Shoguns lost it.

Honestnathaniel said:
I think it has something to do with his knees, either that or he wont throw kicks because they require so much energy and he's worried about gassing.
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Your post pretty much sums up my thoughts about Shogun.

I've watched Shogun since MECA back in Brazil and you're probabl right, after those knee surgeries we don't see him throwing those nasty high and low kicks.

He plays the game like he's preserving his knees and accepts huge amounts of punishment to close in and land that overhand right wich you pointed out he's become dependant.

That's a fair statement he changed from a deadly Muai Thay striker to a brawler with a limited gas tank and wrestling abilities. I like him too but he probably won't go deep in the division unless he changes a lot like you said, wich he probably wont.
 
GuiSilva said:
Your post pretty much sums up my thoughts about Shogun.

I've watched Shogun since MECA back in Brazil and you're probabl right, after those knee surgeries we don't see him throwing those nasty high and low kicks.

He plays the game like he's preserving his knees and accepts huge amounts of punishment to close in and land that overhand right wich you pointed out he's become dependant.

That's a fair statement he changed from a deadly Muai Thay striker to a brawler with a limited gas tank and wrestling abilities. I like him too but he probably won't go deep in the division unless he changes a lot like you said, wich he probably wont.
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I have enough faith in him to believe he COULD change things up enough to make another run. But I dont know if his body will allow him to sadly.
 
Honestnathaniel said:
Its not like he has great level change takedowns, he ragdolled a tired Shogun in the clinch and mostly stayed in his guard. Silvas tdd was questionable in the past but he has worked on it and I really dont think that Gus would dominate him grappling wise long enough to win.
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shogun didn't looked "gassed" until the third, and gustafsson took him down in every round. also, you could probably attribute shogun's fatigue to the incredible amount of punishment he was enduring.

you're right that alex hasn't shown awesome single or double leg td's, but he's so creative with the way he transitions from striking to grappling, and getting the td when it's available, that i can see him hip tossing anderson or tripping him then getting on top and doing some damage.

the fact that he managed to get some significant gnp on shogun is also impressive. rua has shown the ability to get up vs anyone who's taken him down, and his bjj off his back is leagues ahead of anderson. the best silva could hope for would be to wrap the mauler up and hope the ref stands them up.
 
Bolshevik said:
typical, delusional shertard sipping the silva kool-aid. anderson is the best mw of all time, but he'd get his ass handed to him by the lhw elite.
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I'm just going to tell you its not Ed Soares mixing the Kool Aid its me.
 
Bolshevik said:
shogun didn't looked "gassed" until the third, and gustafsson took him down in every round. also, you could probably attribute shogun's fatigue to the incredible amount of punishment he was enduring.

you're right that alex hasn't shown awesome single or double leg td's, but he's so creative with the way he transitions from striking to grappling, and getting the td when it's available, that i can see him hip tossing anderson or tripping him then getting on top and doing some damage.

the fact that he managed to get some significant gnp on shogun is also impressive. rua has shown the ability to get up vs anyone who's taken him down, and his bjj off his back is leagues ahead of anderson. the best silva could hope for would be to wrap the mauler up and hope the ref stands them up.
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I think Andersons tdd is better than Shoguns at this point, Shogun almost looks like he doesnt care if he's taken down that at times. Not trying to discredit Gus, he DOES have creative takedowns and transitions between striking and grappling smoothly, but I dont see him being able to consistently ragdoll Anderson without absorbing some hard shots and risking himself. I doubt he passes Andersons guard or does much damage on the ground, he could concievably get a decision if he can stay on top for a round or two, but its unlikely imo.
 
faustian said:
Well 2-4 b/c Shogun won the first fight, but that aside, styles make fights and Machida is a good fight for a healthy Shogun.
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I'm a Shogun fan. There is no healthy Shogun anymore. At this point, Shogun may get finished by Machida. He would almost 100% certainly lose a decision, as Machida's mobility is unhindered compared to Shogun's bad wheels. Unless he lands that overhand again, he's getting beaten handily. Then every turd noob on here would scream how "overrated" Shogun was, and how Pride was weak, and all this garbage.
 
I don't know if anybody here agrees with me but Gus is not a top LH even though he is in that position right now.

He doesn't have terrific boxing, muai thay, wrestling or subs all I see is a young athletic guy with a good reach, naturally he wins fights because of that but I don't see any duscernible skill that would make him a champion or even close to that.

And back on point this just tells more about Shogun, he was able to hang in there, brawl, but looked terrible trying to land a bum overhand right over and over again slow as fuck trying to finish the fight with one punch.

In the old days he NEVER tried to force a knockout like that it always came naturally by him blasting his opponents with a combination of hands knee and kicks.

Gus, in my view, wont go past the really top guys when the time comes for him to face them, and Shogun will give us great wars to watch but he is not champion material anymore, thoughts ?
 
Bolshevik said:
because silva beat irvin, bonnar, and a forrest that already lost it? :rolleyes:

shogun would finish silva, probably in the first.
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1183019_o.gif
 
Honestnathaniel said:
So after the Gus fight I thought about Shogun and his place in the division.
He is in his 30's now and is unlikely to improve his game significantly from this point on, he's had multiple surgeries on his knees and it seems many of his weapons have been taken from him by the aforementioned injuries and age.
He has taken serious damage throughout his career and lately in particular, his style had reverted from a multifaceted striker to a very one dimensional slugger. He is over reliant on his big overhand, lacks the wrestling to consistently defend the takedown or fully implement a top game. His grappling is still dangerous but he lacks finishing ability with his subs and often leaves himself open on the mat, his cardio remains a major weakness and he is a step behind most modern fighters with his strength and conditioning programme it seems.
He could stick around as an upper level gatekeeper for a while IMO but I dont think we'll see him contend again, he's gone the way of Fedor and let the game pass him by, he's accomplished alot and given us great moments but he wont remain competitive unless he makes some serious changes.
Thoughts?
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Thoughts??? NOt much....half of what you said is right and half is wrong.

Whats there to say.
 
GuiSilva said:
I don't know if anybody here agrees with me but Gus is not a top LH even though he is in that position right now.

He doesn't have terrific boxing, muai thay, wrestling or subs all I see is a young athletic guy with a good reach, naturally he wins fights because of that but I don't see any duscernible skill that would make him a champion or even close to that.

And back on point this just tells more about Shogun, he was able to hang in there, brawl, but looked terrible trying to land a bum overhand right over and over again slow as fuck trying to finish the fight with one punch.

In the old days he NEVER tried to force a knockout like that it always came naturally by him blasting his opponents with a combination of hands knee and kicks.

Gus, in my view, wont go past the really top guys when the time comes for him to face them, and Shogun will give us great wars to watch but he is not champion material anymore, thoughts ?
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Gus doesnt have elite skills in any one area. But he is very good at everything, he has solid striking fundamentals, good wrestling offensively and defensively, uses his reach fairly well and has good cardio to boot. He wont be a champ imo but he is on his way to being an elite lhw and I think he'll be in the mix for a good while.
 
mawashi geri said:
shogun is not a top 10 fighter. there are at least ten lhw's that i would pick over him if they fought .

i have always thought this

he got a gifted tittle shot and proved to be a stylistic nightmare against machida. even though he did lose the first match.

not to take credit away form a former champ because that is impossible
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Name them then?

He'd beat Rampage, Bader, Lil Nog, Machida

Jon Jones, Gustafsson, Dan Hendo, maybe Phil Davis and Rashad because of the wrestling are the only ones I'd say would clearly beat him.
 
NetHazard said:
Lol what? How is 31 years old at all? He should be in his prime if anything.
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Ugh. Because everyone ages exactly the same in combat sports, right? Because multiple surgeries on your destroyed knees shouldn't at all effect your mobility...I mean hell, the guy's still young. Injuries and 10 years of wars shouldn't have any bearing on physical attributes, right?

Do you understand the concept of "wear and tear", especially on a fighter who has had injuries to numerous major joints? He's been fighting pro for a DECADE. Several knee surgeries, man. Also, he had his arm broken in half. He's been around the world fighting a few times. Don't hold him up to unreasonable standards.
 
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