Should no gi grappling include other forms of submissions?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by comquest, Jun 29, 2008.

  1. comquest

    comquest Yellow Belt

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    Just wanted to find out if you guys think that someday submission grappling (No gi) or BJJ would eventually allow wristlocks, finger joint manipulation or even pressure point submissions if there is such a term i.e (under the arm pit, behind the ear/jaw pressure point etc).. I mean it was not too long ago that footlocks and spinal cranks were not allowed in competition. Are there any other forms of submissions you think would be included in submission grappling someday? Would love to hear what you guys have to say.
     
  2. stlnl2

    stlnl2 Blue Belt

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    Wristlocks are legal in various forms and different comps. The ringer breaking is alot like hair pulling (no thank you for comp) and the "pressure points" are bullshit, so some of what you want is already there.
     
  3. Shemhazai

    Shemhazai Black Belt

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    Submission by tickling FTW.
     
  4. Mumrik

    Mumrik Silver Belt

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    Agree with stlnl2.

    I've always trained with wrist locks, and any kind of pressure pain is fine, but good luck getting anyone with a bit of heart to tap to that shit.

    Small joint manipulation at the level of fingers and toes are bullshit moves in my opinion. I agree that you might as well go for fish hooks, eye gouging and groin based subs then.
     
  5. YeahBee

    YeahBee Samdog Original Nine

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    I would hate that:icon_chee
     
  6. glocked1

    glocked1 White Belt

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    Haha. Thats how how I tap out my kids when we wrestle :)
     
  7. Rowan11088

    Rowan11088 Purple Belt

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    Well if you think about it, grappling is on some level supposed to simulate a fighting scenario (loosely), and in a real fight breaking someone's finger isn't going to put an end to it. Every other submission in the book could potentially end a real fight, or at least severely handicap your opponent (armbar), but small joints are really just a pain move.
     
  8. YeahBee

    YeahBee Samdog Original Nine

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    does a tight kesa count as pressure point?
     
  9. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    If your kesa is so tight that people tap to it, then that's impressive, or you're incredibly heavy.

    I'm all for learning wristlocks. The thing about finger manipulation is that you would have such a high number of injuries that people wouldn't compete. Or at least I wouldn't. I agree that in a self defense situation it might be useful, but so would a lot of other things, and it would be detrimental to developing your skills by focusing on that.
     
  10. georgejjr

    georgejjr Black Belt

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    Some like wrist locks are already allowed in many forms of grappling. As for the others, well, there are a lot of ways to make people submit using "grappling" that currently aren't allowd. You can gouge their eyes, you can throw them on their heads until they give up (or pass out, or are paralyzed), you can use fish hooks, you can do small joint (fingers) manipulation etc. The problem is that most of them lead to serious, long term injuries - not a great idea for a sport. You'd find very few people would be interesting in playing a sport with significant chance of losing an eye, becoming paralyzed etc.

    And if you're thinking about self-defense training, if you've enough control to throw someone on their back, you can throw them on their head, if you've enough control to choke them you can eye gouge them etc. There's very little gain and a huge amount to lose by introducing most of those submissions, even if they are in fact effective.
     
  11. joshross

    joshross White Belt

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    Competitive grappling is not supposed to resemble a real fight at all; it's competition. There are points and time limits. Self-defense would be more like a "real fight".
     
  12. Jason Pair

    Jason Pair Amateur Fighter

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    Wrist locks are legal, pressure points don't work on a actual resisting opponent seeing as how there is likely some sort of adrenaline involved in competition.. the day someone breaks out a "fingerlock" on me is the day I get DQed for introducing elbow smashing into nose pressurepointlock.
     
  13. _Glorfindel_

    _Glorfindel_ MMA Coach

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    Some pressure point help to get what you want. I dont use it to sibmit. For example, when i have the back of someone with a tight turtle position, i put my knucle along his ear/jaw line pressing hard. He will not tap, but there is a good chance that he open up things little more.

    I'm using it to move oponent, to create space not to submit.
     
  14. The Colonel

    The Colonel Purple Belt

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    I would never go into a competition where finger and toe locks are legal. I don't think that they would ever be legal, simply because there would be hundreds of guys out there willing to let their fingers get broken/twisted/dislocated rather than tap.

    I mean shit, they are already guys who are willing to let their arms get broken rather than tap, but to most guys having a broken finger isn't that big of a deal. But I can not think of a single job out there that doesn't involve a person using their hands in some way. When you start breaking fingers you're putting a person's job at risk.
     
  15. jasond

    jasond Purple Belt

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    Totally agree.
     
  16. batman69

    batman69 Purple Belt

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    hell why don't we skip right to making the "oil check" a legitimate move. it's a much better "pressure point" than any of the ones mentioned so far.
     
  17. blanko

    blanko Guest

    that's not a "pressure point" it just pain. Like knee on head.
     
  18. justinnnn

    justinnnn Sherdog's resident expert

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    If im mad enough ill trade a finger for a fight. Learning things like preasure points is a waste of time. Trying to hit one while a guy is moving / resisting is hard, if not damn near impossible. I argue this with people I know who do TMAs.
     
  19. comquest

    comquest Yellow Belt

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    Sorry for being naiive or ignorant but what is a tight kesa?
     
  20. Lord Coke

    Lord Coke Black Belt

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    Scarfold head and arm looks kinda like a headlock but with one of the oponnets arm in for getter control

    I use pressure point all the time in grappling. When your on your feet head to the temple for control thatis a automatic.. Read naked get under the nose to exspose the throat
     

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