Opinion Should they ban assault weapons?

[Greoric]

I'm picturing the TS making the angry face because this thread didn' go the way he had hoped. He doesn't realize how ill informed he is or how often this topic is argued.


tldr: hahaha TS is an idiot.

That's the topic that restores my faith in this site a little bit. The 2A has been argued so much on here, and its almost come to a settling point, where even the most hard core leftists (or liberals) on here knowledge its legitimacy.

 

[Farmer Br0wn]

Oh well that changes everything

That's how evidence works.

 

[Teppodama]

A good first start to this question is defining exactly is or should be considered an "Assault" weapon. Is it capacity? Is it penetrative power? Is it cyclic rate?

1. if it's capacity, then a Glock with a 30rd magazine is functionally no different than an AR15 with a 30rd magainze..

2. Is it penetrative power? An AR15 223/5.56 cartridge is obviously more powerful than say a 9mm cartridge. The major difference being effective range combined with penetrative power. Given the median ranges most mass shootings are likely occurring at, the AR15 offers no substantive advantage over a 9mm holding the same capacity magazine. Factor in full metal jacketed rounds and the AR15 becomes the more effective platform so in that regard if you want to legislate the AR15 effectively simply ban purchases of FMJ cartridges by civilians for 223/5.56 and above. When you consider the ease of concealability of a standard 9mm compared to an AR15 as well as the ease of use and maneuverability of a handgun compared to an AR15 in close quarters and short ranges, the handgun is a much more versatile and effective tool. The only benefit of the AR15 in such situations is "Shock and Awe".

3. Cyclic rate? I would argue that an average shooter can fire as many rounds from a 30rd Glock as from an 30rd AR15 in roughly the same amount of time as it's solely dependent on how quickly you can squeeze the trigger. Now, this doesn't take into account such gimmicks as bump stocking but aside from the Vegas shooter, I've seen no reports of such being utilized at any of these mass shootings.

So, what do you consider an assault weapon?

 

[Greoric]

They literally recommend more guns in schools.

A few are open to the idea of registration and licensing, and making it easier to take guns from crazy people. But most just want escalation.

That's the obvious solution here though isn't it? The problem is that our schools are soft targets, prime for this kind of shit to keep happening. There's a reason why they don't target police stations.

 

[Teppodama]

I'll give it a crack. Granted I'm whittling out the retarded criteria like flash-hiders and pistol grips.

• Barrel over 16"
• Semi-auto

Why does the length of the barrel play a factor on whether it is an assault rifle or not? Short barreled AR15s (SBR's) are fairly common and have barrels under 16". By your definition they wouldn't be an assault weapon despite having the exact same capabilities.

As for semi-auto, with disregard for caliber, a designation of semi-auto would mean that most handguns are effectively assault weapons.

I would argue that the most significant characteristic of an assault rifle compared to an AR15 is cyclic rate, or full auto capability.

You might argue capacity as well but once again, with the advent of extended round magazines, such as the 30rd magazines easily purchased for Glocks, I would argue that handguns could be designated assault weapons purely on the magazine capacity used at the time.

Caliber of the round? There are perfectly legal old school bolt action rifles with larger calibers.

Type of round? Now here is an interesting one. Full metal jackets are specifically designed to deal with armor and obstructions. An AR15 utilized for competition shooting or hunting really has no need for armor penetrating capacity in most normal civilian usage. So, if you want to legislate simply ban civilians from being able to purchase FMJ ammunition above a certain caliber or altogether as well as limiting magazine capacity to a more reasonable amount, say no more than the maximum that can normally be held by a handgun which is around 19rds now (Obviously no extended magazines).

 

[44nutman]

I don’t want my 11 year old to drive a car but that does not mean I want to ban cars.
I don’t want to ban guns either but their is something wrong when it takes less time to get one than it does my drivers license.
Anytime anyone suggest rational gun regulations, everyone shuts it down with ban knives, ban guns, tyranny, not taking my gun.
If you want zero gun regulation, then let me know and I will not waste either of our time debating about sensible gun regulations.

 

[RerouteToRemain]

Anytime anyone suggest rational gun regulations, everyone shuts it down with ban knives, ban guns, tyranny, not taking my gun.
If you want zero gun regulation, then let me know and I will not waste either of our time debating about sensible gun regulations.

What do you think of what I've proposed on the last page. #514.

I keep posting it and get basically zero response from the people asking for common sense or regulation.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

you havent been able to buy a full auto since 1934.

Are you one of these folks calling for new laws who have no understanding of the previous laws? Definitely the latter. Please insert whatever your usual response is to someone who insists on a fact and is wrong.

There have been studies on the question and even those that find some connection to increased aggression are talking about small effect sizes. Basically, a good kid becomes a slightly more aggressive good kid after playing violent video games. They don't trigger homicidal rampages.

I didn't say these shootings are strictly the result of firearms, there's a few angles you could take. But taking the video game angle to deflect from the gun angle is silly or disingenuous. Right let's talk about video game control, that's the discussion we need to be having right now

Now you're saying there are studies and they do show some effect on aggression. And because it all by itself doesn't magically transform some kids into murderers it can't be part of the problem?

I'm sorry you think broadening one's understanding of a complicated dynamic by examining how multiple variables could be at play is deflecting. If you believe guns aren't strictly the problem, then please share what the other factors are. I wonder if there's overlap with the other number of things mentioned in that facebook post you scoffed at. When someone is in a profession for 20 years I'm generally receptive to their observations on how it has changed. Because as has been pointed out, guns aren't just suddenly available.

 

[Teppodama]

Sounds like you might like part of what I have proposed in 2 of the threads on the front page already.

I would be open to looking into legislation like this. It would need to be written by pro gun/2nd lawyers so they can't find some loophole to abuse rights.

I have no real issue with this. One thing to consider, FMJ ammunition. Why would or do civilians need armor penetrative ammunition?

 

[IloveTHIS]

Person I feel like we should have more firearms rights. I'm ok with a longer wait perior or better background check, but we should have the right to own fully automatic, genuine "assault rifles." Its unconstitutional to ban them and limit us to semis IMO.

And the idea of a flat out ban is so retarded I'm not even going to begin. If you support handing over our guns to the government you deserve to have every last right stripped away and be raped of your freedom.

 

[Stoic1]

I don’t want my 11 year old to drive a car but that does not mean I want to ban cars.
I don’t want to ban guns either but their is something wrong when it takes less time to get one than it does my drivers license.
Anytime anyone suggest rational gun regulations, everyone shuts it down with ban knives, ban guns, tyranny, not taking my gun.
If you want zero gun regulation, then let me know and I will not waste either of our time debating about sensible gun regulations.

Probably because you haven't actually proposed any "sensible" ones. Mainly because they don't make sense.

But please - begin with what you believe would be "sensible".

 

[Teppodama]

Person I feel like we should have more firearms rights. I'm ok with a longer wait perior or better background check, but we should have the right to own fully automatic, genuine "assault rifles." Its unconstitutional to ban them and limit us to semis IMO.

And the idea of a flat out ban is so retarded I'm not even going to begin. If you support handing over our guns to the government you deserve to have every last right stripped away and be raped of your freedom.

While I can understand at least part of the sentiment, that kind of attitude isn't helpful, especially when those who don't want you to be able to exercise that right are more often in power and/or a position to legislate against you.

Ideally, it would be a cut and dry matter but the reality is while such rights can be curtailed through legal legislation then you are forced to consider their position in order to meet at some common ground and make decisions both parties can live with.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Why does the length of the barrel play a factor on whether it is an assault rifle or not? Short barreled AR15s (SBR's) are fairly common and have barrels under 16". By your definition they wouldn't be an assault weapon despite having the exact same capabilities.

As for semi-auto, with disregard for caliber, a designation of semi-auto would mean that most handguns are effectively assault weapons.

I would argue that the most significant characteristic of an assault rifle compared to an AR15 is cyclic rate, or full auto capability.

You might argue capacity as well but once again, with the advent of extended round magazines, such as the 30rd magazines easily purchased for Glocks, I would argue that handguns could be designated assault weapons purely on the magazine capacity used at the time.

Caliber of the round? There are perfectly legal old school bolt action rifles with larger calibers.

Type of round? Now here is an interesting one. Full metal jackets are specifically designed to deal with armor and obstructions. An AR15 utilized for competition shooting or hunting really has no need for armor penetrating capacity in most normal civilian usage. So, if you want to legislate simply ban civilians from being able to purchase FMJ ammunition above a certain caliber or altogether as well as limiting magazine capacity to a more reasonable amount, say no more than the maximum that can normally be held by a handgun which is around 19rds now (Obviously no extended magazines).

Assault weapon is a stupid term for a semi-auto rifle. That definition I put forth is based on two things. SCOTUS ruled there's a right to a handgun and SBR's have been NFA'd, so that leaves rifles with barrels 16" and above. The semi-auto portion comes from the fact that the high rates of fire they complain about and the fact that that's really all an AR15 is. Just a semi-auto rifle with a detachable magazine.

Bottom line is there's no reason to think just outlawing AR's will stop shootings so more laws will be required. When kids start using their Ruger 10/22's those guns will need to go too, right?

 

[Stoic1]

I have no real issue with this. One thing to consider, FMJ ammunition. Why would or do civilians need armor penetrative ammunition?

Are you suggesting that FMJ is armor penetrating?

You know that almost all rifle caliber ammunition is capable of penetrating body armor, correct?

You are also aware it is not legal to manufacture or selling actual "armor penetrating" as in, plates, correct?

 

[RerouteToRemain]

I have no real issue with this. One thing to consider, FMJ ammunition. Why would or do civilians need armor penetrative ammunition?

Fmj is standard ammo for basically every centerfire round(pistol or rifle)

Fmj isn't hard armor piercing. Full metal jacket. It's a thin copper jacket surrounding lead. Soft point has lead exposed to aid in either expansion or fragmentation.

If you are talking about soft armor any rifle round will go through it.

 

[Islam Imamate]

This is about people with history of psych problems, on watch list, extremist, etc ... being able to buy what they want without being vetted. What do you propose to do about this?

Now you're saying there are studies and they do show some effect on aggression. And because it all by itself doesn't magically transform some kids into murderers it can't be part of the problem?

Like I said, the evidence suggest a relatively mild increase given the kinds of effect sizes we're talking about

I'm sorry you think broadening one's understanding of a complicated dynamic by examining how multiple variables could be at play is deflecting.

In this case it is. She wants to talk about everything but guns. For fuck's sake she emissions reality TV.

If you believe guns aren't strictly the problem, then please share what the other factors are. I wonder if there's overlap with the other number of things mentioned in that facebook post you scoffed at. When someone is in a profession for 20 years I'm generally receptive to their observations on how it has changed. Because as has been pointed out, guns aren't just suddenly available.

When someone is a 6th grade teacher I tend to take their opinions with a grain of salt. Not exactly a profession known for intellectual giants.

As far as what factors I do think are at play, could be many different things most of which we can have little control over. I think there is a copy cat element to it that is facilitated by media coverage but restricting what the press can report on and how violates the first amendment. In many case mental health is an issue but these shooters tend to be extreme outliers even among the mentally ill so there is not way to really sniff out every one of them out of the vast majority of non-violent mentally ill individuals.

 

[Teppodama]

Assault weapon is a stupid term for a semi-auto rifle. That definition I put forth is based on two things. SCOTUS ruled there's a right to a handgun and SBR's have been NFA'd, so that leaves rifles with barrels 16" and above. The semi-auto portion comes from the fact that the high rates of fire they complain about and the fact that that's really all an AR15 is. Just a semi-auto rifle with a detachable magazine.

Bottom line is there's no reason to think just outlawing AR's will stop shootings so more laws will be required. When kids start using their Ruger 10/22's those guns will need to go too, right?

Completely understand and agree.

 

[Based and White Pilled]

I'll give it a crack. Granted I'm whittling out the retarded criteria like flash-hiders and pistol grips.

• Barrel over 16"
• Semi-auto

That includes a lot of hunting rifles.

 

[Takes Two To Tango]

 

[44nutman]

Probably because you haven't actually proposed any "sensible" ones. Mainly because they don't make sense.

But please - begin with what you believe would be "sensible".

2 week waiting period after you purchase your gun.
Mental checks every 5 to 10 years. Some sort of standardized test.
Tougher penalties for illegally owning a gun.
Those are the only three that I really care about.