Shoguns lost it.

[trane]

shogun didn't looked "gassed" until the third, and gustafsson took him down in every round. also, you could probably attribute shogun's fatigue to the incredible amount of punishment he was enduring.

you're right that alex hasn't shown awesome single or double leg td's, but he's so creative with the way he transitions from striking to grappling, and getting the td when it's available, that i can see him hip tossing anderson or tripping him then getting on top and doing some damage.

the fact that he managed to get some significant gnp on shogun is also impressive. rua has shown the ability to get up vs anyone who's taken him down, and his bjj off his back is leagues ahead of anderson. the best silva could hope for would be to wrap the mauler up and hope the ref stands them up.

He didn't really do anything to Shogun on the ground honestly.

 

[Mr. Hammer]

Name them then?

He'd beat Rampage, Bader, Lil Nog, Machida

Jon Jones, Gustafsson, Dan Hendo, maybe Phil Davis and Rashad because of the wrestling are the only ones I'd say would clearly beat him.

Pride Shogun dismantled Rampage. 2012 brawling Shogun that no longer uses his kicks and knees effectively would not.

 

[JKS]

Well for a start you could point out what parts of what I said are wrong.

Well not really wrong.....more of your opinions on him getting better or contending again. Just those 2 things I disagree with. And that he's taken a lot of damage, which he hasnt. Aside from two fights with Hendo and Jones.

How a fighters career changes is rather unpredictale, especially someone who is 31. There are many fighters that have more success and their best success later in their career. Shogun doesnt need to make drastic changes, just tune up a few things to make his game more effective.

And about his contendership. In a division like LHW a guy like Shogun is always within 2-3 fights of a title shot. Usually 2 wins does it. And its a dwindelling division considering Jones will be at HW by this time next year, Hendo is most likely goint to retire if he doesnt get the title shot or win the title (which I dont think he will) and Rampage is ending his contract with the UFC.

In a division with Machida, Gus, Rashad, Davis and Glover as other contenders. Shogun is always a contender.

 

[GuiSilva]

Gus doesnt have elite skills in any one area. But he is very good at everything, he has solid striking fundamentals, good wrestling offensively and defensively, uses his reach fairly well and has good cardio to boot. He wont be a champ imo but he is on his way to being an elite lhw and I think he'll be in the mix for a good while.

Good wrestling. That's why I think Gus wont go very deep. I just see him getting his reach and striking neutralized and being controlled on the ground by guys with great wrestling.

To name a few I believe Phil beats him again, Rashad, Hendo, Rampage and even Bader.

That remains to be seem though I can be very wrong and I'm paying for those fights should they happen.

Hey let me add Chael to that list too :wink:

 

[mawashi geri**]

Can you name at least 5 not counting Jones? Not challenging you, just curious.

Name them then?

jones,rashad,Machida,hendo,bader,gustafsson,davis,teixeira,thiago silva,king mo,chael

all beat him imo

 

[JKS]

Pride Shogun dismantled Rampage. 2012 brawling Shogun that no longer uses his kicks and knees effectively would not.

He's not really brawling. He throws very well timed punches, he was hitting Gus with his overhand right and hooks over and over. All it take is one punch to land and its over with Rampage. That overhand right is his best and most effective weapon, its his go to punch. He use to have more brawling style in Pride, now its more calculated.

 

[Mr. Hammer]

In a division with Machida, Gus, Rashad, Davis and Glover as other contenders. Shogun is always a contender.

Enough with speaking Glover in the same vein as people who have beaten half-decent competition. Steamrolling Kingsbury and Maldonado (who almost knocked Glover the f out) does not make you a contender. If he can beat Rampage then we can start talking about how he's up there with the other contenders. But he won't, his style is tailor-made for Rampage, and Rampage is a massive step up in competition from anybody he's ever fought.

 

[JKS]

Ugh. Because everyone ages exactly the same in combat sports, right? Because multiple surgeries on your destroyed knees shouldn't at all effect your mobility...I mean hell, the guy's still young. Injuries and 10 years of wars shouldn't have any bearing on physical attributes, right?

Do you understand the concept of "wear and tear", especially on a fighter who has had injuries to numerous major joints? He's been fighting pro for a DECADE. Several knee surgeries, man. Also, he had his arm broken in half. He's been around the world fighting a few times. Don't hold him up to unreasonable standards.

What wars??? He hasnt fought that many tough fights in his career, its the same thing with Nog. Everyone for some odd reason when he came to the UFC said he use to take damage and fought wars all the time. Its very much exaggerated.

 

[GordaoPreguico]

Opened the thread expecting to read that shogun went on a rampage knocking people out in the streets. Reading fail by me.

 

[Honestnathaniel]

Well not really wrong.....more of your opinions on him getting better or contending again. Just those 2 things I disagree with. And that he's taken a lot of damage, which he hasnt. Aside from two fights with Hendo and Jones.

How a fighters career changes is rather unpredictale, especially someone who is 31. There are many fighters that have more success and their best success later in their career. Shogun doesnt need to make drastic changes, just tune up a few things to make his game more effective.

And about his contendership. In a division like LHW a guy like Shogun is always within 2-3 fights of a title shot. Usually 2 wins does it. And its a dwindelling division considering Jones will be at HW by this time next year, Hendo is most likely goint to retire if he doesnt get the title shot or win the title (which I dont think he will) and Rampage is ending his contract with the UFC.

In a division with Machida, Gus, Rashad, Davis and Glover as other contenders. Shogun is always a contender.

Thats all fair enough, he could well turn it around with a new attitude and the right movements within the div. BUT when I watch the Shogun that fought Hendo and Gus as compared to the Shogun that fought Lyoto 1st time I dont see the same fighter at all. I see a fighter who has left alot of himself in the cage and has lost a step athletically for a variety of reasons. Tht being said he has an iron will and this is MMA so you never know. I hope he can make another run.

 

[Mr. Hammer]

He's not really brawling. He throws very well timed punches, he was hitting Gus with his overhand right and hooks over and over. All it take is one punch to land and its over with Rampage. That overhand right is his best and most effective weapon, its his go to punch. He use to have more brawling style in Pride, now its more calculated.

Ahahaha all it takes is one punch to put out Rampage huh? I'm not even going to humor that nonsense with a valid response.

 

[mawashi geri**]

Thats all fair enough, he could well turn it around with a new attitude and the right movements within the div. BUT when I watch the Shogun that fought Hendo and Gus as compared to the Shogun that fought Lyoto 1st time I dont see the same fighter at all. I see a fighter who has left alot of himself in the cage and has lost a step athletically for a variety of reasons. Tht being said he has an iron will and this is MMA so you never know. I hope he can make another run.

i disagree

the case with shogun is simple imo.

he is still improving slightley or staying the same but the division is improving multiple times as fast and this is causing him to lose ground

 

[JKS]

Enough with speaking Glover in the same vein as people who have beaten half-decent competition. Steamrolling Kingsbury and Maldonado (who almost knocked Glover the f out) does not make you a contender. If he can beat Rampage then we can start talking about how he's up there with the other contenders. But he won't, his style is tailor-made for Rampage, and Rampage is a massive step up in competition from anybody he's ever fought.

I'll tell you what, I agree with everything you say. Im not sold on Glover and think he is the weakest of the guys in terms of what he's proven. But im basing it more on style and ability and what he can do. I think he has the potential to beat those guys.

Thats what I named him last, cause i consider him on the outside. But he is a very well rounded good fighter. IM going back on forth on the Rampage fight, first impression was the Rampage would KO him. Now im undecided.

 

[JKS]

Thats all fair enough, he could well turn it around with a new attitude and the right movements within the div. BUT when I watch the Shogun that fought Hendo and Gus as compared to the Shogun that fought Lyoto 1st time I dont see the same fighter at all. I see a fighter who has left alot of himself in the cage and has lost a step athletically for a variety of reasons. Tht being said he has an iron will and this is MMA so you never know. I hope he can make another run.

I think his next fight will really dicate how his career goes. He loses, he defenitely takes a step back. If he wins, he remains in mix.

I just wish he got the hell out of his camp and moved to a more serious one.

 

[ABSthetics]

jones,rashad,Machida,hendo,bader,gustafsson,davis,teixeira,thiago silva,king mo,chael

all beat him imo

Good list. Until I see more from Tex and Chael's one time only LHW resurgence, I'm going to have to disagree with those. Bader also. I see him getting subbed rather easily.

Bader's MMA wrestling is pretty terrible. He's up there in shit MMA wrestling along with Munoz.

 

[Honestnathaniel]

i disagree

the case with shogun is simple imo.

he is still improving slightley or staying the same but the division is improving multiple times as fast and this is causing him to lose ground

The op pretty much covers my thoughts on this, im somewhat conflicted about Rua though. He's just very inconsistent, you never quite know which version will show up.

 

[Mikeyz]

He hasn't had it in a while

 

[CrashStitches]

What wars??? He hasnt fought that many tough fights in his career, its the same thing with Nog. Everyone for some odd reason when he came to the UFC said he use to take damage and fought wars all the time. Its very much exaggerated.

Besides his drawn-out battles with Rogerio, Hendo, the 1st Forrest fight, Overeem 2x (especially the 1st, where he almost got choked), the 2 Coleman fights (one where he got his arm mangled, and the other where he arguably lost the first 2 rounds), his drawn-out devasation by Jones, and his recent war vs Vera. You need more, bud?

I never understood why nuthuggers never think rationally about their favorite fighter. I'm an incurable, huge Herring fan, but I'm not going to lie and pretend he was truly elite. Why are you holding Shogun to unreasonable standards? The facts are that he's been fighting for a decade, he's had multiple injuries and surgically repaired major joints, has fought injured a few times, came up in the roughest camp of its era, and has been in some serious heavy brawls.

The only thing undeniable is that he's still dangerous to anyone at any point in the fight, but he can't live off his one-hit power forever, especially as he will slow more and continue to be damaged as he ages.

So, did I answer your question?

 

[ABSthetics]

He's not really brawling. He throws very well timed punches, he was hitting Gus with his overhand right and hooks over and over. All it take is one punch to land and its over with Rampage. That overhand right is his best and most effective weapon, its his go to punch. He use to have more brawling style in Pride, now its more calculated.

When the hell has Rampage been one shot KO'd? He got hit with everything but the kitchen sink before he got put down by anyone. You must have him confused with the guy in your AV.

Too much eggnog me'thinks

 

[Honestnathaniel]

I think his next fight will really dicate how his career goes. He loses, he defenitely takes a step back. If he wins, he remains in mix.

I just wish he got the hell out of his camp and moved to a more serious one.

Yes, if he moved to AKA for example and worked his wrestling/cardio with the likes of Cain, it would be very interesting to see. But veteran warriors like him are usually too comfortable and set in their ways to make a drastic change like that. Much like Penn.