Crime Stand your ground? No

[mozfonky]

That's sad. One thing is finding someone inside your home or apartment, but shooting people knocking at your door? That is so over the top.

Human beings are very territorial, just look at all the neighbors who sue each other or hate each other. Territoriality is on thing but we are very violent too. I suspect the case of the russian amazon flex driver being murdered was probably some territory issue, we do have to park in places we shouldn't, all the time, otherwise we can't do the job really. That's just a guess as they never caught the guy. I know the area and it's got some hood apt's up in there and I could see some guy parking all wonky and maybe not even being able to explain it to some hothead.

It's not justification, but these immigrants push the wrong buttons on the wrong people, I forgot to mention, we had a passenger driver killed while driving, so, that's about 4 in the last 3 years that I'm aware of. Anyway, that guy was Kenyan or something, and my guess would just be he did something wonky in traffic, doubt he said much to whoever killed him, immigrants from many of these places just aren't as mouthy as we are. Was a woman who yelled at me, "don't get shot!" I called her a crazy bitch, but I doubt immigrants would even know how to respond to that.

 

[Scerpi]

If you don't feel there is an immediate threat then why do you have your gun pulled to begin with? Also, if there's no immediate threat and you start firing off rounds, the person you're "warning" has reason to believe you are the threat. You just escalated a non threatening situation into a potential shoot out where you admitted there was no immediate threat.

Maybe if you're unsure of the other person's intentions you just ask them what they are doing. Let them know you're armed and then respond accordingly.

The only situation in which I'd give the homeowner a slight pass is if he had recent break in attempts. And still, he should be charged with manslaughter.

She hadn't entered his home and I don't think she was trying to bang down the door to get in either. Just being on someone's doorstep means they have bad intentions.

 

[ssBaldy]

Human beings are very territorial, just look at all the neighbors who sue each other or hate each other. Territoriality is on thing but we are very violent too. I suspect the case of the russian amazon flex driver being murdered was probably some territory issue, we do have to park in places we shouldn't, all the time, otherwise we can't do the job really. That's just a guess as they never caught the guy. I know the area and it's got some hood apt's up in there and I could see some guy parking all wonky and maybe not even being able to explain it to some hothead.

It's not justification, but these immigrants push the wrong buttons on the wrong people, I forgot to mention, we had a passenger driver killed while driving, so, that's about 4 in the last 3 years that I'm aware of. Anyway, that guy was Kenyan or something, and my guess would just be he did something wonky in traffic, doubt he said much to whoever killed him, immigrants from many of these places just aren't as mouthy as we are. Was a woman who yelled at me, "don't get shot!" I called her a crazy bitch, but I doubt immigrants would even know how to respond to that.

I get what you're saying, but shooting someone at one's door is psychotic behavior. If it wasn't, Jehovah's witnesses would've ceased to exist long time ago.

 

[KnightTemplar]

This wouldn't happen in the UK. We're not allowed firearms, so shooting through a door isn't an option.

There are some weapons it is legal to own, although not for the purpose of self-defence. Anyone breaking into my home is going to find themselves facing something rather sharp. If possible, I will give them a warning; not because I give a fuck about their life, but to make sure I keep myself in the right legally speaking.

If the home invader doesn't immediately leave, I'll go Full Voorhees. I'm not taking it for granted that someone who has broken into my home is only going to rob me.

 

[mozfonky]

I get what you're saying, but shooting someone at one's door is psychotic behavior. If it wasn't, Jehovah's witnesses would've ceased to exist long time ago.

yes it is, but that's our country, I doubt if all of those people doing that type of thing would strictly fit a Dsm for psychosis

 

[mozfonky]

This wouldn't happen in the UK. We're not allowed firearms, so shooting through a door isn't an option.

There are some weapons it is legal to own, although not for the purpose of self-defence. Anyone breaking into my home is going to find themselves facing something rather sharp. If possible, I will give them a warning; not because I give a fuck about their life, but to make sure I keep myself in the right legally speaking.

If the home invader doesn't immediately leave, I'll go Full Voorhees. I'm not taking it for granted that someone who has broken into my home is only going to rob me.

Britain has much less violent police too, they won't shoot people who threaten them with a blade, our cops will shoot people with knives in many cases and even that one recently with the boiling water. We are just too violent, and the cops always have some excuse, always say they had to kill someone by shooting them in center mass and can't use any other methods. Well, they do it in england.

I do know that not every case of a person pulling a knife get killed, we only hear about those cases but I've also seen an occasion where some guy was just going nuts and the officer commanded the guy to drop the knife, he did and he was tased immediately after dropping it, then he dropped.

 

[oldshadow]

While i agree in this case since the person with the gun is inside a home and you wouldn’t want to put holes in your house. But I have seen plenty of videos where warning shots outside are the correct call. A police officer is only going to shoot someone if they deem them an immediate threat that needs to be neutralized. At that point there is no point in aiming for legs, you aim to stop the threat period. A warning shot could be the right call in a situation where there is no immediate threat and you are unsure of what the intentions of the other person are. I wouldn’t compare those two things.

Not just you but anyone that thinks warring shots are a good idea at all. I just quoted I our post no insult intended.

Tell me what a warring shot accomplishs besides endangered other people. Do you think the person doesn't see the firearm or doesn't believe its real or they dont know how to operate the firearm.

First rule especially for a civilian (and I think law enforcement) never pull your firearm unless you intend to use it. The only thing that changes that is if the person changes their actions and intent. Its unless if you just mean it to "scare" someone but can't shoot someone. You can if the situation allows to verbally warn someone you are armed but that too is unless if you hesitate to use it when needed.

I rate warring shot with "just shoot the weapon out of their hand" or "just shoot them in the leg".

 

[oldshadow]

Britain has much less violent police too, they won't shoot people who threaten them with a blade, our cops will shoot people with knives in many cases and even that one recently with the boiling water. We are just too violent, and the cops always have some excuse, always say they had to kill someone by shooting them in center mass and can't use any other methods. Well, they do it in england.

I do know that not every case of a person pulling a knife get killed, we only hear about those cases but I've also seen an occasion where some guy was just going nuts and the officer commanded the guy to drop the knife, he did and he was tased immediately after dropping it, then he dropped.

Yea the police there run from people with knifes.

 

[llperez22]

If you don't feel there is an immediate threat then why do you have your gun pulled to begin with? Also, if there's no immediate threat and you start firing off rounds, the person you're "warning" has reason to believe you are the threat. You just escalated a non threatening situation into a potential shoot out where you admitted there was no immediate threat.

Maybe if you're unsure of the other person's intentions you just ask them what they are doing. Let them know you're armed and then respond accordingly.

Agree with everything you said. As I stated numerous times now, this was a situation that didn’t require shots fired of any kind, no need for warning shots or lethal shots.

 

[MichiganMMA1978]

As a gun owner, I cannot imagine a circumstance that would get me to fire through a closed, locked door, without any idea who is on the other side. That’s just plain ridiculous, irresponsible and asking for tragedy!
My heart goes out to the family of the victim.

Edit- one of the first things I was taught was once you pull that trigger, you can’t take it back. So make damn sure you know what you’re shooting at!

 

[ricc505]

Always be wary of anyone who seems to desire and defend legal means of getting away with killing people who clearly werent doing anything nefarious.

Cultures of fear and paranoia never lead anywhere constructive.

I'm always wary of people who jump on any story and use tragedy as means to take my rights! I didn't shot anyone and yet people will use this incident as a reason I shouldn't be entitled to own guns

 

[ThaiSexPills]

I believe it’s my God given right and civic duty to execute violent home intruders. That being said, stand your ground laws leave way, way too much grey area that people get murdered in. It’s scary stuff when you legalize murder for people who aren’t imposing a threat in your lives.

 

[usernamee]

How do we know the gun was fired with intent to kill? It's possible the shooter wanted to create a peephole in the door to get a better lock on what was going on

 

[Sinister]

I'm always wary of people who jump on any story and use tragedy as means to take my rights! I didn't shot anyone and yet people will use this incident as a reason I shouldn't be entitled to own guns

Good thing I never said that, then.

 

[DragRacer]

It’s also possible there was a big roach crawling across the inside of the door and the homeowner didn’t have any bug spray.

How do we know the gun was fired with intent to kill? It's possible the shooter wanted to create a peephole in the door to get a better lock on what was going on

 

[Spounman]

It's hard to not feel like because this woman spoke broken English and is Hispanic that no one cares, especially with all the ICE bullshit going on lately. If it was a Sydney Sweeny looking white woman that was randomly killed, the feds and Trump himself would be there.

OP has full blown TDS

 

[nhbbear]

This wouldn't happen in the UK. We're not allowed firearms, so shooting through a door isn't an option.

There are some weapons it is legal to own, although not for the purpose of self-defence. Anyone breaking into my home is going to find themselves facing something rather sharp. If possible, I will give them a warning; not because I give a fuck about their life, but to make sure I keep myself in the right legally speaking.

If the home invader doesn't immediately leave, I'll go Full Voorhees. I'm not taking it for granted that someone who has broken into my home is only going to rob me.

See, in my opinion that is really fucked up that you have to give warnings to someone breaking into your house to remain on the right side of the law. I doubt I would get to my guns in time because they are all the way up in the attic and if I was downstairs, I doubt I am running up to get one. If I was already in the attic-which is where my man cave is, I probably wouldn’t hear someone breaking in to even know to get my gun. A couple years ago, my son ran up screaming that someone was trying to get in through the front door. I was in the bath tub and I jumped out of the tub naked without grabbing a towel and ran down the stairs to fuck someone up butt naked. There was no one there and we figured out it was the porch swing getting knocked into the other door from the wind-but I didn’t take the time to go grab a gun. But, if I did have my gun and someone broke in, I wouldn’t really have to worry about legality in my state-it’s a castle doctrine/stand your ground state with no duty to retreat-which in your own home, is how it should be. There are states where you have an obligation to run away before you are allowed to use force to defend yourself and to me, this is insane.

Bottom line is that self defense is a fundamental human right.

 

[nhbbear]

Yea the police there run from people with knifes.

The IACP-international association of chiefs of police met in the UK back in 2014-2015 somewhere in that time frame and they specifically discussed knife wielding subjects. At this point, I had been teaching police defensive tactics, taser for about ten years and I also specialized in knife defense for probably about six years at that point. You’re very likely to get fucked up when you go hands on with someone with a knife.

I have done it on no less than three occasions-two worked out great, one I took some cuts. The first involved a guy swinging a machete at someone else and I tackled him from behind and the machete bounced back off the floor and cut his head and one of his dread locks off-which was pretty funny. The second time my partner and I were on our way back to hq to do a report on an armed bank robbery that we responded to. We actually saw the guy running from the scene and searched an abandoned house where we thought he was hiding, but he wasn’t in there. But our adrenaline was pumping during the search and it was waning at this point. We were driving and a physical domestic came out and we were right there, so we took it. We separated the parties-elderly father and his son. My partner gave me the visual signal to handcuff him and when I told him he was under arrest, he pulled out a knife and started screaming “shoot me!” He and I struggled over the knife and my muscles were shot from the adrenaline dump. It got hairy for just a moment but I was able to wrestle that arm to the ground and hold him until my partner got there to help. The third story, I have told a few times-but long story/short, I stopped a guy from slashing his own throat by grabbing his wrist and then we fought over the knife and I got cut.

Anyway, the iacp trained with UK police because they have shot so few people and they deal with knife wielding subjects as well. They tend to swarm the suspect using shields, pepper spray, tasers, and batons. They put out a 116 page document that I read, broke down, and regurgitated into a smaller document and disseminated it to my department. I also made a budget request for a lighter ballistic or riot shield and began searching for an extra long baton specie to deal with knives. My plan was to keep them in my assigned cruiser. I was denied my request-big surprise there. I was told we have ballistic shields at hq-but they’re locked in a safe and it takes time to get the key and get the shield-which you have to go back to hq to get in the first place. When I tried to argue my point, they still denied it, but said they would put a shield in the supervisor’s office if it would make me happy.

I have also railed against the so called “21 foot rule” for decades. It is based on a video called surviving edged weapons which was made in the early 90s and I had to watch during my first few weeks as a cop. The whole point of it is to show that someone with a knife can cover 21 feet of ground very quickly-so when facing a knife, have your gun out and be prepared to shoot if they are within 21 feet. Cops across the US took this as gospel and thought they were justified to shoot someone simply standing there holding a knife if they are writhing 21 feet and claim that’s how they were trained. Because of my position in the department as a supervisor for most of my career and as the defensive tactics lead trainer, I really pushed hard for new and old officers to learn how to deal with knives and really stressed that distance and cover are your friends.

Tasers are not appropriate uses of force for a knife unless a few things exist-lethal cover to shoot the person if the taser fails, cover that they can’t easily get over or around if the taser fails, or a height difference where you’re higher than they are and they would have to climb up to get you.its the same thing with pepper sprays and batons-only as a last resort if you have the time and distance to pull your firearm-you do so. Bottom line is that taser fail all the time, pepper spray doesn’t always work either-I have been sprayed many times and kept fighting, and batons mean that you are way too close to the knife and is definitely not ideal. I did once see another officer use his wooden billy club to smash a guy’s hand who was swinging a knife at someone during a bar fight. He absolutely shattered every bind in the guy’s hand and left him howling and screaming in a high pitched voice. His friends and others in the crowd started yelling that it was excessive force, but what do those retards know? And this officer was a complete duck-up and dumpster fire on every call he was on, but every once in a while, he would pull something like this out of his ass. Just to fuck with him, we voted him officer of the quarter for his actions that night.

For your viewing pleasure, here’s a snippet of surviving edged weapons-the full length video is 1.5 hours and is from 1988.

 

[nhbbear]

Britain has much less violent police too, they won't shoot people who threaten them with a blade, our cops will shoot people with knives in many cases and even that one recently with the boiling water. We are just too violent, and the cops always have some excuse, always say they had to kill someone by shooting them in center mass and can't use any other methods. Well, they do it in england.

I do know that not every case of a person pulling a knife get killed, we only hear about those cases but I've also seen an occasion where some guy was just going nuts and the officer commanded the guy to drop the knife, he did and he was tased immediately after dropping it, then he dropped.

You can see my post to old shadow for my extended thoughts, but I agree that the UK police do a very good job in most cases when dealing with knives using non lethal force.

However, it is my strong opinion that no police should ever in a situation where they need a gun and don’t have one because their country only allows criminals and a few cops to have the guns. I watch slow horses in Apple-really good show, anyway, it amazes me that their agents don’t have firearms or access to them and one agent has to buy a gun off the streets or at a shady pawn shop or something-it was several seasons ago.

And I am going to choose to 100% disagree with the notion that police or anyone else should be aiming anywhere but center mass of the target to so many reasons. First, if you’re justified in shooting someone, fucking shoot them-don’t take risks for yourself or others trying to hit a non vital body part. Second related to the first, if you justified in shooting someone-they have done something to make an officer believe that they are an immediate and dangerous threat to the officer and/kr another person-so you have to stop that threat as quickly as possible so you aim center mass where of the good stuff is located that are most likely to quickly stop the threat.

Third, police are trained to aim center mass because during a tense situation, your aim can be less true than it would be during a day at the range. You have adrenaline pumping, your sympathetic nervous system (fight, flight, freeze response) is activated, you have narrowing vision due to your pupil dilating, the dexterity in your hands and fingers is less than normal because all the blood is pulled to your core to protect your vital organs because SNS activation =threat, your heart is racing, your breathing gets rapid and shallow, and several other body changes such as PH changes in the blood chemistry that affects how you absorb oxygen and how your hormones travel in the blood-and did I mention your heart IS FUCKING RACING?

All these things happen within a second and you’re asking an officer to not aim at the biggest target they possibly have?

You want an officer to try and score a leg shot (thanks for reinforcing that shit, biden you fucking moron).

Maybe shoot the knife out of the suspects hand?

Oh boy-as I said, police aim for center mass for quick stopping power. They also aim at center mass because it a the biggest target. They don’t aim for legs for several reasons-chiefly, it doesn’t always stop the attacker. I have seen plenty of videos where people are shot multiple times center mass and they just keep coming. If the suspect has a gun and let’s say you shoot them in the leg and they go down-they can still pull the trigger. Two more quick points about leg shots and I am done. How about the suspect is running towards you or someone else-it would be hard at to hit them in the legs as they are running towards you with a knife-let alone, running away from you or worse, and inning across a field and you are trying to hit them as they cross in front of you. And finally, you don’t aim for the legs or arms because if you miss with that shot-that bullet isn’t coming back. When you miss, that bullet has to go somewhere. Sometimes, it s the ground. Sometimes, it hits a tree or you never find what it hits. But other times, you shoot and miss and you may hit a house, a car, someone in the background-maybe a child. This is especially true in the streets or a crowd nearby. You want your shots on target and you achieve that by making the shot as easy as possible under very stressful circumstances

 

[oldshadow]

The IACP-international association of chiefs of police met in the UK back in 2014-2015 somewhere in that time frame and they specifically discussed knife wielding subjects. At this point, I had been teaching police defensive tactics, taser for about ten years and I also specialized in knife defense for probably about six years at that point. You’re very likely to get fucked up when you go hands on with someone with a knife.

I have done it on no less than three occasions-two worked out great, one I took some cuts. The first involved a guy swinging a machete at someone else and I tackled him from behind and the machete bounced back off the floor and cut his head and one of his dread locks off-which was pretty funny. The second time my partner and I were on our way back to hq to do a report on an armed bank robbery that we responded to. We actually saw the guy running from the scene and searched an abandoned house where we thought he was hiding, but he wasn’t in there. But our adrenaline was pumping during the search and it was waning at this point. We were driving and a physical domestic came out and we were right there, so we took it. We separated the parties-elderly father and his son. My partner gave me the visual signal to handcuff him and when I told him he was under arrest, he pulled out a knife and started screaming “shoot me!” He and I struggled over the knife and my muscles were shot from the adrenaline dump. It got hairy for just a moment but I was able to wrestle that arm to the ground and hold him until my partner got there to help. The third story, I have told a few times-but long story/short, I stopped a guy from slashing his own throat by grabbing his wrist and then we fought over the knife and I got cut.

Anyway, the iacp trained with UK police because they have shot so few people and they deal with knife wielding subjects as well. They tend to swarm the suspect using shields, pepper spray, tasers, and batons. They put out a 116 page document that I read, broke down, and regurgitated into a smaller document and disseminated it to my department. I also made a budget request for a lighter ballistic or riot shield and began searching for an extra long baton specie to deal with knives. My plan was to keep them in my assigned cruiser. I was denied my request-big surprise there. I was told we have ballistic shields at hq-but they’re locked in a safe and it takes time to get the key and get the shield-which you have to go back to hq to get in the first place. When I tried to argue my point, they still denied it, but said they would put a shield in the supervisor’s office if it would make me happy.

I have also railed against the so called “21 foot rule” for decades. It is based on a video called surviving edged weapons which was made in the early 90s and I had to watch during my first few weeks as a cop. The whole point of it is to show that someone with a knife can cover 21 feet of ground very quickly-so when facing a knife, have your gun out and be prepared to shoot if they are within 21 feet. Cops across the US took this as gospel and thought they were justified to shoot someone simply standing there holding a knife if they are writhing 21 feet and claim that’s how they were trained. Because of my position in the department as a supervisor for most of my career and as the defensive tactics lead trainer, I really pushed hard for new and old officers to learn how to deal with knives and really stressed that distance and cover are your friends.

Tasers are not appropriate uses of force for a knife unless a few things exist-lethal cover to shoot the person if the taser fails, cover that they can’t easily get over or around if the taser fails, or a height difference where you’re higher than they are and they would have to climb up to get you.its the same thing with pepper sprays and batons-only as a last resort if you have the time and distance to pull your firearm-you do so. Bottom line is that taser fail all the time, pepper spray doesn’t always work either-I have been sprayed many times and kept fighting, and batons mean that you are way too close to the knife and is definitely not ideal. I did once see another officer use his wooden billy club to smash a guy’s hand who was swinging a knife at someone during a bar fight. He absolutely shattered every bind in the guy’s hand and left him howling and screaming in a high pitched voice. His friends and others in the crowd started yelling that it was excessive force, but what do those retards know? And this officer was a complete duck-up and dumpster fire on every call he was on, but every once in a while, he would pull something like this out of his ass. Just to fuck with him, we voted him officer of the quarter for his actions that night.

For your viewing pleasure, here’s a snippet of surviving edged weapons-the full length video is 1.5 hours and is from 1988.

Thanks that is interesting. Ive traind in various forms of knife martial arts over the years. I can say going against anyone trained with a knife unarmed is suicide no matter your skill. Ive proved it any number of times.

We used to have some fun in rolling by dropping a shock knife in the mix.