Squats: Are they REALLY necessary?

I am not attacking you. But he is right.



If you cant spare two hours a week to train with weights, then why are you doing anything with the time you have to train besides skill training?

Yeah I know you're not attacking me brother.

Hmmm....I don't remember saying I couldn't spare two hours a week to strength train. My discussion is more about prioritizing what attributes should be trained with a finite amount of weekly training time for a particular sport.
If I was a PL'er.....I'd probably spend the majority of my training time squatting/dl'ing and all the traditional stuff....and very little time doing cardio or roadwork. No doubt.

Would it be more efficient for a fighter to put more of that finite time/energy into developing max strength? I see it more as efficient training/prioritizing training attributes.

But good point. If you're devoting a certain amount of time to max strength anyway...then why not use the best max strength developers like the squat/DL etc.
 
Always hated squats, hurt my knees with them.

Still got strong legs from running and basketball.
 
Nothing is necessary in any program.

Squatting is a great exercise for a healthy athlete, but can be a really destructive one for athletes with certain conditions. This is true of any exercise.
 
Yeah I know you're not attacking me brother.

My discussion is more about prioritizing what attributes should be trained with a finite amount of weekly training time for a particular sport.

Would it be more efficient for a fighter to put more of that finite time/energy into developing max strength? I see it more as efficient training/prioritizing training attributes.

If you're a fighter you'd want to implement a decent strength and conditioning program in addition to your sport specific training. There are benefits from strength training aside from improving maximal strength. Better anaerobic capacity, improved lactate threshold, increased maximal speed, and a greater proportion of Type 2A muscle fibres (fast-oxidative ones).

Given that most fighters have a weight category to make or maintain, you'd be mad neglecting this aspect of training since it's the best training modality to maintain weight. Combine it with endurance training, and it's better yet at decreasing body fat than either training modality on their own.
 
He may be right or he may be wrong. But I have no interest in being attacked internetz tuff guy style for discussing a topic.

And again. I didn't say pistols were better than barbell squats. That wasn't my post.

Maybe I should emphasize a little more....from the pov of a boxer, or someone that does MMA, Muay Thai, what have you....are you better off trading in the benefits of heavy squatting and using that effort and energy for more conditioning/skills training during the week. What got me thinking about this was Ross Enamait's II 50 day program. No barbell squats. Occasional variations of pistols and stuff.

Ross is a pretty fit guy and I'll go out on a limb and guess he's pretty strong as well, however you'd like to define that.

Looking for different perspectives from guys that have tried it, that's all. And thanks to those of you who've given your input.

When I first read the title I thought, "Oh, what the fuck is this shit?" But as an avid squatter, even I thought your question was fair, and I was hoping for some more insightful replies than what was offered. To address what's in bold, I think as far as trade-off is concerned, you can reach a baseline of strength and maintain it relatively easily. If you're only squatting 185 with shitty form, I think the effort required to get to 315 with solid form is well worth it since it shouldn't be too difficult. I'm totally guessing there, but I personally felt much stronger going from ~225 with shitty form to ~365 with good form, and it wasn't that difficult. If you're having success and feel like you're explosive and strong enough from doing pistols, then stick with it. I can't say you're right or wrong. Everyone's different. I know I've spent a lot of effort to get fat and strong lately, and I'm certainly no longer what I'd consider athletic, so I think you quickly reach a point of diminishing returns with anything past a 1.5x bodyweight barbell squat when it comes to shit like basketball or boxing or MMA, but that's just my opinion/guess.
 
Thats a big reason I got away from PLing, I just had no interest in being fat but strong. I like being more athletic.
 
If you're a fighter you'd want to implement a decent strength and conditioning program in addition to your sport specific training. There are benefits from strength training aside from improving maximal strength. Better anaerobic capacity, improved lactate threshold, increased maximal speed, and a greater proportion of Type 2A muscle fibres (fast-oxidative ones).

Given that most fighters have a weight category to make or maintain, you'd be mad neglecting this aspect of training since it's the best training modality to maintain weight. Combine it with endurance training, and it's better yet at decreasing body fat than either training modality on their own.

I don't get from the TS that he's talking about getting rid of S&C. I think he's talking about tailoring his strength training to allow for more focus on mma or boxing or whatever.

I think he's getting at heavy frequent squatting = shittier mma/skills/conditioning sessions. Pistols/other = less fatigue & better ability to bring energy and focus to the ring/sport specific training. But maybe less maximum strength as a trade-off.
 
are you better off trading in the benefits of heavy squatting and using that effort and energy for more conditioning/skills training during the week.

In your case I absolutely think you should choose a Cluster that includes squats.

Here's why:

First - you stated you used to follow the TB Fighter program and then you switched to Gladiator for 9 weeks. It was during your 9 week gladiator phase you did pistols instead of squat. You also stated you were switching back to TB Fighter this week cuz you'll be back to training boxing on a more full time basis.

The template you're switching to (TB Fighter) is a TWO day a week program with a very reasonable progression & recovery pattern. In fact, you could choose a cluster with the whole shebang, squats/DL/Bench/pull-ups and still not have it take much of a toll on your boxing work. I've been doing TB Fighter for months, along with three 60-90 minute Muay Thai sessions a week. No issues whatsoever. Plenty of energy, and any fatigue from lifting doesn't carry over enough to have any effect on my MT sessions or any additional cardio I do.

BUT, if you're sticking with Gladiator template, that's 3 days a week of high volume lifting dude (5 x 5 right?). In that case, you just might be screwing yourself and you'll have the issues you're concerned with. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that template is even recommended for MMA or tactical types in the book.

IMHO, in your situation you'll get far more benefit squatting than doing pistols twice a week. Although I can see how the pistols would've worked well with Gladiator.
 
Thats a big reason I got away from PLing, I just had no interest in being fat but strong. I like being more athletic.

Not to derail the thread dude, but you've inspired me to start 100kb swings/day for 30 days. Started yesterday!
 
If you're a fighter you'd want to implement a decent strength and conditioning program in addition to your sport specific training. There are benefits from strength training aside from improving maximal strength. Better anaerobic capacity, improved lactate threshold, increased maximal speed, and a greater proportion of Type 2A muscle fibres (fast-oxidative ones).

Given that most fighters have a weight category to make or maintain, you'd be mad neglecting this aspect of training since it's the best training modality to maintain weight. Combine it with endurance training, and it's better yet at decreasing body fat than either training modality on their own.

^this is good.
fbd.jpg


If u don't like squats or they hurt, then don't do them. Sure they are a great exercise but are they absolutely necessary for combat sports? Probably not.


Whether u choose to squat or not, I'd still wouldn't neglect training ur legs.


I only do pause squats now. It helps me reduce the load but still get effective leg training in. Plus, I like them more than regular squats; which while I'm good at them, I dislike them considerably.
 
Last edited:
LOL at "powerlifting" making you fat. I forgot the part where squatting made you shove donuts down your gullet.

I am washing my hands of this whole thread.
 
Thats a big reason I got away from PLing, I just had no interest in being fat but strong. I like being more athletic.

I am 99% sure that you know better than that.

Limited weight class athletes are almost never fat.
 
I don't get from the TS that he's talking about getting rid of S&C. I think he's talking about tailoring his strength training to allow for more focus on mma or boxing or whatever.

I think he's getting at heavy frequent squatting = shittier mma/skills/conditioning sessions. Pistols/other = less fatigue & better ability to bring energy and focus to the ring/sport specific training. But maybe less maximum strength as a trade-off.

Neither, just that particular comment. If anyone wants to be a fighter they need a well rounded training program that includes good S&C. Pistol squats in place of back squats is not good S&C.
 
I am 99% sure that you know better than that.

Limited weight class athletes are almost never fat.

This. In fact, if you are a lower-weight-class athlete who is fat, then you are almost guaranteed to lose at the elite level. Someone who is 170 and 20% body fat is almost always going to get beaten by someone who is 170 and 8% body fat, ceteris paribus. In that example, the guy with 8% body fat is competing with more than 10 lbs of pure lean mass compared to the guy at 20%.
 
I am 99% sure that you know better than that.

Limited weight class athletes are almost never fat.

Yeah it was sort of a joke but when I was serious about PLing, I found that stuff like running, martial arts really hurt the lifting and also I ate a lot more, more than I should have probably lol. And like I said, I am more intersted in being good at martial arts, and some endurance type stuff.

I still like lifting heavy, Im just not living the PL life right now.
 
Last edited:
In answer to OP:

Short version. No, they are not necessary. But they are such an efficient and effective way to develop strength in some of the most fundamental movements in sports or indeed physical activity. So for many or most athletes they are probably going to be a significant component of training.

Longer version. Squats develop maximum strength in knee extension and hip extension- the two most important lower body movements. They also you to get better at staying under a crushing load and not being pulled forward by a heavy load. These movements and abilities just have so many useful applications. The squat is not the only way to train these movements- the deadlift, for example, trains the same movements and abilities. Lunges do, too. But the squat trains the movements over large ROM and allows you to go very heavy, which is a necessity for training maximum strength.

You wouldn't need to squat if you already have adequate strength in the movements I mentioned. You could get by without squatting if you had some strength and injury issues were preventing you from doing the needed squatting needed to develop your strength further.

There are other good lower body exercises. Deadlifts are also great. You are basically trading quite a bit less ROM for more weight and more stimulation of the trunk muscles. I think lunges are an under-rated exercise- good for correcting imbalances, good for helping to transfer strength to sports-specific movement. But squats are just the best all-round, general maximum strength developer.

People always say stuff like "I was doing X and then I switched to Y and I got better" or "it felt amazing", like that should be some kind of surprise, or as if it implies that Y is better than X. The reality is, when you are focusing on one thing you tend to be neglecting others. When you switch to others, you will tend to have a base in what you were doing before, and then you will gain very quickly in the new thing. And so for a while you will just be a better athlete. It's like a linear periodization in running training. You start off doing your aerobic base. Then after a few months you start adding speed work. And boom, your overall speed and running performance improves. No one says "Oh, speed work is obviously better than slow work, I'll never do slow work again". People understand that the total components of performance include aerobic and anaerobic, and when they switch from the base phase, they get a significant increase in performance because they now they are focusing on one of the other components. Also, reducing aerobic training can allow reduction of accumulated fatigue and an increase in performance.

If you are squatting for a sport, and you suddenly switch to lunges or pistols or something, you are likely to have the same experience. First, reduction in accumulated fatigue. Second, performance increases from switching to focus on qualities that are not trained as well through barbell squats, like balance or unilateral knee/hip extension. But the key point is that you got to your total performance level largely because of the squatting. It's probably not the case that you would have gotten there just by doing your unilateral work, or whatever. In the same way as the runner wouldn't have gotten to the same level just by doing speed work.

And that leads on to the final point... when you switch from one activity to a complementary one like this, everything is rosy for a while. That's because the properties you were training before take a while to de-train, while you are rapidly building up the new property. But eventually you may de-train. In the case of switching from barbell squats to pistols, or lunges or something, eventually max strength is likely to decline. Which is why in a proper block periodization you usually don't completely abandon the property you were focusing on before, but also do some "maintenance work". And barbell squats remain one of the best choices for that.
 
Eventually, most people get back pain no matter what they do.

<old man without back pain grins at the kids here>

:D

People get back pain from wrestling, jiujitsu, boxing, moving furniture, standing for long hours, of just from laying on the couch.

Proper squatting is one of those activities that can actually help strengthen your back.

There you go.
 
Back
Top