Shingitai Jujitsu vs BJJ

Frodo said:
What's the difference between Shingitai and BJJ or even JKD? They seem to have identical mindsets if your description is accurate.
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Good question.

Shingitai is not just grappling but a total fighting system. Further, I'm not an SJ expert but its really just MMA. It was just developed before that term existed. Its not even a set style. For example, what asepcts of MT, TKD, Boxing, Judo, Wrestling, BJJ, Catch Wrestling etc are effective in a fight? Shingitai uses what is effective and discards the rest. They figured out what worked and what didn't by, well, fighting. Thats all, nothing earth shattering. It is constantly evolving, that is what is most important.

John Saylor developed this, I beleive, in the 80's & early 90's. Its what we know today as MMA, he just called it Shingitai JJ. But nothing is etched in stone, the whole philosophy is constant evolution, adaptation and growth. Also John was one of the head Judo coach's at the Oplympic Training Center so he has trained and learned from folks all over the world. Back in the 80's the Russians dominated us in many sports, some would it say it was b/c of their training methods. John adopted these methods into a strength and conditioning program that we incorporate into our total training system. Again, this isn't earth shattering, super secret stuff, just an effective S&C program that has proven to be very succesful at the Oplympic level.
 
BisonStorm said:
Good question.

Shingitai is not just grappling but a total fighting system. Further, I'm not an SJ expert but its really just MMA. It was just developed before that term existed. Its not even a set style. For example, what asepcts of MT, TKD, Boxing, Judo, Wrestling, BJJ, Catch Wrestling etc are effective in a fight? Shingitai uses what is effective and discards the rest. They figured out what worked and what didn't by, well, fighting. Thats all, nothing earth shattering. It is constantly evolving, that is what is most important.

John Saylor developed this, I beleive, in the 80's & early 90's. Its what we know today as MMA, he just called it Shingitai JJ. But nothing is etched in stone, the whole philosophy is constant evolution, adaptation and growth. Also John was one of the head Judo coach's at the Oplympic Training Center so he has trained and learned from folks all over the world. Back in the 80's the Russians dominated us in many sports, some would it say it was b/c of their training methods. John adopted these methods into a strength and conditioning program that we incorporate into our total training system. Again, this isn't earth shattering, super secret stuff, just an effective S&C program that has proven to be very succesful at the Oplympic level.
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Okay, now here's my POV:

How many Shingitai Schools are there in NJ? How about in total existence around the world?


BJJ is constantly doing the same thing. Evolving by getting rid of outdated techniques and replacing them with updated versions while incorporating cutting edge conditioning and training techniques. New transitions and counters and everything else are being developed every day, and the word spreads incredibly fast because they come out and get used in the competitions. This is a style with probably hundreds of thousands of people world wide adding and pushing the techniques forward including MANY olympic level athletes from styles like Judo, Wrestling, Sambo, etc adding their imput when they crosstrain. You have maybe a few hundred people doing the something similar with one olympic level coach, who probably occasionally brings in champions from other styles to help you out. It is mathematically impossible for you to keep up, especially when grappling isn't your sole focus. I don't understand how you think there is any comparison here unless you truly have no clue about BJJ and just listen to what the people at your school have told you. that is no way to base an opinion; go at least check out a BJJ academy first.
 
BisonStorm said:
Good question.

Shingitai is not just grappling but a total fighting system. Further, I'm not an SJ expert but its really just MMA. It was just developed before that term existed. Its not even a set style. For example, what asepcts of MT, TKD, Boxing, Judo, Wrestling, BJJ, Catch Wrestling etc are effective in a fight? Shingitai uses what is effective and discards the rest. They figured out what worked and what didn't by, well, fighting. Thats all, nothing earth shattering. It is constantly evolving, that is what is most important.

John Saylor developed this, I beleive, in the 80's & early 90's. Its what we know today as MMA, he just called it Shingitai JJ. But nothing is etched in stone, the whole philosophy is constant evolution, adaptation and growth. Also John was one of the head Judo coach's at the Oplympic Training Center so he has trained and learned from folks all over the world. Back in the 80's the Russians dominated us in many sports, some would it say it was b/c of their training methods. John adopted these methods into a strength and conditioning program that we incorporate into our total training system. Again, this isn't earth shattering, super secret stuff, just an effective S&C program that has proven to be very succesful at the Oplympic level.
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So basically he stole Bruce Lee's philosophy but was too egotistical to give him credit. So he repackaged it with his own name. At least the Gracies called it jiu-jitsu because they learned it when that was a synonym for judo. BTW, MMA existed before the 80s and 90s.
 
Mikey Triangles said:
Okay, now here's my POV:

How many Shingitai Schools are there in NJ? How about in total existence around the world?


BJJ is constantly doing the same thing. Evolving by getting rid of outdated techniques and replacing them with updated versions while incorporating cutting edge conditioning and training techniques. New transitions and counters and everything else are being developed every day, and the word spreads incredibly fast because they come out and get used in the competitions. This is a style with probably hundreds of thousands of people world wide adding and pushing the techniques forward including MANY olympic level athletes from styles like Judo, Wrestling, Sambo, etc adding their imput when they crosstrain. You have maybe a few hundred people doing the something similar with one olympic level coach, who probably occasionally brings in champions from other styles to help you out. It is mathematically impossible for you to keep up, especially when grappling isn't your sole focus. I don't understand how you think there is any comparison here unless you truly have no clue about BJJ and just listen to what the people at your school have told you. that is no way to base an opinion; go at least check out a BJJ academy first.
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It's not math though, more people do not always equal better and can even equal worse. Now it's likely true what you say, probably 99% likely, but it's kind of short sighted to say x has more people doing it so it will always be better. It only takes one visionary to change everything, isn't that supposed to be the story of BJJ anyway, and like 9 out of 10 martial arts styles. Not that I think this is the case here but we should all be open minded about it, if SJJ players start using some great new moves there is no reason for BJJ players not to adapt them just because they are biased.
 
LemonHerbWRX said:
It's not math though, more people do not always equal better and can even equal worse. Now it's likely true what you say, probably 99% likely, but it's kind of short sighted to say x has more people doing it so it will always be better. It only takes one visionary to change everything, isn't that supposed to be the story of BJJ anyway, and like 9 out of 10 martial arts styles. Not that I think this is the case here but we should all be open minded about it, if SJJ players start using some great new moves there is no reason for BJJ players not to adapt them just because they are biased.
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you'd have to be very ignorant to adopt the point of view that there aren't any Visionaries in BJJ taking it to the next level on a constant basis. BJJ started with a few visionaries, most notably Helio, and now has hundreds: Cobrinha, Roleta, Terere, Telles, Rigan, Rickson Leozinho, Andre Galvao, Lloyd Irvin, Saulo, and many more. Each one of these guys has their own take on BJJ, but it's still BJJ. Similar to the way the Ryu of JJJ were in the feudal era, but the feudal era is long gone now.
 
I am not saying there are not by any stretch, I mean I choose to spend my money on training BJJ for a reason. I am just saying that the argument that more people do X so that makes X better and will always make X better is bunk. It seems to me that there is a large community of very progressive minded people in the BJJ world that will keep it out in front for a while, people seem to have no trouble adopting techniques from any type of system so long as it works. But once people start being biased against stuff because of it's name or how it started is when you start slipping.
 
Mikey you said something in an earlier post about BJJ being all about the set ups and that is what provides your advantage over other grappling arts. I tend to agree. The times I have been in a BJJ school they put alot more emphasis on getting to here you want than what some other schools do. I think this is what seperates BJJ from JJJ.

I will say that the debate whether JJJ is superior to BJJ or vice versa will never end.

I look at Shingitai JJ as more of an association than a style. My instructor focuses very little on strikes and such and runs class alot more like a BJJ class. He isn't selling a system just teaching. Now what other schools do sounds like it varies.

Now if you look at it as an assocation as I do with some schools focusing on various aspects I think some of you "system" arguments lose their weight. I can't and will not defend Shingitai by itself because I have only trained at 2 of the schools and we all know that McDojo schools exist in all martial arts, But from the experience I have had the instructors I have dealt with and the students are both serious about what they do.
 
LemonHerbWRX said:
I am not saying there are not by any stretch, I mean I choose to spend my money on training BJJ for a reason. I am just saying that the argument that more people do X so that makes X better and will always make X better is bunk.
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Not as it relates to this case... I mean you can technically say that about any argument when you take it out of context like that, but in this case it's a strong argument and a valid point that has to be recognized by both parties.


It seems to me that there is a large community of very progressive minded people in the BJJ world that will keep it out in front for a while, people seem to have no trouble adopting techniques from any type of system so long as it works. But once people start being biased against stuff because of it's name or how it started is when you start slipping.
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Not necessarily true. If Shingitai actually does start ripping it up at competitions and rapidly growing then it will be recognized for it's accomplishments (like 10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu is recognized for it's accomplishments); however, as of right now they are talking a very big game and showing very little to back it up. IMO they have no ground to stand on with these current claims, that's all.
 
MIDMOBOX said:
Mikey you said something in an earlier post about BJJ being all about the set ups and that is what provides your advantage over other grappling arts. I tend to agree. The times I have been in a BJJ school they put alot more emphasis on getting to here you want than what some other schools do. I think this is what seperates BJJ from JJJ.
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I agree that this a big one, but it's not the only thing that really separates them. It's not all bad for JJJ though. they tend to focus more on Self-Defense and being well-rounded for that scenario.


I will say that the debate whether JJJ is superior to BJJ or vice versa will never end.
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maybe with the "deadly streets argument", but BJJ has already been proven vastly superior in various forms of competition. However, from what I've gathered Shingitai is more closely related to Judo than it is to JJJ, and Judo has also been proven vastly superior to JJJ in various forms of competition. As for BJJ and Judo, well that's a real argument. BJJ does have superior newaza, but Judo is better for the throws and grappling done on the feet.


I look at Shingitai JJ as more of an association than a style. My instructor focuses very little on strikes and such and runs class alot more like a BJJ class. He isn't selling a system just teaching. Now what other schools do sounds like it varies.

Now if you look at it as an association as I do with some schools focusing on various aspects I think some of you "system" arguments lose their weight. I can't and will not defend Shingitai by itself because I have only trained at 2 of the schools and we all know that McDojo schools exist in all martial arts, But from the experience I have had the instructors I have dealt with and the students are both serious about what they do.
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Here's another thing that generally separates BJJ from almost any other traditional style of martial arts (even Judo): consistency. I can tell you right now that I would absolutely vouch for any legitimate BJJ school because they are consistent throughout the style. Sure associations and schools within the associations are all different, and some are without a doubt better than others, but if any of them just suck I've found that it's been fraudulent 100% of the time, and usually it's a JJJ Black Belt trying to claim he's a Black Belt in BJJ also.

By the way this was an intelligent post, keep it up. maybe your team-mate can learn something from your example.
 
nefti said:
yes the ufc was designed to promote ufc but they also brought in the best fighter in the world at the time in ken shamrock. Who i ask, had more mma experience than ken shamrock in the world? Not Royce that's for sure.
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Actually the best fighters in the world were fighting Shooto in Japan at the time. The Gracies wouldn't fight there because the rules were no-gi only. The odds for success would have been severely different (even though many competitors already were studying BJJ). The initial UFCs were desighned to promote Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. They staked alot of money in it.

When Shamrock came over he had never grappled anyone with a gi and he got killed. The second fight was epic, Shamrck was more prepared the second time around. Gracie still won but was beaten up quite badly and coudn't continue the next fight. I think Royce won on toughness alone that fight. The Gracies are some of the toughest S.O.B.s around.

I have always wondered how the Gracies would have done in Shooto back then. I asume they would have done well but not as well as the early UFCs.
 
Mikey Triangles said:
Here's another thing that generally separates BJJ from almost any other traditional style of martial arts (even Judo): consistency. I can tell you right now that I would absolutely vouch for any legitimate BJJ school because they are consistent throughout the style. Sure associations and schools within the associations are all different, and some are without a doubt better than others, but if any of them just suck I've found that it's been fraudulent 100% of the time, and usually it's a JJJ Black Belt trying to claim he's a Black Belt in BJJ also.

By the way this was an intelligent post, keep it up. maybe your team-mate can learn something from your example.
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I understand what you mean by consistency, and the schools I have been at have provided quality training. However I know nothing of this NJ school. I couldn't find it on the SJJ website(page being updated) It is also clear to me that he is being instructed very differntly than I am on a daily basis.

So for me to state with out doubt any facts about his training would be impossible. It is obvious that Bisonstorm is happy in the school he is in, and feels strongly that in time his "team" will become a force. So I am happpy to let him. I understand the limitations which you discuss and your heart felt belif that BJJ is "the" grappling art. And I can't argue against that, BJJ is at the forefront of grappling arts in many ways. I don't think you can argue that my personal experience with SJJ has been postive either.

I don't have the opportunity to attend a BJJ school, the cost and travel would make routine training impossible. SJJ provides me an alternitive as it is local and low cost. However this is just one of my reason for the choices I make.

My instructor(Josh Henges) is from a judo background and although young he has competed internationally in Judo so I consider him legit in teaching what he teaches me. He is also a great guy and that means alot to me as well. He has also never claimed to be anyone that he is not although I know this happens in BJJ as well.
 
It seems the discussion has moved on but at the Good Fight the four SJJ guys competed under the team names Blitzkrieg & Advantage Combative Arts. The name of our school is Advantage MMA.
 
Shingitai Jujitsu is a system of Judo, Jujitsu, Sambo and a small portion of other systems. John Saylor created Shingitai in 1985 with the help of many people but mainly champion Sambo known Steve Scott. The name Shingitai comes from one of John Saylors coaches / jujitsu instructors who told him to always use the Shingitai method of training ( mind, body, and technique ). John Saylors background as anyone who researches him would find is first Judo, then Jujitsu, Sambo, Systema, and then research and study of other systems. John Saylor is very knowledgeable in what he teaches..... Mr. Saylor started teaching M.M.A before it became popular........ Now what is better

THIS IS JUST AN OPINION BUT HEY WE ARE ALL MARTIAL ARTIST.. THERE IS NOT A BEST ART OUT THERE. EACH SYSTEM HAS A WEAKNESS .. SOME MORE THAN OTHERS....... SHINGITAI IS A GREAT SYSTEM THAT HAS BEEN AROUND FOR A WHILE NOW, AND BJJ THE BEST SYSTEM IN THE WORLD FOR GROUND FIGHTING ...... WE ARE ALL IN THE GRAPPLING ARTS AND WE ALL USE PRETTY MUCH THE SAME MOVES ITS JUST THAT SHINGITAI TRAINS MORE THROWS AND TAKEDOWNS , AND MORE WITH LEG LOCKS ( SAMBO INFLUENCE ) AND BJJ TRAINS MORE FOR GROUND AND POUND AND GROUND FIGHTING .. NEITHER IS BETTER BUT MAY BE BETTER IN ONE AREA BECAUSE THEY TRAIN MORE IN THAT AREA...
 
perfweapon33 said:
Shingitai Jujitsu is a system of Judo, Jujitsu, Sambo and a small portion of other systems. John Saylor created Shingitai in 1985 with the help of many people but mainly champion Sambo known Steve Scott. The name Shingitai comes from one of John Saylors coaches / jujitsu instructors who told him to always use the Shingitai method of training ( mind, body, and technique ). John Saylors background as anyone who researches him would find is first Judo, then Jujitsu, Sambo, Systema, and then research and study of other systems. John Saylor is very knowledgeable in what he teaches..... Mr. Saylor started teaching M.M.A before it became popular........ Now what is better

THIS IS JUST AN OPINION BUT HEY WE ARE ALL MARTIAL ARTIST.. THERE IS NOT A BEST ART OUT THERE. EACH SYSTEM HAS A WEAKNESS .. SOME MORE THAN OTHERS....... SHINGITAI IS A GREAT SYSTEM THAT HAS BEEN AROUND FOR A WHILE NOW, AND BJJ THE BEST SYSTEM IN THE WORLD FOR GROUND FIGHTING ...... WE ARE ALL IN THE GRAPPLING ARTS AND WE ALL USE PRETTY MUCH THE SAME MOVES ITS JUST THAT SHINGITAI TRAINS MORE THROWS AND TAKEDOWNS , AND MORE WITH LEG LOCKS ( SAMBO INFLUENCE ) AND BJJ TRAINS MORE FOR GROUND AND POUND AND GROUND FIGHTING .. NEITHER IS BETTER BUT MAY BE BETTER IN ONE AREA BECAUSE THEY TRAIN MORE IN THAT AREA...
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way to revive a dead thread
 
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