a drug debt, or whatever. I'd bet he is no citizen anyway.

anyway in the struggle having been beaten in front of his wife and kids (i think at least, they were certainly in the house), the guy ended up taking a knife and stabbing one of them, who ultimately died, the other 5 pussies ran off.

the guy (apparently) tried to save the life of the stabbed intruder and called the police

this guy was NOT charged

The funny thing about how self-defence is perceived in the UK, even in this story where the dude wasn't charged, you had people commenting on the story that they 'bet he was going to be charged, can't protect yourself, criminals paradise, your home should be your castle'.... even on a story that explicitly said the guy wasn't charged. i mention that to indicate the general levels of ignorance and emotional over-reaction, on this issue

anyway the 5 living scumbags ('criminals paradise can't protect your own home etc etc') got i think 70 years between them and the homeowner *despite likely having some kind of criminal reason that 6 dudes were raiding his house* was not charged.

absolutely no mention of warning/no warning in this case, because he didn't have to give one legally, nor did he have time to give one as he was fighting for his life, his life was under threat he used reasonable force in the context of that threat, no charges.

and still you see people commenting on the story that he would probably be charged 'because you can't even protect your own home'.

Like I say, there is a lot of misunderstanding and an over-perception of criminals rights vs rights of self-defence. generally in cases where the defender is charged the force is judged not to be reasonable but ask yourself, if under UK law a dude can stab another man to death and *not* be charged, does it sound like self-defence is illegal?

Disturbing... Home invasions are the stuff of nightmares. In the one place where you and your kids should feel safe.

Shattering that illusion would change your life for the worse.

When I first moved to Houston from Colorado, I was blown away about many home invasions were reported in the news. Fortunately I had moved to a suburb on the far edge of Harris County that has one of the lowest crime rates in the state. But it was fucking scary how many home invasions occur inside the loop in the actual city of Houston.

 

[KnightTemplar]

Slow Horses is fiction showing fictional situations. MI5 are an intelligence-gathering org not a hands-on org that throw down with terrorists and enemy spies or whatever, they have to jazz their role up for tv purposes i suppose because following what MI5 really do would be really, really dry. I haven't seen the show but if they are showing 'agents' in jeopardy-type situations on any kind of regular basis they are showing entirely fictional scenarios, the vast majority of people who work for MI5 are analyst geeks and the vast majority of work they do is behind a screen. If they were looking to apprehend a threat or go into a situation where firearms were necessary they would so do in the company of armed police. Thats just how UK LEO's/Intel agencies are organised.

Correct. MI5 and MI6 officers receive some firearms and unarmed combat training during their New Intelligence Briefing Officer Course at The Fort. But it's not an attempt to turn them into Bond, James Bond. It's to give a chance to protect themselves in the event that an operation goes south.

One veteran MI6 officer said that in the course of his twenty year career, he'd used the training only once: to defend himself when someone tried to mug him on the Tube.

MI5 work closely with Special Branch and CTSFO(Counter-Terrorism Specialised Firearms Officers). CTSFO are an elite police unit who regularly train with the SAS.

And speaking of which, there is also E Squadron SAS, who carry out the real James Bond shit - assassinations, sabotage, "car accidents in Paris" etc - on behalf of the Spooks.

One ex-MI5 officer said that he and his colleagues love the Bond movies and go see them as soon as a new one is released. From their perspective, the films are hilarious comedies.

 

[KnightTemplar]

See, in my opinion that is really fucked up that you have to give warnings to someone breaking into your house to remain on the right side of the law. I doubt I would get to my guns in time because they are all the way up in the attic and if I was downstairs, I doubt I am running up to get one. If I was already in the attic-which is where my man cave is, I probably wouldn’t hear someone breaking in to even know to get my gun. A couple years ago, my son ran up screaming that someone was trying to get in through the front door. I was in the bath tub and I jumped out of the tub naked without grabbing a towel and ran down the stairs to fuck someone up butt naked. There was no one there and we figured out it was the porch swing getting knocked into the other door from the wind-but I didn’t take the time to go grab a gun. But, if I did have my gun and someone broke in, I wouldn’t really have to worry about legality in my state-it’s a castle doctrine/stand your ground state with no duty to retreat-which in your own home, is how it should be. There are states where you have an obligation to run away before you are allowed to use force to defend yourself and to me, this is insane.

Bottom line is that self defense is a fundamental human right.

I have a machete and axe in my bedroom. A Fairburn-Sykes Commando Knife in the living room. A Cold Steel Assegai in the other bedroom. So I'll have a weapon of some kind in my hand in a matter of seconds after someone breaks in. And after twenty years of Kali/Silat, I know how to use them.

If the home invader tries to attack me, of course I'm not going to give him a warning. If he hesitates, I'll give him one chance to run away before things get wet. And I'll shout it loudly enough for witnesses to hear me.

Police in the UK are not friends to the law abiding majority, and the politicians are even worse. Yes, it's better to be tried by 15 than carried by 6, but I'm still going to game the system as much in my favour as possible.

 

[HenryFlower]

For your viewing pleasure, here’s a snippet of surviving edged weapons-the full length video is 1.5 hours and is from 1988.

if anyone is interested, & i like you, i would consider uploading the entire video to google drive

 

[Khaosan]

....

For your viewing pleasure, here’s a snippet of surviving edged weapons-the full length video is 1.5 hours and is from 1988.

lol @ the satanist fearmongering around 49 seconds.

 

[Crash Lance]

Holy fragaroli, this mofo is gonna get in trouble because he was spending time inside his own house.

What's next? A mofo is gonna get in trouble because he puts parmesan cheese on fries?

 

[Natural Order]

Enter another person's home uninvited and all bets are off. You come into my home without clear communication or showing any form of aggression or mental unstability and you're dead. Simple as that. This should arguably be Rule #1 on planet earth and all legal systems should support it.

I'll deal with the consequences of that decision later while I rest easy knowing the family is safe.

 

[nhbbear]

I don't always have a laptop in front of me and not always sitting at a place to read a wall of text.

Anyway, if it all means that much to you, I suggest you send some ky jelly and commisary money to your defrocked and humiliated comrades in arms, Chauvin definitely could have used a gun when he was shanked, send that boy a cake with a jig saw in it, and water boy could use some lube. Personally, I hope they both need colostomy bags for life if they make it out.

First, my original response wasn’t that long and you could have skimmed it, or ignored it for all I care. I use my education and experience to try to inform others in this room and even if you didn’t read it, maybe someone else did.

As for the rest of that….I can’t tell if you think you’re insulting me-and if you are in fact trying to insult me or get a rise out of me-boy, did you fucking miss the mark. I am more likely to send chauvin’s cellmate something sharp and pointy and I sure as fuck wouldn’t send him lube-I want that pounding to happen 100% dry with zero moisture. Eventually, blood can act like a lubricant. But and one thing you did say that made me chuckle because it something I often say is that when I see a story about some piece of shit that kills a cop and gets into a shootout-I always hope the bad guy gets shot in the gut and spine. Ideally, they would be paralyzed and have to shit in a bag their whole life.