Somebody please show me the receipts!

[nonoob]

I think Jones knows Francis is a problem. He is selecting very carefully his opponents, he's not risking his legacy. In other words, Jones is still the GOAT but he is talking shit.

"Selecting very carefully his opponents, not risking his legacy",
and your logic somehow tells you that Pico is GOAT?

Spoiler

Flawed AF Logic. GOAT fighters have huevos and take on ALL opponents.

 

[HoelHomero]

He made Wanderlei vs Chuck

A bit too late. Neither was champion anymore.

 

[Shilajit]

Gane didn't nullify Francis' boxing. Francis' bum knee did that.

all this other stuff you're talking about it doesn't mean anything. ALL of that was done in LHW. you keep using MMAth to provide answers but we all know that does not work. Joe Frazier was an extremely hard fight for Ali, but he couldn't do shit to George Foreman, then Ali beat Foreman. i'm sure nobody "could see" Ali beating Foreman much less knocking him out but it happened. the fact that you can't even visualize a fight where Ngannou lands a bomb and Jon folds is mind boggling. especially when the arguments you make don't even make sense. what DC did in his career IS FOR DC. it doesn't mean because DC did it automatically Jon can do it because he beat him.

as far as Francis being tentative, why would he? he wasn't tentative vs Stipe in the 2nd fight and he KNEW Stipe could take him down because Stipe had done it before. Jon can control the kicking distance AT LHW because he's got a massive length advantage. historically speaking Jon has NEVER fought a guy who has an 83in. reach before either. he couldn't control the kicking distance vs Gustafsson, and SURPRISE Gustafsson is one of the largest fighters Jon's ever faced. funny how that works huh? it's almost like being big MATTERS vs Jon.

Jon's hardest match ups are in the lower weight classes??? you mean vs SMALLER dudes he can exploit even MORE with his length and strength advantages? yeah i don't think so.

Historically speaking, both in kickboxing and MMA, when an opponent attacks with a diverse array of tools.

Punches, kicks, elbows. They control and dictate the kicking range in a way that makes it very difficult for someone with a boxing dominant attack to find success.

This is something we've seen throughout Jones career. He controls the kicking range In such a masterful way that his opponents simply can't hit him. When they do hit him, it's grazing.

His arm length is only part of it. It's his control of the kicking range. His boxing has never been strong, it's not as if he used that length offensively very well to begin with.

But what he does do exceptionally well is use his arms to frame control and create space in a way that makes it very hard to hit him. Controls wrists, manipulates the arms and shoulders of his opponent.

A bad knee will effect grappling, but you can still box. Ngannou had issues for the reasons I listed above, not his knee.

Jones is similar in that he utilizes a creative array of weapons both offensively and defensively on the feet. Even more so than Gane. Which again, makes it very difficult for a one dimensional boxer who throws predictable combinations to bypass the kicking range and land cleanly.

It's not MMA math. Jones is the best defensive fighter in the sports history. It doesn't matter who he fights, this will always be the core foundation to his style.

Ngannou could certainly catch Jon. I don't think anyone disputes he had a punchers chance. But so did rampage, so did Gus, so did DC, so did Belfort, so did Anthony Johnson. So did Rashad. Hard to knock someone out when you can't actually hit them and when you do, it grazes or they roll with the shit.

A punchers chance isn't something I'm going to bet on against arguably the greatest defensive fighter in the sports history who is a master at controlling distance.

And that isn't even mentioning the wrestling. All it takes is a single timed shot off an overextension and he's on the ground.

That was a hard fight everywhere it goes for Ngannou.

Again, I think DC was the hardest opponent for Jon at either LHW or HW.

When Jon fought Gus the first time, he hadn't yet encapsulated that aspect of his style. His kicks were good, but he wasn't using them in the same way to control the range in the way he did as his career developed.

Reyes actually said in an interview before he fought Jones that he needed to have as much success as Santos did with the kicks otherwise he had no chance.

Which speaks volumes to just how crucial a factor Jones dominating the kicking range is in his fights.

Even then, Reyes maybe hit him cleanly half a dozen times throughout all 5 rounds if that.

At LHW, fighters are much more well rounded. They're faster, younger, more diverse striking arsenal, better wrestling, better takedown defence, better scrambling ability, younger, faster reflexes.

At this stage of his career, 15 years in, I think Jones is at a point where some of those elements will begin to present problems.


Heavyweights are older, slower, more one dimensional. Less wrestling and scrambling ability. Not as technical. They're just more limited fighters as a whole. They have power but with far more holes.

Someone like Jones can dictate where the fight takes place at HW and expose the many holes that exist there.

It seems like an oxymoron. I think a lot of people still have the idea that Jones Had some issues at LHW, imagine what heavyweights would do to him. Which is no better than MMA math and simply isn't how things work. Heavyweights are nowhere near as good as people seem to think.

 

[Shilajit]

Oh here he is back from his bathroom break.

Having nothing intelligent to contribute to the discussion is no better than conceding defeat

 

[StonedLemur]

Wouldn't it be amazing if @Drunken Meat Fist was also all the people that get banned all the time? The same person deleting themselves, like Sherdog inception.

That would be awesome sir lol.

 

[AmonTobin]

Having nothing intelligent to contribute to the discussion is no better than conceding defeat

Your arguments, being the house of cards that they were, have been squashed by a number of people already. You just don’t know when to take an L graciously.

 

[Shilajit]

Gane didn't nullify Francis' boxing. Francis' bum knee did that.

all this other stuff you're talking about it doesn't mean anything. ALL of that was done in LHW. you keep using MMAth to provide answers but we all know that does not work. Joe Frazier was an extremely hard fight for Ali, but he couldn't do shit to George Foreman, then Ali beat Foreman. i'm sure nobody "could see" Ali beating Foreman much less knocking him out but it happened. the fact that you can't even visualize a fight where Ngannou lands a bomb and Jon folds is mind boggling. especially when the arguments you make don't even make sense. what DC did in his career IS FOR DC. it doesn't mean because DC did it automatically Jon can do it because he beat him.

as far as Francis being tentative, why would he? he wasn't tentative vs Stipe in the 2nd fight and he KNEW Stipe could take him down because Stipe had done it before. Jon can control the kicking distance AT LHW because he's got a massive length advantage. historically speaking Jon has NEVER fought a guy who has an 83in. reach before either. he couldn't control the kicking distance vs Gustafsson, and SURPRISE Gustafsson is one of the largest fighters Jon's ever faced. funny how that works huh? it's almost like being big MATTERS vs Jon.

Jon's hardest match ups are in the lower weight classes??? you mean vs SMALLER dudes he can exploit even MORE with his length and strength advantages? yeah i don't think so.

I'm also going to suggest that people go back and watch the first Gus fight with the sound off a few times..

I think most people would be surprised how little Jones was actually hit, even back then.

Almost everything Gus threw grazed him. These are also the shots that cause the most visible damage to the face. So people assume Gus beat the shit out of him.

But when you actually go back and watch some of these fights, it's incredible how little he actually gets hit with anything meaningful.

MMA fans don't care about defense though unfortunately.

They don't factor it into their analyze in the way an old school boxing fan or fighter would.

 

[Shilajit]

Your arguments, being the house of cards that they were, have been squashed by a number of people already. You just don’t know when to take an L graciously.

There isn't a single point I've made here that you've refuted

Show me the evidence.

I asked you in a prior post as well and you just ignored it.

If youre going to claim what I said has been refuted, then prove it.

Because they haven't. You haven't given a reasonable explanation to anything.

 

[AmonTobin]

I'm also going to suggest that people go back and watch the first Gus fight with the sound off a few times..

I think most people would be surprised how little Jones was actually hit, even back then.

Almost everything Gus threw grazed him. These are also the shots that cause the most visible damage to the face. So people assume Gus beat the shit out of him.

But when you actually go back and watch some of these fights, it's incredible how little he actually gets hit with anything meaningful.

MMA fans don't care about defense though unfortunately.

They don't factor it into their analyze in the way an old school boxing fan or fighter would.

He’s had a phenomenal LHW career. Unfortunately even a goat like Jon had a moment of cowardice. I understand this is difficult for you. It’s tough when our favourite fighters let us down.

 

[AmonTobin]

There isn't a single point I've made here that you've refuted

Show me the evidence.

I asked you in a prior post as well and you just ignored it.

If youre going to claim what I said has been refuted, then prove it.

Because they haven't. You haven't given a reasonable explanation to anything.

We sure did. It was all explained to you yesterday. You’ve decided to ignore it.

 

[Shilajit]

Your arguments, being the house of cards that they were, have been squashed by a number of people already. You just don’t know when to take an L graciously.

Your arguments, being the house of cards that they were, have been squashed by a number of people already. You just don’t know when to take an L graciously.

Chael is a liar. Dana is a liar. Jones is a liar. The MMA media are lying too. Even Ngannou is lying.

Right?

You're just living in a delusional, cherry picked reality where you only acknowledge things that validate your biased takes. Because you obviously have a hate boner for the guy.

I've actually backed up what I've said with circumstantial evidence.

Where's the proof for your assumptions? Jones is a pussy and coward who dodged Ngannou to fight Gane and take the easier fight and would never fight Ngannou.

Where's the evidence for everything you've said, other than your own belief?

 

[XociDe]

lol @ Ngannou being "a problem" for Jon after we all saw the Gane fight

Jon ducks the first spazzy haymaker that Ngannou throws and subs him in the first

Or elbows his head into the mat

 

[AmonTobin]

Chael is a liar. Dana is a liar. Jones is a liar. The MMA media are lying too. Even Ngannou is lying.

Right?

You're just living in a delusional, cherry picked reality where you only acknowledge things that validate your biased takes. Because you obviously have a hate boner for the guy.

I've actually backed up what I've said with circumstantial evidence.

Where's the proof for your assumptions? Jones is a pussy and coward who dodged Ngannou to fight Gane and take the easier fight and would never fight Ngannou.

Where's the evidence for everything you've said, other than your own belief?

Your words not mine.

 

[AmonTobin]

We’ve been over this many times. I don’t hate Jones at all. I’m completely comfortable being a fan of his work but also acknowledging that he didn’t want to fight Ngannou. The general concensus is that even if the UFC let Ngannou box and they improved fighter conditions as he requested, Jones was asking for impossible sums of money to have to fight Ngannou. Sums the UFC would never pay. It was an intelligent tactic on Jones’ part to ensure he never had to fight him no matter what resolution Ngannou and UFC came to.

 

[Shilajit]

We sure did. It was all explained to you yesterday. You’ve decided to ignore it.

That was only one point and it was about the contracts

But let's revisit. Because phil, or wherever his name was never actually responded to my rebuttal.

And he admits himself that he isn't a legal expert and doesn't know for certain that this is how things are.

His last response was that it doesn't matter if the Jones fight was offered as a bargaining chip in order to get him to sign a 3 fight deal and stay with the organization.

But he never offered any actual response as to why.

As I stated, using his own legal documentation that he posted that hypothetically, if Ngannou did sign under false pretenses and then Jones didn't end up signing, it would effectively make Ngannou's 3 fight deal null and void.

Which would allow him to pursue legal action in order to be removed from the contract, seek financial restitution or whatever the case may be.

If they were negotiating for a single fight and formulated a contract on a contingency, which ended up falling through, then it would be a different story.

In that context, what he said was valid.

But the implications here are bigger, because the Jones fight is the biggest sticking factor for signing Ngannou to a deal and ultimately keeping him with the organization.

So the question is, do you think the UFC would allow such an event to occur which would make them liable to legal action in the form of contract release and financial damages?

This is where the discussion left off.

And he left me on read.

 

[AmonTobin]

That was only one point and it was about the contracts

But let's revisit. Because phil, or wherever his name was never actually responded to my rebuttal.

And he admits himself that he isn't a legal expert and doesn't know for certain that this is how things are.

His last response was that it doesn't matter if the Jones fight was offered as a bargaining chip in order to get him to sign a 3 fight deal and stay with the organization.

But he never offered any actual response as to why.

As I stated, using his own legal documentation that he posted that hypothetically, if Ngannou did sign under false pretenses and then Jones didn't end up signing, it would effectively make Ngannou's 3 fight deal null and void.

Which would allow him to pursue legal action in order to be removed from the contract, seek financial restitution or whatever the case may be.

If they were negotiating for a single fight and formulated a contract on a contingency, which ended up falling through, then it would be a different story.

In that context, what he said was valid.

But the implications here are bigger, because the Jones fight is the biggest sticking factor for signing Ngannou to a deal and ultimately keeping him with the organization.

So the question is, do you think the UFC would allow such an event to occur which would make them liable to legal action in the form of contract release and financial damages?

This is where the discussion left off.

And he left me on read.

More walls of text. You just don’t know when to quit. You failed to prove that Ngannou ran from Jon and that Jon wanted to fight him. In all these novels you’ve written, not one shred of proof to back up your claims. By all means, continue your empty debate ad nauseam.

 

[Shilajit]

We’ve been over this many times. I don’t hate Jones at all. I’m completely comfortable being a fan of his work but also acknowledging that he didn’t want to fight Ngannou. The general concensus is that even if the UFC let Ngannou box and they improved fighter conditions as he requested, Jones was asking for impossible sums of money to have to fight Ngannou. Sums the UFC would never pay. It was an intelligent tactic on Jones’ part to ensure he never had to fight him no matter what resolution Ngannou and UFC came to.

This is just assumption on your end.

And a big, stupid one at that.

Jones called out Ngannou to begin with back in 2021. But under the condition that they were paid in accordance with the super fight that it was.

Dana said he was asking for 30 million publicly. Jones refuted it on Twitter and asked where he heard that number from and that it wasn't true.

He followed up with a statement made to hunter Campbell which states that 8-10 million wouldn't be enough for a fight of this magnitude and that he was looking to meet in the middle.

8-10 million is closer to what he was already being paid, considering DC got 5-6 mil for his second fight with Jones. So, it's fairly reasonable to push for a bigger bag when you're moving up in weight, challenging for a new belt in what is essentially a super fight.

The media continually asked questions throughout this time period and Dana made it clear that they were still working it out with Jones.

Fast forward to mid 2022 to the 4th quarter of 2022. The energy of the community has shifted. All of a sudden Chael does a podcast saying Jones is back and the UFC is looking to book him against Ngannou in December, but they're waiting to see what Ngannou does.

A statement and podcast which essentially suggests Jones has come to an agreement with the UFC.

Fast forward a few months later in December 2022, the UFC appears to have notified several mainstream media outlets and journalists that they're looking to book a comeback fight for Jones on March 4th. Said media outlets also made it clear that Ngannou was still deeply entrenched in negotiations with the UFC and they weren't sure who Jones would fight.

Every indication suggests that Jones finally worked it out with the UFC, they gave into his demands and he got a sizeable pay bump.

When discussing his deal, Jones also said they hes very happy and finally feels appreciated by the organization and that his value is recognized.


Your take away from this is that he somehow took substantially less money to fight Gane.


I think you're so invested in this idea that you're ignoring any evidence to the contrary.

 

[Shilajit]

More walls of text. You just don’t know when to quit. You failed to prove that Ngannou ran from Jon and that Jon wanted to fight him. In all these novels you’ve written, not one shred of proof to back up your claims. By all means, continue your empty debate ad nauseam.

But you said that my points were disproven.

That wall of text was simply an acknowledgement that they were not.

That was where the discussion left off yesterday.

And he never responded.

We're talking about legal matters and the politics of an elite, multi billion dollar organization. So these specifics matter.

Thus far, you haven't actually given any real intelligent response to anything that's been said here.

So to suggest that my points have been proven wrong, especially when you're refusing to back up your claims is nonsense.

 

[AmonTobin]

This is just assumption on your end.

And a big, stupid one at that.

Jones called out Ngannou to begin with back in 2021. But under the condition that they were paid in accordance with the super fight that it was.

Dana said he was asking for 30 million publicly. Jones refuted it on Twitter and asked where he heard that number from and that it wasn't true.

He followed up with a statement made to hunter Campbell which states that 8-10 million wouldn't be enough for a fight of this magnitude and that he was looking to meet in the middle.

8-10 million is closer to what he was already being paid, considering DC got 5-6 mil for his second fight with Jones. So, it's fairly reasonable to push for a bigger bag when you're moving up in weight, challenging for a new belt in what is essentially a super fight.

The media continually asked questions throughout this time period and Dana made it clear that they were still working it out with Jones.

Fast forward to mid 2022 to the 4th quarter of 2022. The energy of the community has shifted. All of a sudden Chael does a podcast saying Jones is back and the UFC is looking to book him against Ngannou in December, but they're waiting to see what Ngannou does.

A statement and podcast which essentially suggests Jones has come to an agreement with the UFC.

Fast forward a few months later in December 2022, the UFC appears to have notified several mainstream media outlets and journalists that they're looking to book a comeback fight for Jones on March 4th. Said media outlets also made it clear that Ngannou was still deeply entrenched in negotiations with the UFC and they weren't sure who Jones would fight.

Every indication suggests that Jones finally worked it out with the UFC, they gave into his demands and he got a sizeable pay bump.

When discussing his deal, Jones also said they hes very happy and finally feels appreciated by the organization and that his value is recognized.


Your take away from this is that he somehow took substantially less money to fight Gane.


I think you're so invested in this idea that you're ignoring any evidence to the contrary.

You’re cutting and pasting the same things we identified as being entirely conjecture yesterday.

 

[Shilajit]

You’re cutting and pasting the same things we identified as being entirely conjecture yesterday.

Actually this is a timeline of everything that happened in regards to negotiations and money claims.

With actual evidence and dates.