Shoulder position

[ronin0352]

I think youre misunderstanding...... this isnt a thread about HOW I DEADLIFT.

This is a thread geared towards a general debate on the subject.....

Quite clearly the world of lifting is not in agreement....

And you missed my point. Gravity will take the bar where it needs to be. As was already stated, it will take a great deal of effort to hold the bar anywhere else, even with sub-maximal weight regardless of who it is. I could hold 225 in a different position than where it naturally hangs, though it would be with effort. I sure as hell couldn't do it (and can't think of any reason to even try) with 585.

 

[XTrainer]

Hey honeybuns calm the fuck down....

I am merely quoting what a highly respected coach has said..... for the last time I am not stating my own opinion. That Tate and Rip seem to disagree is from my perspective interesting....

I am showing that there are differences in opinion on this important topic and encouraging debate amongst the forum....... simple enough for you?

Tate and Rip do not disagree, there is no debate, and you're begging for dubs if you don't chill out.

Let me explain it to you this way: You could deadlift with the bar somewhere other than under the scapulae, just like you could lock a bench press out over your waist, with your arms at a 45 degree angle, if the weight was light enough. Sounds ridiculous, but it's fundamentally the same thing.

 

[joshetc]

Guys, lets go do muscleups and get jakt instead of fighting.

 

[DevilMMA]

Christ, you're fucking retarded.

Read this.

Hardly..... in fact this proves my point exactly and makes you look foolish to say the least!!

The fact that Rip had to construct this answer and clarify if further via conversations with Tate means that there is on the surface contradictory advice out there, that others have noticed.

Which if Im not mistaken was the entire point of the thread.

Thanks!!!!!

 

[MatterOverMind]

I look foolish?

XTrainer gave you the answer, Ronin, Joshetc, and I all explained further, and you still couldn't get it through your head.

Just because you're not the only who lacks a basic understanding of physics and biomechanics, doesn't make you any less of a dipshit.

 

[Origins]

Glenn Pendlay here seems to think otherwise in regards to the starting position of a clean:

rippetoe power clean vs olympic power clean - Page 3 - CrossFit Discussion Board

 

[XTrainer]

Glenn Pendlay here seems to think otherwise in regards to the starting position of a clean:

rippetoe power clean vs olympic power clean - Page 3 - CrossFit Discussion Board

Guys will start in all sorts of different positions for deadlifts, and especially cleans. The point is, when the bar leaves the ground, it will be under the scapulae. Go find a video of a lifter cleaning or deadlifting. which shows anything to the contrary. I dare you! :icon_chee You will not.

If it makes you feel better to start behind the bar in a deep squat, or leaning over the bar, knock yourself out. You may very well lift better that way if it feels more comfortable. But it is not a mechanically advantageous position because the bar will still actually leave the floor beneath your scapulae. In other words, no matter how you position yourself relative to the bar to start with, you're not going to really lift anything until and unless the bar is beneath the scapulae.

I don't think I can explain this any more different ways.

 

[Origins]

Guys will start in all sorts of different positions for deadlifts, and especially cleans. The point is, when the bar leaves the ground, it will be under the scapulae. Go find a video of a lifter cleaning or deadlifting. which shows anything to the contrary. I dare you! :icon_chee You will not.

If it makes you feel better to start behind the bar in a deep squat, or leaning over the bar, knock yourself out. You may very well lift better that way if it feels more comfortable. But it is not a mechanically advantageous position because the bar will still actually leave the floor beneath your scapulae. In other words, no matter how you position yourself relative to the bar to start with, you're not going to really lift anything until and unless the bar is beneath the scapulae.

I don't think I can explain this any more different ways.

I'm not disagreeing with you.

 

[DevilMMA]

I look foolish?

XTrainer gave you the answer, Ronin, Joshetc, and I all explained further, and you still couldn't get it through your head.

Just because you're not the only who lacks a basic understanding of physics and biomechanics, doesn't make you any less of a dipshit.

For the those like you with a feeble mind...

a) The purpose of this thread was to encourage debate

b) As has been proved conclusively the likes of Rippetoe. Pendlay and Tate (and others) have opinions on DL and PC which on the surface or on a deeper level are not wholly in agreement with each other. This highlights perfectly the concept of the thread.

c) Them >>>>>>> You

d) Comprende senor??

 

[joshetc]

I think I outlined it semi- decently. "keep your shoulders behind the bar" is a cue that keeps you from falling forward when you are pulling. If your start position is anywhere other than your arms perpendicular to the floor, they will become perpendicular the moment the plates attempt to leave the plane of the floor. It is impossible for your arms to not be perpendicular to the floor with anything near maximal weights.

 

[DevilMMA]

I think I outlined it semi- decently. "keep your shoulders behind the bar" is a cue that keeps you from falling forward when you are pulling. If your start position is anywhere other than your arms perpendicular to the floor, they will become perpendicular the moment the plates attempt to leave the plane of the floor. It is impossible for your arms to not be perpendicular to the floor with anything near maximal weights.

I say again..... I am not disagreeing with any of your opinions since I never stated my own on the subject!!!

The whole point of thread was to highlight apparent differences in opinion on the starting position for DL and PC..... and to encourage debate.

The apparent contradiction between Tate and Rip on the DL start has been demonstrated but clarified but there does still leave the issue of the PC.

Pendlay and Rip do seem to definitely disagree on the shoulder position as highlighted in a previous post.

Personally Im with Glenn on that one, the start position for the DL and the OL ARE NOT THE SAME!!!

 

[MatterOverMind]

For the those like you with a feeble mind...

a) The purpose of this thread was to encourage debate
As far as shoulder position while deadlifting, there is no debate to be had.
b) As has been proved conclusively the likes of Rippetoe. Pendlay and Tate (and others) have opinions on DL and PC which on the surface or on a deeper level are not wholly in agreement with each other. This highlights perfectly the concept of the thread.
As far as deadlifts goes, everybody is in agreement. We haven't yet discussed power cleans.
c) Them >>>>>>> You
True, but I'm not disagreeing with them. So what's your point?
d) Comprende senor??
Absolutely. I never had a moment of confusion.

As far as positioning for Oly lifts, I believe there is some debate. I rarely do them, so I don't know much on the matter, and will leave that to people who are better educated on the subject.

 

[DevilMMA]

As far as positioning for Oly lifts, I believe there is some debate. I rarely do them, so I don't know much on the matter, and will leave that to people who are better educated on the subject.

Sorry..... as I have conclusively proved there was diagreement...... as shown via the Tate and Rip videos. The fact that Rippetoe himself had to talk to Tate in order to clarify his position merely proves my point..... the fact that it turns out that Tates video used misleading terminology is irrelevant. Contradictory messages was out there..... Tates video was very misleading...... he is in the business of educating people and spreading the word.

Contradictory advice was out there (and technically still is) if it wasnt for someone like myself querrying this to Rippetoe there would be still no clarification on the point.

 

[joshetc]

Sorry..... as I have conclusively proved there was diagreement...... as shown via the Tate and Rip videos. The fact that Rippetoe himself had to talk to Tate in order to clarify his position merely proves my point..... the fact that it turns out that Tates video used misleading terminology is irrelevant. Contradictory messages was out there..... Tates video was very misleading...... he is in the business of educating people and spreading the word.

Contradictory advice was out there (and technically still is) if it wasnt for someone like myself querrying this to Rippetoe there would be still no clarification on the point.

No, all you have proven is that rip was confused as you were before discussion with tate.

 

[millasur]

As far as positioning for Oly lifts, I believe there is some debate. I rarely do them, so I don't know much on the matter, and will leave that to people who are better educated on the subject.

So, set up for power cleans?

(I just started doing them seriously, hence the interest). I find I toe out a bit more than when deadlifting, umm, but I set up pretty much the same, whether that is correct or not.)