Should they ban assault weapons?

[Madmick]

Can we stop with this ridiculous thing where we pretend like we don't know what they are talking about? Common usage of assault weapon means a weapon which is designed in a manner for assaulting the enemy. Any high capacity, semi-automatic weapon with a rifle cartridge like the AR is an assault weapon to them. Let's stop arguing semantics. Everyone realizes they aren't talking about actual automatics.

I'll stop doing the ridiculous thing where I "pretend" I don't know what they're asking me to outlaw when they concretely define what they are asking me to outlaw.

I'm a rationalist like that.

 

[DoomPatrol]

I'll stop doing the ridiculous thing where I "pretend" I don't know what they're asking me to outlaw when they concretely define what they are asking me to outlaw.

I'm a rationalist like that.

When they are talking about assault weapons, if you can't discern what they are talking about, then you have some serious intelligence issues. They aren't talking about your Remington 700 hunting rifle. They are talking about semi-automatic rifles that can hold 30 rounds and fire as fast as you pull the trigger. They are talking about rifles where you can reload another 30 rounds in half a second. They are talking about rifles that wouldn't be out of place in a rifle squad in Afghanistan. That's what they are talking about.

There are so many individual variations, that it's hard to classify what is what when gun owners won't even let them have the discussion.

 

[The Beast Within]

criminals are going to get them illegally anyway, they got nothing to lose, law abiding citizen gotta defend themselves

 

[Scerpi]

I'll stop doing the ridiculous thing where I "pretend" I don't know what they're asking me to outlaw when they concretely define what they are asking me to outlaw.

I'm a rationalist like that.

When they are talking about assault weapons, if you can't discern what they are talking about, then you have some serious intelligence issues. They aren't talking about your Remington 700 hunting rifle. They are talking about semi-automatic rifles that can hold 30 rounds and fire as fast as you pull the trigger. They are talking about rifles where you can reload another 30 rounds in half a second. They are talking about rifles that wouldn't be out of place in a rifle squad in Afghanistan. That's what they are talking about.

There are so many individual variations, that it's hard to classify what is what when gun owners won't even let them have the discussion.

A rifle is a rifle... then there's clips. I agree with you on the Mini-14. It's my favorite rifle as well. Supposedly a "varmit" killer.

Therefore, would this fall under an "assault rifle" ban?

Spoiler

So does semi-auto fire and ammo capacity define an AR?

Several states and cities already have bans on high capacity clips.

I agree with Madmick. It's easy for the politicians to make these proclamations with no idea about what they are talking about.

 

[usmctanker242]

He wasn't using an AR15. He was using a Sig MCX. Similar but not an AR15.

Also an assault rifle has select fire capabilities. An AR15 does not have select fire.

Can you explain, with some detail beyond "modular hand grips/buttstock" how the SigSauer MCX is NOT an AR-15? For every single intent and purpose, the MCX is Sig's AR-15 variant. The lower receiver is a mil-spec AR-15, if chambered in 5.56 it will utilize the AR-15 magazines. Outside of possibly the buffer assembly and gas control system, it is 100% an an AR-15... anybody with any knowledge will call it an AR-15 or an AR-15 variant. Regardless, for every single intent and purpose, it's an AR-15.

For the record, I'm a gun guy, I love guns, I think every law-abiding citizen should be able to have an AR-15. But lets not be disingenuous and pretend that the MCX doesn't act and function exactly like an AR-15.

 

[Lord_Impaler]

I'm not really sure what all would work and you're totally right. If we ban all high capacity weapons, someone could easily arm themselves with the next best thing. So I'm not sure where the answer is. I just know that as long as you can drop $2k and become armed to the teeth, there will be acts of violence like this.



I think any reasonable person would include the Mini 14 in a ban on high capacity firearms. It takes 30 round mags and has the fire rate of the AR. It's actually one of my favorite rifles. I don't think banning weapons is the answer though. It's a band-aid approach to a bigger problem. Once you rid yourself of high capacity weapons, they will simply use the next best thing.



Can we stop with this ridiculous thing where we pretend like we don't know what they are talking about? Common usage of assault weapon means a weapon which is designed in a manner for assaulting the enemy. Any high capacity, semi-automatic weapon with a rifle cartridge like the AR is an assault weapon to them. Let's stop arguing semantics. Everyone realizes they aren't talking about actual automatics.

Even your definition here though is ambiguous. Define a "rifle cartridge"? Is it a specific list of cartridges? Is it any round that a rifle has ever been made to use?

So pistol caliber carbines are exempt from the ban?

What about saiga-12s?

There are plenty of similar platforms that woudln't be covered under your proposed definition; "Any high capacity, semi-automatic weapon with a rifle cartridge like the AR.... "

And what does Hi-cap mean, because in the last ban manufacturers just started shipping from the factory with 10 rounders so it wouldn't fit the definition of a "hi cap".

"Assault weapon" could include or omit a huge amount of stuff, it has to be concretely defined to even consider a ban.

 

[RerouteToRemain]

Can we stop with this ridiculous thing where we pretend like we don't know what they are talking about? Common usage of assault weapon means a weapon which is designed in a manner for assaulting the enemy. Any high capacity, semi-automatic weapon with a rifle cartridge like the AR is an assault weapon to them. Let's stop arguing semantics. Everyone realizes they aren't talking about actual automatics.

False.

They regularly claim you can buy full autos at gun shows. You have legislatures that also believe people can walk in a store and walk out with a full auto.

You see people in these very threads talking about the same thing listed above.

Also the OP of this very thread posted a video of a full auto M16 before myself and others corrected him.

You have senators make complete ass's of themselves on the Senate floor.

"This is a ghost gun,” de Leon begins, holding an unloaded rifle in his hands. “This right here has the ability with a .30-caliber clip to disperse with 30 bullets within half a second. Thirty magazine clip in half a second.”

The ghost gun was related to 80% lowers. They aren't allowed to be made full auto and his statement was for 3600 rpm lmao.

 

[Witchhunt]

How do I change my vote?

 

[Dolomite]

When they are talking about assault weapons, if you can't discern what they are talking about, then you have some serious intelligence issues. They aren't talking about your Remington 700 hunting rifle. They are talking about semi-automatic rifles that can hold 30 rounds and fire as fast as you pull the trigger. They are talking about rifles where you can reload another 30 rounds in half a second. They are talking about rifles that wouldn't be out of place in a rifle squad in Afghanistan. That's what they are talking about.

They're talking about any and every "semi-automatic center-fire with a detachable magazine", amirite?

They could distill that down even further, and say: "Semi-auto with detachable mag".

Or they could go even further and just say "guns" - but that's too damn far - so reel it in a bit and get in touch with their comic book/Hollywood movie fear: "Semi-autos". That's about perfect: semi-autos would be at home (and actually are) with a squad in Afghanistan or even in a police squad car.

Since 1963, which is when AR-15's showed up on the civilian market, until now - there's probably what? 10 million in private hands? More?

Throw in semi-auto only versions of the AK, FAL/L1A1, HK91/G3, M1A/M14, AUG, SCAR, Ruger's Mini's, Tavor, FN2000, Uzi and a whole slew of new SIG offerings (just to name a few) - and that's gotta be close to another 10 million or so.

 

[Strychnine]

The problem with a registry(essentially what you would need to create considering the 300+ million guns already out there) is that it can and will be abused. In other countries with registries they have introduced reclassification and confiscation legislation. So you have all these people register a type of firearm and it gets reclassified and they are told to either get a more extensive license or turn their weapons in to be destroyed.

Lever actions are looking to be banned in Australia now, pumps are already banned. The problem with a lot(not all) of anti's is that the end goal is to basically only allow break barrel shotguns and 3 round bolt action hunting rifles. Semi auto hand guns and rifles are definitely a target for a large % of anti's.


In other threads I have endorsed the idea of a license system done in a pro gun way(without a registry) as a good solution to quite a few problems imo. May not stop mass shooters(I don't think much would) but it would definitely reduce crime and black market. I can repost my thoughts/ideas on the license later if you are interested.

Well I know we're all afraid of the slippery slope, but I don't think that there's any way that the 2nd amendment is going to ever be repealed. They're just too many firearms out there already.

 

[Strychnine]

I'm against it. How are you going to enforce that if you don't make people register their guns first?

Do it at point of sale. Those that already have them are good to go. You don't have to have anything registered. Just want to make sure you're not a violent felon or just released from the crazy house.

 

[RerouteToRemain]

Can you explain, with some detail beyond "modular hand grips/buttstock" how the SigSauer MCX is NOT an AR-15? For every single intent and purpose, the MCX is Sig's AR-15 variant. The lower receiver is a mil-spec AR-15, if chambered in 5.56 it will utilize the AR-15 magazines. Outside of possibly the buffer assembly and gas control system, it is 100% an an AR-15... anybody with any knowledge will call it an AR-15 or an AR-15 variant. Regardless, for every single intent and purpose, it's an AR-15.

For the record, I'm a gun guy, I love guns, I think every law-abiding citizen should be able to have an AR-15. But lets not be disingenuous and pretend that the MCX doesn't act and function exactly like an AR-15.

You answered your own question. I did say it was similar. The upper's internals are completely different.

You mentioned variant. So the difference is if you look at AK and M1 variants the action is the same.

Would you classify bullpups, SCAR, etc as an AR15? Functionally the MCX internals are closer to a bullpup Tavor. They all use AR15 magazines. Many similar parts. Same lock rotating bolt. The AR15 isn't a generic name. It is the name for the rifle and it's system.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

because banning things that are already so prevalent works out so well *cough* prohibition *cough*

Seriously, compare alcohol stats in the US vs every gun stat and tell me which causes more deaths and which one should be banned first.

 

[DoomPatrol]

A rifle is a rifle... then there's clips. I agree with you on the Mini-14. It's my favorite rifle as well. Supposedly a "varmit" killer.

Therefore, would this fall under an "assault rifle" ban?

Spoiler

So does semi-auto fire and ammo capacity define an AR?

Several states and cities already have bans on high capacity clips.

I agree with Madmick. It's easy for the politicians to make these proclamations with no idea about what they are talking about.

I would say that weapon would fall under the term. Just because it has wooden furniture doesn't mean much. The issue with only several states having bans is that the surrounding areas do not. People love to cite Chicago for it's gun violence despite a ban on basically all guns. The problem with Chicago is you can leave the city and go buy anything you want, then drive back. America gets most of it's guns from domestic manufacturers. So cutting that off would significantly reduce their availability. As I've said though, I'm not sure that's the answer. I love owning my guns, and I wouldn't let someone take mine from me.

Even your definition here though is ambiguous. Define a "rifle cartridge"? Is it a specific list of cartridges? Is it any round that a rifle has ever been made to use?

So pistol caliber carbines are exempt from the ban?

What about saiga-12s?

There are plenty of similar platforms that woudln't be covered under your proposed definition; "Any high capacity, semi-automatic weapon with a rifle cartridge like the AR.... "

And what does Hi-cap mean, because in the last ban manufacturers just started shipping from the factory with 10 rounders so it wouldn't fit the definition of a "hi cap".

"Assault weapon" could include or omit a huge amount of stuff, it has to be concretely defined to even consider a ban.

Honestly I have no clue where to start and stop it. The problem is with the thousands of different variations. I think we can all agree that high capacity weapons of any caliber can be very deadly when used like that. It could be a 9mm AR pistol and still wreck someone's day.

False.

They regularly claim you can buy full autos at gun shows. You have legislatures that also believe people can walk in a store and walk out with a full auto.

You see people in these very threads talking about the same thing listed above.

Also the OP of this very thread posted a video of a full auto M16 before myself and others corrected him.

You have senators make complete ass's of themselves on the Senate floor.

"This is a ghost gun,” de Leon begins, holding an unloaded rifle in his hands. “This right here has the ability with a .30-caliber clip to disperse with 30 bullets within half a second. Thirty magazine clip in half a second.”

The ghost gun was related to 80% lowers. They aren't allowed to be made full auto and his statement was for 3600 rpm lmao.

Well you're putting all anti-gun people into the same category like they are all the same person with the same ideas. Different people have different opinions. Not everyone is a gun expert. You don't have to be a gun expert to know that they cause thousands of unnecessary deaths a year, and that ones that would be home on a battlefield have little purpose on our streets other than the really far fetched idea that we'll have to fight the government one day.

They're talking about any and every "semi-automatic center-fire with a detachable magazine", amirite?

They could distill that down even further, and say: "Semi-auto with detachable mag".

Or they could go even further and just say "guns" - but that's too damn far - so reel it in a bit and get in touch with their comic book/Hollywood movie fear: "Semi-autos". That's about perfect: semi-autos would be at home (and actually are) with a squad in Afghanistan or even in a police squad car.

Since 1963, which is when AR-15's showed up on the civilian market, until now - there's probably what? 10 million in private hands? More?

Throw in semi-auto only versions of the AK, FAL/L1A1, HK91/G3, M1A/M14, AUG, SCAR, Ruger's Mini's, Tavor, FN2000, Uzi and a whole slew of new SIG offerings (just to name a few) - and that's gotta be close to another 10 million or so.

That sounds about right. I'm not sure what the solution is. I don't want a ban on these weapons. I enjoy owning one, and it's my right. That said, these things are killing people almost daily. I just don't see how owning these weapons will fit in with a 21st century America.

 

[usmctanker242]

You answered your own question. I did say it was similar. The upper's internals are completely different.

You mentioned variant. So the difference is if you look at AK and M1 variants the action is the same.

Would you classify bullpups, SCAR, etc as an AR15? Functionally the MCX internals are closer to a bullpup Tavor. They all use AR15 magazines. Many similar parts. Same lock rotating bolt. The AR15 isn't a generic name. It is the name for the rifle and it's system.

Bullpups are a different weapon design all together... the MCX is Sig's AR-15 variant which is basically just replacing the stock parts, outside of the lower receiver, with modular parts. It looks, handles, and feels exactly like an AR-15. As I said, for all intents and purposes, the MCX is an AR-15. I just think it's super disingenuous that people are so adamant that the Orlando shooter didn't use an AR-15. Were the guy using a weapon with a bullpup design, then I'd be on board with "him not using an AR-15."

As for the AR-15 name, are you referring to the idea that "if it isn't an Armalite, it's not an AR-15?"

 

[RerouteToRemain]

Well you're putting all anti-gun people into the same category like they are all the same person with the same ideas. Different people have different opinions. Not everyone is a gun expert. You don't have to be a gun expert to know that they cause thousands of unnecessary deaths a year, and that ones that would be home on a battlefield have little purpose on our streets other than the really far fetched idea that we'll have to fight the government one day.

No I'm not. You said "Everyone realizes they aren't talking about actual automatics".

So I responded with "they". I never said all. I provided proof. Even proof of a senator while trying to pass gun legislation.

They don't kill thousands. They kill less than blunt objects or knives. I believe the estimate for last year was 248. I think someone posted it earlier itt.

 

[Dolomite]

I just don't see how owning these weapons will fit in with a 21st century America.

well I really don't worry about it all that much - I pay people for that (pro-gun organizations, my currently elected representatives, etc).

I say, you wanna extend past control of sales and enter the area of private ownership - just fucking say so - no more pussy footing around. Every gun control scheme worth trying has already seen the light of day. Let's see some new ideas.

 

[DoomPatrol]

No I'm not. You said "Everyone realizes they aren't talking about actual automatics".

So I responded with "they". I never said all. I provided proof. Even proof of a senator while trying to pass gun legislation.

They don't kill thousands. They kill less than blunt objects or knives. I believe the estimate for last year was 248. I think someone posted it earlier itt.

I don't see where you provided proof. You posted a picture and a random quote. It's rather hard to identify the weapon he's holding. It could be an automatic. Can't tell from the exterior. I'm sure there's a dumbass or two that can't tell the difference, but 80% of these people understand the AR platform is primarily semi automatic. It's the capacity and rate of fire that's an issue.

There were around 13,500 gun deaths in 2015. That's a huge problem.

 

[RerouteToRemain]

Bullpups are a different weapon design all together... the MCX is Sig's AR-15 variant which is basically just replacing the stock parts, outside of the lower receiver, with modular parts. It looks, handles, and feels exactly like an AR-15. As I said, for all intents and purposes, the MCX is an AR-15. I just think it's super disingenuous that people are so adamant that the Orlando shooter didn't use an AR-15. Were the guy using a weapon with a bullpup design, then I'd be on board with "him not using an AR-15."

As for the AR-15 name, are you referring to the idea that "if it isn't an Armalite, it's not an AR-15?"

When I said he didn't use an AR I immediately said what he used (so people can look it up) and said even said it was similar.

I'm talking about the system.

It's not an AR15.

The system isn't the same. It's not the same action. Other than the barrel the entire upper is different internally. Even though it can use a ar15 lower

What you are doing is generalizing. Being a fan of firearms I will call things by the correct name. Go ask Sig if the MCX is an AR15.

I would liken it to calling a supercharger and a turbocharger the same thing. Both are forced induction and engine parts. But they work differently.

 

[usmctanker242]

When I said he didn't use an AR I immediately said what he used (so people can look it up) and said even said it was similar.

I'm talking about the system.

It's not an AR15.

The system isn't the same. It's not the same action. Other than the barrel the entire upper is different internally. Even though it can use a ar15 lower

What you are doing is generalizing. Being a fan of firearms I will call things by the correct name. Go ask Sig if the MCX is an AR15.

I would liken it to calling a supercharger and a turbocharger the same thing. Both are forced induction and engine parts. But they work differently.

I love firearms as well, and I see what you're saying. I guess my feeling is that people were berating the liberal media for originally identifying the weapon as an AR-15, when it was in fact, a Sig MCX. I don't believe they did anything wrong with their initial identification... MOST people would look at that weapon and generalize it as an AR-15, especially in a pressured situation where shit was happening very fast.