Should you win points when you don't hurt your opponent?

I don't mind grappling if you're trying to advanced position and hurt your opponent , but this guy was content just to hold on for the whole fight ... and at one point he had sean on the cage and was kissing his shoulders

<{danayeah}>
 
"Damage" isn't the only criteria.

I don't even think damage is an actual criteria.
 
In the absence of anything significant from the other guy, you have to give it to the guy thats controlling the fight. If Sean while on bottom had been bouncing elbows off Merabs head and putting him in danger with sub attempts, and going for broke more on the feet, he would have won, but he got shut down and fought timid.
 
"Damage" isn't the only criteria.

I don't even think damage is an actual criteria.
"Effective Striking/Grappling shall be considered the first priority of round assessments. Effective Aggressiveness is a ‘Plan B’ and should not be considered unless the judge does not see ANY advantage in the Effective Striking/Grappling realm. Cage/Ring Control (‘Plan C’) should only be needed when ALL other criteria are 100% even for both competitors. This will be an extremely rare occurrence.

PRIORITIZED CRITERIA:

Effective Striking/Grappling

Legal blows that have immediate or cumulative impact with the potential to contribute towards the end of the match with the IMMEDIATE weighing in more heavily than the cumulative impact. Successful execution of takedowns, submission attempts, reversals and the achievement of advantageous positions that produce immediate or cumulative impact with the potential to contribute to the end of the match, with the IMMEDIATE weighing more heavily than the cumulative impact.” It shall be noted that a successful takedown is not merely a changing of position, but the establishment of an attack from the use of the takedown. Top and bottom position fighters are assessed more on the impactful/effective result of their actions, more so than their position. This criterion will be the deciding factor in a high majority of decisions when scoring a round. The next two criteria must be treated as a backup and used ONLY when Effective Striking/Grappling is 100% equal for the round."

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From


So they use the word impact when referring to both grappling and striking, and they emphasize that this "impact" is toward ending the match. It pretty clearly seems to be emphasizing that only anything that will contribute to "end" the match counts, and by that I would assume they mean a finish... The only other thing is "ending" the match by winning on the scorecards? That would be silly, so no... Curiously, there's nothing defined in terms of point scoring actions. They seem to disregard it completely

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Well fuck I wrote all that and realized that's a slightly outdated one, and the most recent has this wording

"2. Impact: A judge shall assess if a fighter impacts their opponent significantly in the round, even though they may not have dominated the action. Impact includes visible evidence such as swelling and lacerations. Impact shall also be assessed when a fighter’s actions, using striking and/or grappling, lead to a diminishing of their opponent’s energy, confidence, abilities and spirit. All of these come as a direct result of impact. When a fighter is impacted by strikes, by lack of control and/or ability, this can create defining moments in the round and shall be assessed with great value.

3. Dominance: As MMA is an offensive based sport, dominance of a round can be seen in striking when the losing fighter is forced to continually defend, with no counters or reaction taken when openings present themselves. Dominance in the grappling phase can be seen by fighter staking dominant positions in the fight and utilizing those positions to attempt fight ending submissions or attacks. Merely holding a dominant position(s) shall not be a primary factor in assessing dominance. What the fighter does with those positions is what must be assessed. In the absence of dominance in
the grappling phase, as set forth in paragraph 3 of the promulgated rules, to be considered dominate, there must be a singularly or in combination, some types of submission attempts, strikes, or an overwhelming pace which is measured by improved or aggressive positional changes that cause the losing fighter to consistently be in a defensive or reactive mode"

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So the only thing I don't like about this one is the very end which basically implies you can just keep switching control positions and that's enough because your opponent is constantly reacting to it. Which in a sense means you could win by getting your opponent to constantly be frozen up due to feints. Which I guess has happened once... Like El----

Lol.

Yeah I think that's tenuous but there it is. In the paragraph before they do specifically point out instances of "impact" like lacerations and swelling. So there is that. I bolded it. Props to anyone that read that. Rule document-ese is quite dry, lol

 
"Effective Striking/Grappling shall be considered the first priority of round assessments. Effective Aggressiveness is a ‘Plan B’ and should not be considered unless the judge does not see ANY advantage in the Effective Striking/Grappling realm. Cage/Ring Control (‘Plan C’) should only be needed when ALL other criteria are 100% even for both competitors. This will be an extremely rare occurrence.

PRIORITIZED CRITERIA:

Effective Striking/Grappling

Legal blows that have immediate or cumulative impact with the potential to contribute towards the end of the match with the IMMEDIATE weighing in more heavily than the cumulative impact. Successful execution of takedowns, submission attempts, reversals and the achievement of advantageous positions that produce immediate or cumulative impact with the potential to contribute to the end of the match, with the IMMEDIATE weighing more heavily than the cumulative impact.” It shall be noted that a successful takedown is not merely a changing of position, but the establishment of an attack from the use of the takedown. Top and bottom position fighters are assessed more on the impactful/effective result of their actions, more so than their position. This criterion will be the deciding factor in a high majority of decisions when scoring a round. The next two criteria must be treated as a backup and used ONLY when Effective Striking/Grappling is 100% equal for the round."

---

From


So they use the word impact when referring to both grappling and striking, and they emphasize that this "impact" is toward ending the match. It pretty clearly seems to be emphasizing that only anything that will contribute to "end" the match counts, and by that I would assume they mean a finish... The only other thing is "ending" the match by winning on the scorecards? That would be silly, so no... Curiously, there's nothing defined in terms of point scoring actions. They seem to disregard it completely

---

Well fuck I wrote all that and realized that's a slightly outdated one, and the most recent has this wording

"2. Impact: A judge shall assess if a fighter impacts their opponent significantly in the round, even though they may not have dominated the action. Impact includes visible evidence such as swelling and lacerations. Impact shall also be assessed when a fighter’s actions, using striking and/or grappling, lead to a diminishing of their opponent’s energy, confidence, abilities and spirit. All of these come as a direct result of impact. When a fighter is impacted by strikes, by lack of control and/or ability, this can create defining moments in the round and shall be assessed with great value.

3. Dominance: As MMA is an offensive based sport, dominance of a round can be seen in striking when the losing fighter is forced to continually defend, with no counters or reaction taken when openings present themselves. Dominance in the grappling phase can be seen by fighter staking dominant positions in the fight and utilizing those positions to attempt fight ending submissions or attacks. Merely holding a dominant position(s) shall not be a primary factor in assessing dominance. What the fighter does with those positions is what must be assessed. In the absence of dominance in
the grappling phase, as set forth in paragraph 3 of the promulgated rules, to be considered dominate, there must be a singularly or in combination, some types of submission attempts, strikes, or an overwhelming pace which is measured by improved or aggressive positional changes that cause the losing fighter to consistently be in a defensive or reactive mode"


So the only thing I don't like about this one is the very end which basically implies you can just keep switching control positions and that's enough because your opponent is constantly reacting to it. Which in a sense means you could win by getting your opponent to constantly be frozen up due to feints. Which I guess has happened once... Like El----

Lol.

Yeah I think that's tenuous but there it is. In the paragraph before they do specifically point out instances of "impact" like lacerations and swelling. So there is that. I bolded it. Props to anyone that read that. Rule document-ese is quite dry, lol


They have to account for a wide spectrum of ways a match can play out.

So theoretically, if neither of us land anything but I'm coming forward the whole fight, then I win.

I think Big John said "impact" is the word they went with instead of damage. But I don't buy it because the word impact can be more than just a synonym for damage.
 
They have to account for a wide spectrum of ways a match can play out.

So theoretically, if neither of us land anything but I'm coming forward the whole fight, then I win.

I think Big John said "impact" is the word they went with instead of damage. But I don't buy it because the word impact can be more than just a synonym for damage.
Well, yeah. This sentence seems to cover that

"Impact shall also be assessed when a fighter’s actions, using striking and/or grappling, lead to a diminishing of their opponent’s energy, confidence, abilities and spirit."

And it's a good point. Like if you measurably gas out your opponent in one round... The issue is, that's almost impossible to see within that round. The round by round scoring fails pretty bad and they almost seem to not acknowledge it
 
But... Why? We used to have standups/separations to deal with this. They were just a way of saying "hey, we don't have all day for this." It's being broadcast and watched. And it's arguable they also fill in the gap for the techniques that WOULD be used if you could literally do anything while holding your opponent down. We don't want either of these scenarios (eye pokes, headbutts, etc; infinite time matches), though we want it to be as close to a real fight as possible. What's in danger of happening here is people get so used to and pigeonholed down the "MMA" route for so long it degenerates into something like Olympic karate

It's time for change.

The issue with what you said is how often the scenario happens that fighters trade 1 round each, and then someone "wisens" up and goes for a control round. Then we all quietly applaud in the dead Apex while Cormier awkwardly mumbles something about how "yeah, wrestling's the best." Both fighters probably left that third round fresher than if they had stopped after the second.

Remember when fighters would just take a breather while clinching or grappling? They knew a standup was coming
It reminds me of when Islam was just stalling against volk. Volk I think was talking to him a little and islam said “we’ll get up “
 
if this was in prison i would always 99 percent of the time
favor the guy on the top
<lol>
 
"Damage" isn't the only criteria.

I don't even think damage is an actual criteria.
This is the thing that people do not understand and I can tell you exactly why people started getting confused.

The rules, (imo, very clearly) state that effective striking and grappling are the same and primary tier and that the "effect" is weighted more towards the things that are immediately threatening a fight ending, and less towards cumulative impact. All things in that category score points, except at different rates.

Then, in order to clarify that "effective" only includes offensive maneuvers as opposed to things like dodging strikes or preventing takedowns, which they consider to be NOT point scoring, they used the word damage. They didn't mean it in terms of "ouchies" like a cut, they mean in the realm of offensive technique, (which, again, all scores points) what gets more points are the things that came close to immediately ending the fight.

Problem was, ya got commentators who can't even be bothered to know what the rules are in each state they're talking about and a largely uninformed audience of people who go "I know what the word damage means and do not need to know any further context in which that word is being used," as if they idea that words have multiple meanings is new to them, then you see a guy in the cage have blood above his eye in round 2 from a cut in round 1 and self-proclaimed genius Dominick Cruz going "Yeah, but look at that blood, that means the damage lost him this round and all future rounds because he's damaged."
 
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but i agree, i do think it’s a problem when fighters bank rounds on control time. they should do something about it, although im not sure what. that will take some thought.
I guess refs could be more active in doing a mental timer any time no strikes, submissions, or passes are being attempted and threaten to stand them up sooner. The argument there would be that, yes the takedown was effective grappling, but if you are not attempting any of the above, then arguably the "effective grappling/striking" has stopped, even if you do remain on top. I get that that's probably really restrictive of grapplers, but comon, it should at least force the game of fighters throwing pitter patters constantly to fight off the stand up timer. Even if that is just another form of them gaming the system, that is still work they need to do, and maybe next round when they start standing again, their arms are just that more blown out
 
iirc it’s supposed to be like a tie-breaker, right? that is, it counts for nothing unless there’s no other way to score it.

personally i think some kinds of control are basically a way of avoiding the fight, and they really serve no purpose. i view it as a sort of timidity, which is against the rules.
So no, what gets people confused is that the third tier is usually called "control" as a short hand, but it's only "octagon control." Actually positional control is in the first tier inside "effective grappling."

So what's supposed to happen (but judges don't have accountability, so put scoring criteria in one hand and shit in another and see which fills first):

Who won the total combined effective striking and grappling that round?

If it was a tie, who was more effectively aggressive?

If that was a tie, who had more control of the cage, particularly the center?
 
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