SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB: WEEK 120: Eyes Wide Shut

[sickc0d3r]

It took maybe less than 10 minutes for him to arrive from gate to the hall where the ritual had just started. That’s a pretty slim timeframe to improvise a plan and instruct Mandy if William’s arrival came out of the blue. I doubt Zeigler was on security camera duty that night, so the word had to travel.

I admit, that his is getting very nitty-gritty from my part and is not at all in spirit of the movie.

Not sure I agree. If Ziegler is the guy who nodded at Bill, he seemed to be an important member. If security suspects an intruder they probably go right to someone like that and tell him. He could easily have told Mandy to warn him off, or told her to escort him and stall him while they set up their little tribunal, and she warned him off on her own. He was at the party a good long time before they brought him to the magick circle room, so they had time to gather and then summon him.

That said, I can also buy that Nightingale, or Ziegler via Nightingale, lured him there for some reason. Maybe Sandor is a powerful guy and wanted to turn Bill into one of their male hooker sex slaves so he can get to Alice.

 

[rearnakedchoke]

Wow. Just saw this thread. Love the movie, but these reviews are more than i can hope for.

Question. Does the daughter who calls Bill after her fathers death kiss mean anything? Always wondered about its significance.

 

[Yotsuya]

Not sure I agree. If Ziegler is the guy who nodded at Bill, he seemed to be an important member. If security suspects an intruder they probably go right to someone like that and tell him. He could easily have told Mandy to warn him off, or told her to escort him and stall him while they set up their little tribunal, and she warned him off on her own. He was at the party a good long time before they brought him to the magick circle room, so they had time to gather and then summon him.

William walked straight into the magick circle room after giving his coat and you could hear, that the ritual was already on when he entered the building. So William telling the password at gate + ride to the house + getting inside took maybe closer to 5 than 10 minutes. Even if Ziegler got beeped or something by the security right away it would be pretty damn close shave to figure out the situation and tell Mandy.

I had forgotten, that the nodding guy sent another nude cultist to hit on William and only then Mandy made her second appearance.

 

[sickc0d3r]

William walked straight into the magick circle room after giving his coat and you could hear, that the ritual was already on when he entered the building. So William telling the password at gate + ride to the house + getting inside took maybe closer to 5 than 10 minutes. Even if Ziegler got beeped or something by the security right away it would be pretty damn close shave to figure out the situation and tell Mandy.

I had forgotten, that the nodding guy sent another nude cultist to hit on William and only then Mandy made her second appearance.

Good point that the nod happened during the ritual already in progress. Certainly lends credence to the possibility he was expected.

 

[MusterX]

MusterX never let's a secret society reference slip by without putting his foot in the door and then pushing it open.

TBF to Muster I don't think there is any doubt that Kubrick used the idea of secret societies/illuminate as a theme.

Kubrick was a mastermind at times. Everything I've read about him says he had an obsessive attention to detail, every little piece of a scene had his fingerprint on it. So I don't think there is any doubt at all that he placed all these little obscure clues in his films for people to find. I read recently that his friends said he would still work on films 20 years after they were released to see if he could produce a better cut which is why some of his films have so many different versions.

For example, I don't think there is any way in fuck Kubrick accidentally took two extras from Ziegler's party and placed them dead center of frame in the last scene on the movie.

And then Helena looks back as she walks away with them around the corner.

Now, what does that mean? I'm not sure but its ominous and its no mistake. Kubrick would never make such a mistake IMO.

 

[MusterX]

"Knowing Kubrick’s attention to detail, the inclusion of the star of Ishtar in this party is not an accident. Ishtar is the Babylonian goddess of fertility, love, war and, mostly, sexuality. Her cult involved sacred prostitution and ritual acts – two elements we clearly see later in the movie.

“Babylonians gave Ishtar offerings of food and drink on Saturday. They then joined in ritual acts of lovemaking, which in turn invoked Ishtar’s favor on the region and its people to promote continued health and fruitfulness.”
– Goddess Ishtar, Anita Revel

Ishtar herself was considered to be the “courtesan of the gods” and had many lovers. While inspired in bed, she was also cruel to the men that got attached to her. These concepts will constantly reappear in the movie, especially with Alice.

During the party, Bill and Alice go their separate ways and are both faced with temptation. Alice meets a man named Sandor Szavost who asks her about Ovid’s Art of Love. This series of books, written during the times of Ancient Rome, was essentially a “How to Cheat on Your Partner” guide, and was popular with the elite of the time. The first book opens with an invocation to Venus – the planet esoterically associated with lust. Interestingly enough, Ishtar (and her equivalents in other Semitic cultures) was considered to be the personification of Venus."

Maybe Alice is the object of their worship. Her knowledge and awareness is certainly goddess-like.

That is the thing that is blowing my mind with Kubrick and this film. The layered meanings seem unusually deep. I had this dual meaning discussion with @Tufts about the cover art being one eye symbolism of the Iluminati while also being the state of Bill and Alice's relationship, Alice looking outside the marriage, Bill focused on Alice.

Now this thing with the 8 pointed stars. They are stars of Ishtar, also known as stars of Venus. Both Ishtar and Venus are goddesses of sex and war, among other things. If Alice = Ishtar, then the cult = Venus. You dig what I'm saying? That's what we see at the ritual. Statues of Venus all over the place.

Think those aren't statues of Venus. Read this.

The planet Venus was known to the ancients as the “Light Bearer” because Venus appears in the sky each morning before the sun rises. In ancient Greco-Roman mythology Venus was the goddess of love, sexuality, and procreation. The goddess Venus, the “Light Bearer” was called Luc-ferre, or Lucifer in Latin.

Those statues are actually holding the light up.....the light bearer. A.K.A. Lucifer. I just don't think there is any chance Kubrick put all this stuff in by chance. Of course you know what this means though right? If Alice = Ishtar, the focus of the cult or the head bitch, the entire thing is WAY more sinister. Especially the last scene with Helena walking away with the men from Ziegler's party.

 

[Tufts]

Wow. Just saw this thread. Love the movie, but these reviews are more than i can hope for.

Question. Does the daughter who calls Bill after her fathers death kiss mean anything? Always wondered about its significance.

To me it was just another step in the journey of temptation that he embarked on that night....she also epitomized what Alice accused him of experiencing, women he saw during his practice hitting on him. I also thought it was a classic case of transference where after experiencing extreme loss, she turned to an authority figure for comfort.

 

[sickc0d3r]

That is the thing that is blowing my mind with Kubrick and this film. The layered meanings seem unusually deep. I had this dual meaning discussion with @Tufts about the cover art being one eye symbolism of the Iluminati while also being the state of Bill and Alice's relationship, Alice looking outside the marriage, Bill focused on Alice.

Now this thing with the 8 pointed stars. They are stars of Ishtar, also known as stars of Venus. Both Ishtar and Venus are goddesses of sex and war, among other things. If Alice = Ishtar, then the cult = Venus. You dig what I'm saying? That's what we see at the ritual. Statues of Venus all over the place.

Think those aren't statues of Venus. Read this.

The planet Venus was known to the ancients as the “Light Bearer” because Venus appears in the sky each morning before the sun rises. In ancient Greco-Roman mythology Venus was the goddess of love, sexuality, and procreation. The goddess Venus, the “Light Bearer” was called Luc-ferre, or Lucifer in Latin.

Those statues are actually holding the light up.....the light bearer. A.K.A. Lucifer. I just don't think there is any chance Kubrick put all this stuff in by chance. Of course you know what this means though right? If Alice = Ishtar, the focus of the cult or the head bitch, the entire thing is WAY more sinister. Especially the last scene with Helena walking away with the men from Ziegler's party.

Whoa, you forced me to dig some more into Ishtar and see what else I could turn up.

Here's an interesting description. Sound like anyone we know?
" Ishtar is frequently described applying cosmetics and enhancing her appearance before undertaking battle, or before meeting a lover. Much as a male warrior may put on a breast plate before a fight, Ishtar lines her eyes with mascara. She’s the original power-dresser: her enrichment of her beauty and her choice of clothes accentuate her potency."

Her lover was this guy:
"Tammuz, like Osiris of Egypt, was an agricultural deity, and as the Babylonian harvest was the gift of the rivers, it is probable that one of his several forms was Dumu-zi-abzu, "Tammuz of the Abyss". He was also "the child", "the heroic lord", "the sentinel", "the healer", and the patriarch who reigned over the early Babylonians for a considerable period."

"Tammuz, like the Egyptian lunar and solar god Khonsu, is "the healer", and Agni "drives away all disease".

Ishtar is also said to have banished Tammuz to Hades for sitting on her throne, apparently not caring about her own descent to the underworld. She later forgave him and brought him back for half the year, thus creating the seasons spring (when he returned) and winter (when he was in Hades). Note this movie takes place in the winter. Maybe Bill going to the ritual represents his descent to Hades as a punishment?

 

[MusterX]

To me it was just another step in the journey of temptation that he embarked on that night....she also epitomized what Alice accused him of experiencing, women he saw during his practice hitting on him. I also thought it was a classic case of transference where after experiencing extreme loss, she turned to an authority figure for comfort.

Also when she loses her father and then decides she loves Bill, it makes Bill the equivalent of the serviceman that Alice wanted. I think Bill recoiled from this a little bit because of that very reason. Bill really was truthful when he told Alice that he had no interest in his patients, that it was a professional relationship. Stlll though, seems like a lot of work for Kubrick to go through just for that one little scene. Just more in a series of temptations but even the idea of temptation bothers me because Kubrick didn't have to produce an entire satanic cult to tempt Bill and Alice. Seems odds right? "Hey Stanley lets make a film about Bill and Alice and their marital problems." Stanley: 'Fine but I get to put a devil sex cult in it."

This is Wednesday and we've run out of time. This film probably needs more than a week. What a great movie.

 

[therealdope]

And then Helena looks back as she walks away with them around the corner.

Now, what does that mean? I'm not sure but its ominous and its no mistake. Kubrick would never make such a mistake IMO.

This last pic kind of adds fuel to the fire that Alice is in the group sex ring, while Billy-bob is clueless.

 

[MusterX]

This last pic kind of adds fuel to the fire that Alice is in the group sex ring, while Billy-bob is clueless.

Yea its kinda messed up. To really add fuel to the fire, right before Helena walks away behind the men she walks by a "Magic Circle" game, further indicating that the cult is still around and are a part of this scene.

 

[therealdope]

Full disclosure, I am not a deep thinker when it comes to movies -- certainly not to the level of people ITT.

I only watched EWS once in the theater when it was released. I liked it. I always assumed that the illuminati/secret society thing was THE major theme of the movie. The idea that these people operate outside the law, are into debauchery (who isn't!), and that they manipulate the lives of others. I also thought it was obvious that Bill was set up and that Alice was getting slammedlike the screen door in a wind storm at these parties on the regular.

Ziegler was obviously in the secret society and at the Long Island party --- or it least it was blatantly hinted. THe Hungarian at the X-mas party as well.

The two girls at the X-mas party who talk about the rainbow room, may or may not have been part of the ritual at the mansion on Long Island but they were definitely in on the set up of Bill.

Here is the part that i don't think anyone has commented on. What was up with the side plot of the costume guy and Leelee Sobeiski? And the two Asians. I have a buddy who interned at production houses in the 90s and he read just about every script that got made --- and he had no clue what was up with that side plot. Anyone have an idea? Anyone, anyone Bueller?

 

[MusterX]

Whoa, you forced me to dig some more into Ishtar and see what else I could turn up.

Here's an interesting description. Sound like anyone we know?
" Ishtar is frequently described applying cosmetics and enhancing her appearance before undertaking battle, or before meeting a lover. Much as a male warrior may put on a breast plate before a fight, Ishtar lines her eyes with mascara. She’s the original power-dresser: her enrichment of her beauty and her choice of clothes accentuate her potency."

Her lover was this guy:
"Tammuz, like Osiris of Egypt, was an agricultural deity, and as the Babylonian harvest was the gift of the rivers, it is probable that one of his several forms was Dumu-zi-abzu, "Tammuz of the Abyss". He was also "the child", "the heroic lord", "the sentinel", "the healer", and the patriarch who reigned over the early Babylonians for a considerable period."

"Tammuz, like the Egyptian lunar and solar god Khonsu, is "the healer", and Agni "drives away all disease".

Ishtar is also said to have banished Tammuz to Hades for sitting on her throne, apparently not caring about her own descent to the underworld. She later forgave him and brought him back for half the year, thus creating the seasons spring (when he returned) and winter (when he was in Hades). Note this movie takes place in the winter. Maybe Bill going to the ritual represents his descent to Hades as a punishment?

Yea shit is deep. I really wish we had more members of the club comment on this film. I would add that I was looking at these ancient Babylonian and Egyptian gods we are talking about and noticed that the brother of Osiris or son of Isis is none other than Horace (Horus).

In early Egypt, Horus was the brother of Isis, Osiris, Set and Nephthys. As different cults formed, he became the son of Isis and Osiris. Isis remained the sister of Osiris, Set and Nephthys.

Spoiler

 

[MusterX]

The two girls at the X-mas party who talk about the rainbow room, may or may not have been part of the ritual at the mansion on Long Island but they were definitely in on the set up of Bill.

Here is the part that i don't think anyone has commented on. What was up with the side plot of the costume guy and Leelee Sobeiski? And the two Asians. I have a buddy who interned at production houses in the 90s and he read just about every script that got made --- and he had no clue what was up with that side plot. Anyone have an idea? Anyone, anyone Bueller?

Yea I commented on it but you probably aren't going to like it. This from earlier in the thread.

The two girls at the first party asked Bill, "don't you want to go where the rainbow ends?" The girl named Nuala, played by Stewart Thorndike was particularly stunning.

The two girls are obviously part of the cult and when they ask Cruise if he wants to go where the rainbow ends its a specific reference to The Wizard of Oz. Later in the film, the costume shop was called Rainbow with a caption that says "under the rainbow" instead of over the rainbow like in the classic song.

Look at this shot of Cruise under the rainbow. He is getting his costume to go exactly where the girls asked him if he wanted to go.

In conspiracy circles The Wizard of Oz and the rainbow is often a reference to pedophilia and has been connected by various people to MKULTRA, mind control and sexual abuse. Frank Baum, the author of The Wizard of Oz was a member of the Theosophical Society which is an occult religion/secret society. The Theosophical Society was founded by occultist H.P. Blavatsky who wrote a periodical called Lucifer. Later on Lucifer Publishing changed their name to Lucis Trust and became the publishing company for the United Nations. You could not make this shit up, the publishing company for the U.N. is Lucifer Publishing. The connections between the Thesophical Society, Frank Baum, The Wizard of Oz, and Stanley Kubrick's Eyes Wide Shut is evident. If that isn't enough to convince you, the owner of the Rainbow costume shop was selling his underage daughter, the very thing that CT'ers say the rainbow indicates.

 

[therealdope]

Yea I commented on it but you probably aren't going to like it. This from earlier in the thread.

The two girls at the first party asked Bill, "don't you want to go where the rainbow ends?" The girl named Nuala, played by Stewart Thorndike was particularly stunning.

The two girls are obviously part of the cult and when they ask Cruise if he wants to go where the rainbow ends its a specific reference to The Wizard of Oz. Later in the film, the costume shop was called Rainbow with a caption that says "under the rainbow" instead of over the rainbow like in the classic song.

Look at this shot of Cruise under the rainbow. He is getting his costume to go exactly where the girls asked him if he wanted to go.

In conspiracy circles The Wizard of Oz and the rainbow is often a reference to pedophilia and has been connected by various people to MKULTRA, mind control and sexual abuse. Frank Baum, the author of The Wizard of Oz was a member of the Theosophical Society which is an occult religion/secret society. The Theosophical Society was founded by occultist H.P. Blavatsky who wrote a periodical called Lucifer. Later on Lucifer Publishing changed their name to Lucis Trust and became the publishing company for the United Nations. You could not make this shit up, the publishing company for the U.N. is Lucifer Publishing. The connections between the Thesophical Society, Frank Baum, The Wizard of Oz, and Stanley Kubrick's Eyes Wide Shut is evident. If that isn't enough to convince you, the owner of the Rainbow costume shop was selling his underage daughter, the very thing that CT'ers say the rainbow indicates.

I'm fine with the costume place owner selling his daughter but was he necessarily connected to the cult? Maybe they were just good customers. And what the fuck with the daughter running around and the two old asian guys -- they couldn't have been in the secret society, they just looked like two dirty old men. Just seems like the costume store owner stuff was random. Maybe Kubrick never got a chance to edit that part properly and someone else did it.

 

[therealdope]

played by Stewart Thorndike was particularly stunning.

A lesbian. NTTTIAWWT

 

[MusterX]

A lesbian. NTTTIAWWT

I don't know what NTTTIAWWT means but she was a smoke show in eyes wide shut. This is what she looks like now compared to the movie. Professional make up, hair and clothing does wondrous things.

 

[therealdope]

I don't know what NTTTIAWWT means but she was a smoke show in eyes wide shut. This is what she looks like now compared to the movie. Professional make up, hair and clothing does wondrous things.

Not That There Is Anything Wrong With That (Seinfeld-ism)

 

[PubliusVentidius]

Damn this movie really brings the wacko bible thumpers out of the woodwork.

 

[Project 2501]

Anyone here from the LA area? Beyondfest just announced a fantastic David Cronenberg line up.