Should wilder be considered a p4p great

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Boxing is a business. They did not agree on the same terms. I don't get why you even brought this up, unless you're inferring he ducked Joshua because he sucks.

I revisited this. Joshua, when he was still undefeated and a three-belt unified champ, offered Ortiz a career high payday of $5 million. That was just his guaranteed purse. Ortiz priced himself out after asking for double. Keep in mind that his biggest purse up until that point was only a $1.5 million guarantee. Joshua's offer was more than 3× that amount and Ortiz had the opportunity to fight for 3 of the 4 belts. You can't even make this stuff up.

Luis Ortiz Turned Down $5M, Asked For $10M To Fight Joshua

 

[Juzie]

The current world champions are hard to beat.

Can you explain how you came up with this conclusion?

One is a cruiserweight and one is a dude who got knocked out by a guy who can't even throw a proper hook and also had to rob an MMA fighter....pretty weak champion line up if you ask me.

With all due respect to Usyk who's a monster of a cruiserweight but if modern heavies were any good and not afraid to fight he probably wouldn't be able to be a champ at that weight class.

 

[Stick upkid]

I get what you’re saying but no I don’t think Wilder has p4p level skills. Even if you could somehow shrink wilder and keep his power proportional to the size, you have to take into account that wilder has benefited from the lower level of competition at HW. If he were fighting in a lower weight class but deeper talent pool I think he would run into trouble eventually. His best performances are the 0-2-1 against fury and the two wins over Ortiz.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

Can you explain how you came up with this conclusion?

One is a cruiserweight and one is a dude who got knocked out by a guy who can't even throw a proper hook and also had to rob an MMA fighter....pretty weak champion line up if you ask me.

With all due respect to Usyk who's a monster of a cruiserweight but if modern heavies were any good and not afraid to fight he probably wouldn't be able to be a champ at that weight class.

Cruiserweight is literally the bordering weight class so it seems strange to diminish them as if he is a super middle weight or something. If he is a MONSTER at cruiserweight, why would ANY good heavyweight just be able to beat him? And saying he is a monster is understating it, he is the greatest cruiserweight of all time.




I feel like you said that without proper context of the history of the heavyweight division. The only other cruiserweight who might be better than Usyk is Evander Holyfield. Were the 90s filled with weak heavyweight champions because Evander Holyfield was a champion also?


Heavyweights have always had "cruiserweights" as their champions. Msot of the best heavyweights of all time are the size of cruiserweights. You would actually have a harder time listing all time great natural heavyweights than "cruiserweights".

That isn't even mentioning Ali, Frazier, Marciano, Louis, Dempsey, Norton, Patterson, and countless others. Some of those guys are even smaller than cruiserweights.

 

[Deleted member 267581]

Because the relation between weight and sporting advantage isnt linear. A 300 lbs Fury overcoming the insurmountable odds of a 400 lbs Butterbean is not as impressive as a minimumweight going up 10 lbs to fight Estrada. A small HW gets little or no P4P considerations for beating a big HW.

It is pretty much linear. That’s why we have weight classes.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

It is pretty much linear. That’s why we have weight classes.

You don't seem to understand his point. A small fighter having to give up say 10 pounds is more significant than it'd be to a big fighter. That's because, in relation to their size, it's a higher percentage of their overall body weight. If a 130 pounder has to give up 13 pounds that's a lot. It's 10% of their body weight. To a 230 lbs fighter though it only represents 5.6% of their total body weight. Smaller fighters are more sensitive to weight changes hence why the lightest divisions are only separated by a few pounds.

 

[Jonny Ninja]

I'm not sure if Ortiz never holding a world title is relevant when the only champion he challenged is the same one that is being discussed.

It's not like Joseph Parker beat his ass or something. Wilder was the only guy who had beaten Ortiz for pretty much his entire career. Ortiz is not elite, but would he beat the 2nd tier of heavyweights? It seems plausible to me, he certainly is good enough to be a transitional champion.

We’ll never really know his good he is as he fought nobody’s and lost to the only 2 decent fighters he ever fought. That’s his and his teams fault! Bear in mind that when he was at his peak, and smashing through cans and journeymen, he was juicing and is a 2 time cheat. And he didn’t actually step up until he was about 40 years old, so almost certainly past his prime

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

We’ll never really know his good he is as he fought nobody’s and lost to the only 2 decent fighters he ever fought. That’s his and his teams fault! Bear in mind that when he was at his peak, and smashing through cans and journeymen, he was juicing and is a 2 time cheat. And he didn’t actually step up until he was about 40 years old, so almost certainly past his prime

And priced himself out against AJ. Wanted 8 figures lol. You're right about the PEDs. That version of Ortiz hasn't existed since he got busted. Supposedly he's only 44 but he looks like he's well into his 50s. I think that he's on a similar type of level in skill to an unjuiced Povetkin. Only a clean Povetkin actually has better wins on his resume. It's too bad we never got a fight between the two.

 

[Jonny Ninja]

And priced himself out against AJ. Wanted 8 figures lol. You're right about the PEDs. That version of Ortiz hasn't existed since he got busted. Supposedly he's only 44 but he looks like he's well into his 50s. I think that he's on a similar type of level in skill to an unjuiced Povetkin. Only a clean Povetkin actually has better wins on his resume. It's too bad we never got a fight between the two.

His career highlights are his losses to wilder. Sad really, as he was clearly talented but either him his team, or both held him back and wasted his career

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

His career highlights are his losses to wilder. Sad really, as he was clearly talented but either him his team, or both held him back and wasted his career

I agree. Talk about a mismanaged career.

 

[Jonny Ninja]

Lol This thread has aged badly

 

[Roids]

lmao. Clowns were saying this can was a hall of famer.

 

[TronSpecial]

ATG Wilder right there gentleman. 10/10 thread lmao.

 

[PBAC]

Yes

 

[Goatenstein]

I hope Wilder is happy with how much time he wasted during his prime.

 

[Nabs]

Nah.

 

[Nabs]

I hope Wilder is happy with how much time he wasted during his prime.

Exactly! He also should have learned to box a long time ago. That leaping 1-2 is just too predictable.

 

[Seano]

I rank him at #2 P4P after the loss to Parker. I think he deserve to drop a spot after that.

 

[Deleted member 587672]

I mean maybe not great but the fact that he’s fighting guys the size he is. There are weight classes for a reason not height, that’s like saying let’s make Duran and Tommy hearns the same height and see who wins….

The gap between wilder and Parker is bigger than tank and Canelo

What happened to "the gap"?

 

[borntoloseNOT]

Goddamn it, Wilder. Well, the story was fun while it lasted but if you are getting beat by the Joseph Parker’s of the world I’d rather you retired than take any more dangerous fights.