Squats: Are they REALLY necessary?

Yeah it was sort of a joke but when I was serious abour PLing, I found that stuff like running, martial arts really hurt the lifting and also ate a lot more, more than I should have probably lol. And like I said, I am more intersted in being good at martial arts, and some endurance type stuff.

I still like lifting heavy, Im just not living th ePL life right now.

That's sort of my own experience. Getting my lifts up and progressing continually required making lifting my whole focus, and eating a lot and being pretty fat. I am much happier now that I am leaner and have more balanced activities.
 
That's sort of my own experience. Getting my lifts up and progressing continually required making lifting my whole focus, and eating a lot and being pretty fat. I am much happier now that I am leaner and have more balanced activities.

Yeah, thats all I was really saying. Powerlifting is cool but I didnt want to focus on lifting just to lift. To each their own.
 
In answer to OP:

Short version. No, they are not necessary. But they are such an efficient and effective way to develop strength in some of the most fundamental movements in sports or indeed physical activity. So for many or most athletes they are probably going to be a significant component of training.

Longer version. Squats develop maximum strength in knee extension and hip extension- the two most important lower body movements. They also you to get better at staying under a crushing load and not being pulled forward by a heavy load. These movements and abilities just have so many useful applications. The squat is not the only way to train these movements- the deadlift, for example, trains the same movements and abilities. Lunges do, too. But the squat trains the movements over large ROM and allows you to go very heavy, which is a necessity for training maximum strength.

You wouldn't need to squat if you already have adequate strength in the movements I mentioned. You could get by without squatting if you had some strength and injury issues were preventing you from doing the needed squatting needed to develop your strength further.

There are other good lower body exercises. Deadlifts are also great. You are basically trading quite a bit less ROM for more weight and more stimulation of the trunk muscles. I think lunges are an under-rated exercise- good for correcting imbalances, good for helping to transfer strength to sports-specific movement. But squats are just the best all-round, general maximum strength developer.

People always say stuff like "I was doing X and then I switched to Y and I got better" or "it felt amazing", like that should be some kind of surprise, or as if it implies that Y is better than X. The reality is, when you are focusing on one thing you tend to be neglecting others. When you switch to others, you will tend to have a base in what you were doing before, and then you will gain very quickly in the new thing. And so for a while you will just be a better athlete. It's like a linear periodization in running training. You start off doing your aerobic base. Then after a few months you start adding speed work. And boom, your overall speed and running performance improves. No one says "Oh, speed work is obviously better than slow work, I'll never do slow work again". People understand that the total components of performance include aerobic and anaerobic, and when they switch from the base phase, they get a significant increase in performance because they now they are focusing on one of the other components. Also, reducing aerobic training can allow reduction of accumulated fatigue and an increase in performance.

If you are squatting for a sport, and you suddenly switch to lunges or pistols or something, you are likely to have the same experience. First, reduction in accumulated fatigue. Second, performance increases from switching to focus on qualities that are not trained as well through barbell squats, like balance or unilateral knee/hip extension. But the key point is that you got to your total performance level largely because of the squatting. It's probably not the case that you would have gotten there just by doing your unilateral work, or whatever. In the same way as the runner wouldn't have gotten to the same level just by doing speed work.

And that leads on to the final point... when you switch from one activity to a complementary one like this, everything is rosy for a while. That's because the properties you were training before take a while to de-train, while you are rapidly building up the new property. But eventually you may de-train. In the case of switching from barbell squats to pistols, or lunges or something, eventually max strength is likely to decline. Which is why in a proper block periodization you usually don't completely abandon the property you were focusing on before, but also do some "maintenance work". And barbell squats remain one of the best choices for that.

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You're on the right track.

For strength, a general squatting variation is necessary.

For 90% of beginners the squat should be advocated as it's the simplest to learn and easiest with which to track progress.

But front squats, KB squats, Bulgarian split squats or my particularly favorite, weighted single leg box squats will work provided you are still using them in a plan that take into account your goals and proper rep scheme etc.

Chowder Tubes!
 
You're high as giraffe pussy if you think pistols = squatting strength.

If you even entertain the idea I can't take you seriously.

This is coming from a guy that loves pistols and trains
people to do them in competition.

I could care less about how you "feel". People always spout some bullshit about the effectiveness of a program based on how they "feel". Don't care.

Oh suddenly you "feel" better? No shit you switched to something lower in intensity of course you feel better. Its easier.
Get out with that shit.

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As a wee lad I got more explosive just from playing basketball (sprinting and jumping for hours a day), so I can certainly see how someone would think their legs got stronger from this. I wouldn't have considered my legs "strong" back then, though.
 
So much good info here but if there is anything over rated in a gym is bench press, the rack is used for many crappy stuff that is insane haha, the squat get a nice hormonal impact but my english is not so good to explain it right...the thing is that you have to train legs, I have no acces to weights now but I sprint...
 
Just train upper body, your legs will respond to your upper body mass, like that Milo of Croton story. As your chest and arms get bigger, your legs will too, from having to carry around your swole ass upper body all the time.
 
Obviously the barbell squat is a high end great-bang-for-the-buck exercise. But, I think the general perception is that if you don't squat...your training is not optimal, or it's incomplete.

Depends on what you're goal is. If you want to get better at athletics I;d say you should have a squat or some variation of it.

But is this really the case...? I'm familiar with some programs (some of Pavel's stuff) that don't even include squats...and Pavel himself doesn't seem to hold the attitude that squats are mandatory...especially for more mobile tactical/type athletes. Ross Enamait's stuff doesn't include barbell squats either.

Probably because he believes the squat to be a very technical lift, like the clean and jerk. One you don't just go out and learn on your own, as he put it. Unless you're referring to a different Pavel then I am.

I just finished up a 9 week strength phase (Tactical Barbell: gladiator template) and didn't include barbell squats in my cluster. I went with a Pistol squats/ weighted pull-ups/bench cluster. Now I realize pistols are a form of squat, and I increased my pistols from 5 strict/leg to 18 in 9 weeks. But I didn't barbell squat once.

Great, you learned to pistol squat.

I've noticed no change in leg size or power....if anything my legs look more muscular and feel far sturdier, but of course that could probably just be a result of completing the 9week template with the pistols. I might've had that much better results with barbell squats who knows. I can't say it's affected my roadwork, one way or another vs barbell squats. If anything roadwork and conditioning sessions seem easier. One major positive....I do seem to have more energy overall during lifting sessions and weekly training. I guess pistols just aren't as draining as barbell squats.

This seems like you're trying to convince yourself that you don't have to squat.

One reason I ask is because I'm heading back to my boxing gym this week after a long time away. I'll be switching back to only lifting twice a week (TB:Fighter template - had excellent results with this last time). So I'm picking a new exercise cluster for the next 12 week strength phase....and wondering if I should include squats or not. I'll be spending a considerable amount of time doing cardio/conditioning/boxing drills, so any extra training energy during the week would be a major plus...as long as it's worth the trade-off of not squatting.

If you want to increase strength, I'd include a squat or a variation, fo sure.

Anyone here NOT squat regularly? How has it really affected your overall fitness level and strength? Did your legs wither away? Any pros/cons? I'm particularly interested to hear from anyone that boxes or does MMA. Obviously this isn't a permanent thing, whether I decide to include squats or not, I can always change exercise clusters at the end of the strength phase and go back to squatting. I thought this would be an interesting discussion/food for thought...as it seems to be accepted that you MUST barbell squat or your training is 'wrong'.

I don't think people will say its wrong, unless you specified your goal was to increase overall strength by just doing Pistol Squats. Squatting is a pretty significant movement.
 
I can't think of many sports where you wouldn't want/need to squat. All I can really come up with arm wrestling and possibly bouldering/climbing. I guess things like skateboarding and BMX riding I could see too.
 
I can't think of many sports where you wouldn't want/need to squat. All I can really come up with arm wrestling and possibly bouldering/climbing. I guess things like skateboarding and BMX riding I could see too.

You can find an exception to every sport and make a case for why you don't NEED to squat, but I think a baseline of strength, particularly in the squat, is absolutely beneficial. Even if you don't play sports, squatting will make you a better man. Even arm wrestling.. you watch that show on AMC about arm wrestlers and you see them using as much leverage as they possibly can. Sure looks like a lot of legs/core/back involved in that to me.
 
What a pathetic forum this has become.

I'll bet if I'd just entered some partial sentence fragment containing some bro-science my post would still be there.

This is why regulars don't help out new people like they used to. Piss off mods.
 
In your case I absolutely think you should choose a Cluster that includes squats.

Here's why:

First - you stated you used to follow the TB Fighter program and then you switched to Gladiator for 9 weeks. It was during your 9 week gladiator phase you did pistols instead of squat. You also stated you were switching back to TB Fighter this week cuz you'll be back to training boxing on a more full time basis.

The template you're switching to (TB Fighter) is a TWO day a week program with a very reasonable progression & recovery pattern. In fact, you could choose a cluster with the whole shebang, squats/DL/Bench/pull-ups and still not have it take much of a toll on your boxing work. I've been doing TB Fighter for months, along with three 60-90 minute Muay Thai sessions a week. No issues whatsoever. Plenty of energy, and any fatigue from lifting doesn't carry over enough to have any effect on my MT sessions or any additional cardio I do.

BUT, if you're sticking with Gladiator template, that's 3 days a week of high volume lifting dude (5 x 5 right?). In that case, you just might be screwing yourself and you'll have the issues you're concerned with. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that template is even recommended for MMA or tactical types in the book.

IMHO, in your situation you'll get far more benefit squatting than doing pistols twice a week. Although I can see how the pistols would've worked well with Gladiator.

Yeah excellent point...when I ran TBfighter with Ross's 50 day I didn't notice anything detrimental including the squats other than an expected reasonable level of fatigue. The only reason I tried gladiator was because I had a bit of free time to play with before starting up the boxing this month.....definitely would NOT choose gladiator normally.
 
What a pathetic forum this has become.

I'll bet if I'd just entered some partial sentence fragment containing some bro-science my post would still be there.

This is why regulars don't help out new people like they used to. Piss off mods.

We do need more moderator presence here. A lot of these questions can be answered in the FAQ's (that now include conditoning). And the threads like this one that sounds suspect and could be considered troll threads would be canned.

I'd find it very helpful to have more experienced posters in the main. Right now I rely on other forums for my questions.
 
In answer to OP:

And that leads on to the final point... when you switch from one activity to a complementary one like this, everything is rosy for a while. That's because the properties you were training before take a while to de-train, while you are rapidly building up the new property. But eventually you may de-train. In the case of switching from barbell squats to pistols, or lunges or something, eventually max strength is likely to decline. Which is why in a proper block periodization you usually don't completely abandon the property you were focusing on before, but also do some "maintenance work". And barbell squats remain one of the best choices for that.

Yeah man, good point. It brings to mind alternate approaches.....such as switching up....use a cluster containing squats for say 9-12 weeks, and then change up to pistols for 3-6 if needed. Along those lines.
 
But why would you NEED to do Pistols? Are you in a pistol comp?
 
Thanks for all the input from both 'sides'....lots of food for thought. I've decided to keep the squats in my cluster, as I'll be switching to a TB template that only has me lifting/max strength training twice a week anyway.

I'm a little surprised at one or two of the emotional butthurt reactions on whether to squat(!) or not for fucks sake...I don't think that balancing and prioritizing training is a crazy issue to discuss for combat sports. If I was on a PL'er forum and asked the same question.... that's a different story. And to emphasize again, I don't think pistols are better than squats. Squats are definitely superior for building max strength....no doubt...no argument here.

My original question had to do with whether dropping them and replacing them with a less demanding exercise would be worth it for a combat athlete. If it resulted in more energy and therefor more effort put into higher priority skills like conditioning, pad work, cardio, all that. Does a boxer or combat athlete need the same level of max strength as a PL'er or someone just training to lift as much weight as possible...? I could be wrong, but I don't think so. It would be interesting to know how many of the 'Squat no matter what' crowd trained in boxing, mma or other combat sports, vs the 'Not necessary' crowd.

Awesome discussion and points either way...and again, yes I'm going to keep squatting.
 
My original question had to do with whether dropping them and replacing them with a less demanding exercise would be worth it for a combat athlete. If it resulted in more energy and therefor more effort put into higher priority skills like conditioning, pad work, cardio, all that. Does a boxer or combat athlete need the same level of max strength as a PL'er or someone just training to lift as much weight as possible...? I could be wrong, but I don't think so. It would be interesting to know how many of the 'Squat no matter what' crowd trained in boxing, mma or other combat sports, vs the 'Not necessary' crowd.

Why replace it with anything except the higher priority skills anyways? That's what I am not grasping. What benefit are you getting out of replacing squats with bodyweight squats that outweighs just sparring or whatever you do more? Aren't you just going to get to the same point where in order to progress you need to up the intensity and volume, which is going to sap your energy from training again?

Your S&C program shouldn't be sapping your energy away from the important things: competing and training in your field. So obviously if squatting is preventing you from being able to train the way you need to, then it is intrusive and a bad program.
 
Thanks for all the input from both 'sides'....lots of food for thought. I've decided to keep the squats in my cluster, as I'll be switching to a TB template that only has me lifting/max strength training twice a week anyway.

Good idea

I'm a little surprised at one or two of the emotional butthurt reactions on whether to squat(!) or not for fucks sake...I don't think that balancing and prioritizing training is a crazy issue to discuss for combat sports. If I was on a PL'er forum and asked the same question.... that's a different story. And to emphasize again, I don't think pistols are better than squats. Squats are definitely superior for building max strength....no doubt...no argument here.

I apologize for sounding like a dick.
I think the issue isn't whether you think pistols are better than squats. It's that people become suspect when you (not you in the literal sense) question the efficacy of squats and try to compare them to less effective strength buidling exercises. They can benefit you regardless of your athletic endeavors. A lot of the power that fighters generate is from the hips, so why not use the an exercise that maximizes strength in this region.

My original question had to do with whether dropping them and replacing them with a less demanding exercise would be worth it for a combat athlete. If it resulted in more energy and therefor more effort put into higher priority skills like conditioning, pad work, cardio, all that. Does a boxer or combat athlete need the same level of max strength as a PL'er or someone just training to lift as much weight as possible...? I could be wrong, but I don't think so. It would be interesting to know how many of the 'Squat no matter what' crowd trained in boxing, mma or other combat sports, vs the 'Not necessary' crowd.

Squats are a fantastic exercise for building your awesomeness as an athlete, so why not have them? A properly programmed training regimen will help you deal with your issues related to your energy levels for technical practice.

Awesome discussion and points either way...and again, yes I'm going to keep squatting.

NICE!
 
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