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Movies Serious Movie Discussion

Hey @chickenluver , have you seen The King yet? I thought it was pretty damn good. For a historical epoch I loved the calm pacing and somewhat naturalistic cinematography and characters. The end was
actually thematically kind of similar to Animal Kingdom.

I’ll try to watch Welles’ Falstaff finally this week.
 
Just got back from watching Knives Out and yeah its a fun little who done it, maybe somewhat over dependant on explanation at the end but then again I spose not too different from the Agatha Christine stuff its following.

Jojo Rabbit seems to have a later release here in the UK.

Agreed. I thought the plot structure was a little unusual and my interest in the mystery kind of came and went throughout, but the dark humour actually kept me engaged. Craig's twang took some getting used to and the cast was so stuffed with talent that I felt like I didn't see enough of most of the characters.

Marriage Story was a tricky one too. Overall I think it accomplished what it set out to do, but a few parts were so difficult for me to buy into that I wasn't actually affected the way I expected to be by the time it was over. It was a smoother watch than I expected but something about how Driver's character was either written or acted just didn't do it for me.

Both were strong films in their own right, maybe 7.5-8/10, but nothing has pleased me so thoroughly as Jojo so far.
 
Agreed. I thought the plot structure was a little unusual and my interest in the mystery kind of came and went throughout, but the dark humour actually kept me engaged. Craig's twang took some getting used to and the cast was so stuffed with talent that I felt like I didn't see enough of most of the characters.

Probably my main criticism of it would be that the plot ultimately only depended on a handful of characters, the rest of the family had basic motivations added but really didn't link into the mystery much.
Marriage Story was a tricky one too. Overall I think it accomplished what it set out to do, but a few parts were so difficult for me to buy into that I wasn't actually affected the way I expected to be by the time it was over. It was a smoother watch than I expected but something about how Driver's character was either written or acted just didn't do it for me.

Both were strong films in their own right, maybe 7.5-8/10, but nothing has pleased me so thoroughly as Jojo so far.

I do think its a film that makes a lot of assumptions about people feeling some kind of connection to these arty New York bohemian types. Not just in terms of the setting but actually making the film about their obcessions unlike say Synecdoche Newyork that used it for less specific reasons.

Again I think stuff like Blue Valentine/Warmest colour do obviously come to mind as similar kinds of stories showing a relationship collapsing but they feature characters that most of the audience probably have a much easier time relating to. Maybe you could argue that this is a case of films reaching a similar kind of destination from quite different directions? those films I think naturally follow the euro arthouse style of directors like Kieślowski, building atmosphere and playing the drama up for absolutely maximum empathy. This on the other hand is coming from more of a Woody Allen like US direction, more sidelong in its drama and more humour, indeed to bring up another Blue it reminds me rather of his Blue Jasmine in style if not story.
 
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Hey @chickenluver , have you seen The King yet? I thought it was pretty damn good. For a historical epoch I loved the calm pacing and somewhat naturalistic cinematography and characters. The end was
actually thematically kind of similar to Animal Kingdom.

I’ll try to watch Welles’ Falstaff finally this week.




I would say that the King was one of those movies that worked on a micro level but not a macro level. The individual scenes were often splendid. However, I didn't buy the overarching character-arch for King Henry that the film so dependent on. In the end, we're supposed to believe that he has turned into this authorial monarchical figure that he so didn't want to become before a sexy French Princess pulls the wool from over his eyes. It didn't seem believable that witnessing a few underage camp-followers get murdered by a wacky French prince would brutalize him to such a degree that he would go "royal power is great!" before someone points out to him that it's not. If anything, given his personality, it seems more likely that it should only further disgust him with the nature of warfare and statecraft. Chimes at Midnight sort of did an more interesting twist on the King Henry character, in that regard.

The film had a fantastical use of language though, forsaking the Shakespeare poetry and instead creating something pseudo-historic that really conjures a sense of verisimilitude for the era. A lot of the fighting also had a high quality of genuineness to it, like them using daggers or war-hammers to get through knightly armour, instead of just slicing right through it with swords or arrowheads like you see in a lot of historical films.

I watched the flick with my dad. He thought that evil French Prince was the best part of the movie. I thought that it was the worst. It felt like a bad joke transported into a serious film. A maniacal cackling villain in a movie that really didn't fit those tropes.
 
However, I didn't buy the overarching character-arch for King Henry that the film so dependent on. In the end, we're supposed to believe that he has turned into this authorial monarchical figure that he so didn't want to become before a sexy French Princess pulls the wool from over his eyes. It didn't seem believable that witnessing a few underage camp-followers get murdered by a wacky French prince would brutalize him to such a degree that he would go "royal power is great!" before someone points out to him that it's not. If anything, given his personality, it seems more likely that it should only further disgust him with the nature of warfare and statecraft.
The princess plot was rushed, but I didn’t think Henry’s arc was implausible at all. That guy was under heavy pressure from every direction and bit of a mess anyways, so he needed someone like Falstaff to keep him grounded. Giving the order for execution of the French prisoners after Falstaff’s death was one of the most striking moments of the movie.

Whacky prince was a bit over the top for a realistic villain, but he was supposed to be the French equivalent of Henry’s father, so it was somewhat balanced choise to make him that wicked.
 
I’ve been getting into Sam Peckinpah (sp)?

His movie with Dustin Hoffman was weird as shit
 
How goes it, SMD folk? Nice to see you guys are still at it. Hopefully, I'll put up a better average than one post per term, but I figured that some of you might appreciate film class recaps from me, so here it goes.

This past term, I taught two classes at two different institutions. The first class was a broad film history elective entitled "History of Cinema II: 1945-1975." The second class was an upper-level undergrad film school class entitled "Cinema Analysis and Criticism." I'm going to start with History of Cinema II. For that class, as I mentioned a while back, I laid out the term as follows (with some deviations from my original syllabus posted in here):

Week 1 - American Cinema in the 1940s - The Best Years of Our Lives (1946)
Week 2 - Italian Neorealism - I Vitelloni (1953)
Week 3 - American Cinema in the 1950s - On the Waterfront (1954)
Week 4 - Postwar Japanese Cinema - Fires on the Plain (1959)
Week 5 - Ingmar Bergman: Authorship and the Arthouse - The Virgin Spring (1960)
Week 6 - French New Wave - Last Year at Marienbad (1961)
Week 7 - American Cinema in the 1960s - Midnight Cowboy (1969)
Week 8 - Britain on the Brink - Get Carter (1971)
Week 9 - Hong Kong Martial Arts Cinema - Fist of Fury (1972)
Week 10 - American Cinema in the 1970s - The Getaway (1972)

Each week, I would zero-in on one or two historically important occurrences, an important genre, etc., so that the lectures wouldn't just feel like me rattling off names and titles. So, for Week 1, I focused on WWII, the "Hollywood war effort," and the collaborations between William Wyler and Gregg Toland (Orson Welles got the shaft this week, though I did show a clip from Citizen Kane because, you know, it's Citizen Kane). Surprisingly, the whole class loved The Best Years of Our Lives. I figured there was no sense easing into shit, so I just threw a three-hour black-and-white movie at them, and they all enjoyed the hell out of it.

However, much to my surprise and I'm sure to your surprise, as well, @chickenluver, the whole class FUCKING HATED I Vitelloni. I'm pretty sure you were the one who mentioned how you thought that was a good Italian cinema pick that'd be palatable and enjoyable for the students. I thought the same thing. We couldn't have been more wrong. The kicker was Fausto. They hated him so violently that it soured the whole experience for them. And, to make matters worse, during my lecture I showed them two clips from The Bicycle Thieves, which I was thinking about having for the screening, and afterwards they all agreed that they loved those clips and wished they could've watched that instead of I Vitelloni. It wasn't all for naught, though. For myself, in preparation for the week, I rewatched a bunch of Fellini's movies. I still think that both La Dolce Vita and 8 1/2 go beyond being overrated to being genuinely bad films. However, I like I Vitelloni even more now; I now think that Nights of Cabiria is even better than La Strada, which dropped off a bit in my estimation upon rewatching it; and Amarcord might just be my new favorite Fellini movie, possibly even nudging I Vitelloni out of the top spot.

Moving on, for Week 3, I focused on the influence of communism in Hollywood during the 1950s and the popularity of "social problem" films and the rise of sci-fi movies. For the screening, I used On the Waterfront to catch both the social problem and the communism angles as well as to introduce Method acting ahead of Midnight Cowboy. Again, I was pleasantly surprised at how much the class loved it. I can't imagine Brando ever not resonating, and it was encouraging to find that, as of 2019, Terry Malloy still has the power to captivate.

For Week 4, I was originally planning on having them watch The Burmese Harp, but I switched things up and had them watch Fires on the Plain because it was easier for them to watch on their own (it was streaming on Kanopy). No surprise, they thought that it was incredibly dark and dour, but they all connected to the movie and the main character and, if they didn't enjoy the experience, at least found it engaging and interesting. And for me personally, I loved getting the chance to revisit Ichikawa. The Burmese Harp is an absolutely beautiful film, but rewatching Fires on the Plain, I'm now having a hard time picking which one is better. The former is easier and more enjoyable to watch, but the latter is such an amazing trek into the darkest recesses of humanity when pushed to the most extreme edges of survival. Plus, I had no recollection of how aesthetically rich the film was. I also took the opportunity, for the sake of my lecture, to revisit Ozu and Mizoguchi, and I am firmly in the Mizoguchi>Ozu camp. Kurosawa is a CLEAR #1 as far as Japanese cinema goes, but in the battle for #2, Mizoguchi trounces Ozu. Aside from Ugetsu - which I did rewatch and appreciated more this time around even if I still think it's vastly overrated - and Sansho the Bailiff - which IMO is so clearly his best film and just an amazing film all the way around - I watched two of his early 1930s films that I'd never seen before and that sort of set the table for The Life of Oharu. First, I watched Osaka Elegy, which I thoroughly enjoyed, and then I watched Sisters of the Gion, which, while "rougher" than his more mature The Life of Oharu, I actually prefer. As for Ozu, I really have no use for him. It took him until his last fucking movie, An Autumn Afternoon, to make something worth a shit, and even that movie isn't anything spectacular. I rewatched some of his greatest hits and they're just so fucking dull. Tokyo Story might be my new pick for the most overrated movie ever made, at least in scholarly circles where everybody jizzes all over that horrendously boring turd.

For the Bergman week, I honestly used this as an excuse to get my hands on that amazing Criterion collection. Hot damn is that an amazing collection. There were multiple titles in there that I'd never seen before. I fucking LOVE the movie The Devil's Eye. Right before he embarked on his Silence of God trilogy and spent all of the 1960s in Godardian modernist territory, he made a lovely, funny, and sharp romantic saga featuring Don Juan in Hell being sent back to Earth by Satan to seduce the virginal Bibi Andersson before her wedding. I also loved getting to rewatch Bergman's early pre-Smiles of a Summer Night catalogue. No disrespect to Harriet Andersson, who in Sawdust and Tinsel is especially gorgeous, but I'm on team Maj-Britt Nilsson. I had COMPLETELY forgotten about Summer Interlude, but that might be my personal favorite early Bergman flick, mainly due to how much I love Nilsson in it but also because it's just such a small yet profound disquisition on time and memory in the context of love. Anyway, for the class, I originally had them down to watch Through a Glass Darkly, but, again, The Virgin Spring was on Kanopy, so I called an audible. It ended up where some of the students watched one and others watched the other. I told them whichever one was easier, I didn't really care. The ones who watched The Virgin Spring really dug it, and one of them asked me, "Did Wes Craven know that this movie existed or is Last House on the Left just a coincidence?" The ones who watched Through a Glass Darkly, on the other hand, just had "WTF?" reactions. But it was fun spending the week on Bergman.

Moving to the French New Wave, I showed them a good line-up of clips, but when it came to the screening, I didn't want to go the standard Truffaut/Godard route, so I went Last Year at Marienbad courtesy of @HenryFlower. I wasn't surprised to hear that most of them didn't exactly care for it, but I was happy with the discussion, as they clearly watched it very intently (one of the girls in the class was even trying to teach her classmates Nim when I showed up), and one of the students said it was her favorite film of the class while another one said that a few weeks after the screening and being unable to get the movie out of his head he rewatched it and liked it more. Even so, in the future if I teach this particular class again I might use a different film still beyond the Truffaut/Godard route and which can still open the door to the modernist stuff. I'm thinking I might swap Last Year at Marienbad for Play Time, if for no other reason to justify picking this sucker up: http://cup.columbia.edu/book/play-time/9780231193030

Back to 'Merica, I decided I'd split the 1960s and 1970s lectures up between sex and violence. I focused on Natalie Wood in the lecture, showing clips from Love with the Proper Stranger and Bob & Carol & Ted & Alice, and then had them watch Midnight Cowboy. They all loved Dustin Hoffman, which wasn't a surprise, but a few of them said that they hated Jon Voight. That was a surprise to me, because I not only love Jon Voight in general but I really love Joe Buck in particular. He's such a great dumb guy, just a doofus with a heart so much bigger than his brain.

Then we hopped across the pond to jolly old England. This was the most fun week for me personally because I watched A LOT of stuff I'd never seen before. First, I watched two of the most famous British black comedies, Kind Hearts and Coronets and The Ladykillers, both of which I thoroughly enjoyed, the former especially. If there's a better British black comedy, I want to know it, because fucking hell was that dry, dark, and hilarious. In the lecture, I showed an extended clip of the first Alec Guinness he kills. That's one of the most comedically brilliant murders in the history of cinema. Then I watched some British New Wave stuff, sticking mainly with Tony Richardson. I watched Look Back in Anger, A Taste of Honey, and The Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner, none of which I'd ever seen before and all of which I enjoyed to various degrees. Then I rewatched Alfie, which is an absolutely insane movie, used the lecture as an excuse to rewatch Blithe Spirit, which is just such a fun time at the movies to say nothing of the spectacular color cinematography, and then, the capper, I finally crossed off a movie that'd long been on my "to see" list: Lindsay Anderson's If.... I'd known about it ever since I first saw A Clockwork Orange and I'd always planned on getting around to it for Malcolm McDowell if for no other reason, but I just never did. Now, I'm glad I finally got to it. What a weird, sort of beautiful, mostly disconcerting movie. I showed the clip where they skip out on the rugby match and go into town, steal the motorcycle, and pick up the girl at the diner, and the whole class was speechless as to WTF they just watched. However, on the last day of class, when we were just shooting the shit and talking about all the clips and screenings, one kid asked me, "What was that movie you showed the clip of where it went from color to black-and-white and the people having sex were growling?" I had to laugh at that description, but I was also happy that If... had made an impression on at least one of them. For the screening, though, I had to go with Get Carter. And @europe1, you will be pleased to know that I gave them the extra credit option of also watching and writing about the Stallone remake, and of the three kids who availed themselves of that option, it was 2-1 in favor of the original.

The Bruce Lee week - I mean, the Hong Kong martial arts cinema week - was kind of a bummer, as we had a huge blizzard and only like a third of the class was there for the lecture. But the screening was Fist of Fury and it was a ton of fun talking about Bruce Lee and listening to kids who'd never seen a Bruce Lee movie before talk about their experience. I also showed a clip during my lecture of Angela Mao kicking ass in Hapkido and for her final paper one girl actually wrote about Hapkido. When your job includes reading kids talking about Angela Mao and Bruce Lee, you know life doesn't get much better.

And then we capped things off with Steve McQueen for a Bruce Lee-Steve McQueen one-two punch. Two of the guys in my class said that The Getaway was their favorite movie of the term, but I was surprised that a few people really didn't dig it. Even so, it made for really good discussion.

I also had them write some papers and it was a blast reading them writing about stuff like Dr. Strangelove, Them!, The Third Man, The Great Escape, Detective Story, etc. Just an all around fun class with students who were surprisingly gung ho for this many black-and-white and even foreign films.

As for my advanced film school class, that was literally the most fun that I've ever had. The way that class is structured: There are three "units" at the end of which the students have a big paper to write. The first unit is Aesthetic Analysis, the second unit is Ideological Analysis, and the third unit is a Research Paper. As the professor, I pick the three movies for each unit, and then each unit is comprised of a screening, a film analysis, and a scholarship analysis day. The discussions were amazing, their papers were great, and I even found myself learning new things. For the Aesthetic Analysis unit, I selected Taxi Driver, and holy shit is that one of the aesthetically richest movies ever made. I always thought that, hence my selecting it for that unit, but watching it and analyzing it in-depth with a room full of film school students gave me a TOTALLY different perspective and it's a legit aesthetic masterclass. For the Ideological Analysis unit, I selected The Fountainhead. Watching that movie with all of them is now one of my top five favorite moviegoing experiences. They were so vocal, cracking up at different scenes, sometimes for intentional humor, other times for unintentional humor. And the discussion weeks were so fun and intense that on one of the days when we took a break one of the kids joked on his way out of the classroom, "That discussion was so intense I'm actually sweating!" It was also a lot of fun reading their essays. One student would pick one scene and talk about how ridiculous and insane it is, another student would be talking about the exact same scene and would talk about how moving and profound it is. The exact experience that I was hoping for with that pick was the experience that played out. And then, for the Research Paper, I picked The Dark Knight Rises and we dug into the political make-up of the film (specifically its connections to the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, Occupy Wall Street, and post-truth/fake news), its relation to Nolan's filmography, and its relation to other Batman and superhero films.

Looking ahead, I have a light Winter teaching load at present - just one general Media and Cultural Studies class and possibly a class called Film and Society provided that the enrollment number cracks the minimum requirement - but then in the Spring I'm going to be teaching the Media and Cultural Studies class again but, more importantly, History of Cinema III: 1975-Present and Storytelling and Style in Film (basically an intro to film class with more emphasis on craft than history/industry). For the History class, I'm thinking of starting on Week 1 with Taxi Driver and ending on Week 10 with Joker (which I still haven't seen, so this would be the perfect reason for me to not procrastinate further). What do you think?

The Irishman (2019) [...] was mostly excellent.

giphy.webp


The SMC is watching that this week and I posted this in there earlier today:

This movie was a fucking dumpster fire. Like, seriously bad. In every way, shape, and form. Two massive thumbs all the way down.

For starters, the make-up and computer crap couldn't change the fact that everybody looks like they're in their eighties. When Pesci called De Niro "kid" in that early scene where he helps him with his truck, I laughed hysterically. At no point in the movie does anybody look under the age of 60.

That obvious problem aside, the major sin committed by this movie was simply being boring. For a Scorsese comparison, The Irishman is more like Casino than it is like Goodfellas or The Wolf of Wall Street. The latter two films do try to capture an era and a zeitgeist, but they're ultimately character pieces; you're there with Henry and Jordan and everything else is reflected through them. Casino, on the other hand, is very much about the time and the place, it's the story of the rise and fall of the mob in Vegas...and it just so happens that De Niro and Pesci are the major plot movers. The Irishman felt more like Casino with a sort of docudrama feel. Except that Casino wasn't boring. The Irishman was INCREDIBLY boring. And coming in at three and a half hours, that's a lot of time being bored.

Digging deeper, I thought that the script was very weak, with almost zero significant character probing, and that the acting stunk from almost everybody. The exceptions were Harvey Keitel, who was the oldest of the bunch yet who looked the best and who performed the best, and Sebastian Maniscalco, whose comedy I literally can't watch but who undeniably stole the show and honestly outperformed everybody. I also got a kick out of Jim Norton playing Don Rickles. But De Niro was lifeless in the main role (to be fair, the script didn't give him much to work with, but that didn't used to stop him), Pesci had zero menace or gravitas and was more like a neighborhood uncle than a plugged in mover and shaker, and Pacino was almost as bad here as Nicholson was in The Departed. Aside from the Hoffa make-up being terrible, the script made of Hoffa an obnoxious, neurotic little weasel. As if that wasn't bad enough, Pacino did nothing with the role. There were no lovable quirks, there was no genuine pathos. Nothing. Afterwards, I had to rewatch Hoffa with Jack Nicholson and Danny DeVito (who actually directed the film) just to get the taste out of my mouth.

In sum, this is a terrible movie that's just the worst version of everything it's similar to. On one of his recent podcasts, Bill Burr made the observation that this movie felt like everyone in it was saying goodbye. That's the best way to think of this movie. It's just a big cinematic farewell tour with a bunch of old legends who probably won't be around long enough to ever come together for one film like this again. If that's reason enough for a shitty movie like this to be made in your estimation, great, but if you ask me, I'd rather they never worked together again than add a piece of shit to their resumes.

I’ve been getting into Sam Peckinpah (sp)?

His movie with Dustin Hoffman was weird as shit

If you're referring to Straw Dogs, one of the definitive masterpieces in the history of American cinema and just one of the GOAT...then yeah, that movie's weird as shit. But that's why it's so amazing. Nobody digs under the floorboards of relationships and male-female gender dynamics like Peckinpah, and Straw Dogs and The Getaway together are such fascinating examinations, courtesy of one crazy ass dude, of what sustains a marriage in some unbelievably dire straits.
 
The Burmese Harp is an absolutely beautiful film, but rewatching Fires on the Plain, I'm now having a hard time picking which one is better. The former is easier and more enjoyable to watch, but the latter is such an amazing trek into the darkest recesses of humanity when pushed to the most extreme edges of survival
I saw the movie after reading Shoei Ooka’s book. Ichikawa has actually lightened it up a bit with touches of humour and absurdity. Spielberg used the same tactic when filming Ballard’s Empire of the Sun btw.

First, I watched two of the most famous British black comedies, Kind Hearts and Coronets and The Ladykillers, both of which I thoroughly enjoyed, the former especially. If there's a better British black comedy, I want to know it, because fucking hell was that dry, dark, and hilarious. I
Kind Hearts is one of my all time favorites! Dennis Price is unforgettable in it too. Weird that he hasn’t really done any other great lead roles as far as I know.
 
I saw the movie after reading Shoei Ooka’s book. Ichikawa has actually lightened it up a bit with touches of humour and absurdity. Spielberg used the same tactic when filming Ballard’s Empire of the Sun btw.

I read the book that week. I actually only looked it up because I wanted to confirm that the one soldier he stumbles across late in the film is actually eating his own shit and not just eating dirt. I wanted to confirm that, so I found the book online. Definitely not light reading. But it came in handy when one of the kids asked what that guy was eating. I let them argue among themselves before telling them about the book and confirming their worst fears :eek:

Kind Hearts is one of my all time favorites! Dennis Price is unforgettable in it too. Weird that he hasn’t really done any other great lead roles as far as I know.

I don't know him beyond that movie. How about the writer/director Robert Hamer? Have you seen any of his other stuff? He's on my radar now and from his IMDb page I already want to check out The Detective and To Paris with Love. I also admit being curious about The Scapegoat with Bette Davis alongside Alec Guinness.
 
How about the writer/director Robert Hamer? Have you seen any of his other stuff?
Dead of Night is a wonderful episodic horror movie and I have Pink String And Sealing Wax on bluray waiting for the right moment.

Dennis Price ended up playing Victor Frankenstein in Jess Franco’s Dracula, Prisoner of Frankenstein and Erotic Rites of Frankenstein and boozed himself to death soon after. I bet he loved shooting those two movies though.
 
I rewatched Kind Hearts and Coronets a few weeks ago.It's the GOAT british comedy.
Loved the fact that he really wanted to kill the priest after having to sit through his boring eulogy.
 
That’s right @Bullitt68 - straw dogs, it’s making me feel kind of sick thinking about it. It’s free on YouTube. I heard Dennis Leary say Sams name in a song and listened to an interview with him. Serious person, has that real auteur attitude; watched straw dogs.

I really had no idea what I was in for. It’s still bothering me.
 
Hey @Rimbaud82, in your historical film watching travels, have you ever come across The Abdication? If you have, I'd love to get your thoughts. If you haven't, I would HIGHLY recommend checking it out. Several months ago, TCM had a night where they played a bunch of Liv Ullmann films. Obviously, they played some Bergman stuff, but they also played some English-language stuff, none of which I'd ever seen before. After collecting dust in my DVR all this time, I'm finally having a triple header tonight. The Night Visitor was pretty damn dreadful, although there was some enjoyment from watching Max von Sydow play a homicidal maniac. But The Abdication was fucking spectacular.

Directed by Anthony Harvey (best known for The Lion in Winter) and written by Ruth Wolff (barely did anything and doesn't even have a Wiki page but damn if she didn't knock this one out of the park), The Abdication tells the story of Queen Christina of Sweden (Liv Ullmann) abdicating her throne in 1654, traveling to Rome in order to convert to Catholicism, and being examined by a Vatican cardinal (Peter Finch) prior to being granted an audience with the Pope. It's an absolutely fascinating psychological examination of a female ruler - it's like Ruth Wolff watched Mary of Scotland, read Ayn Rand's "About a Woman President," and then set about writing - but also a bizarrely enthralling "love story" between a disgraced former Queen and a fallen priest. The film suffers a bit from its super '70s aesthetic, but the script is impeccable and Anthony Harvey clearly had a knack for dialogue-heavy period pieces.

More than anything else, though, this is an absolute acting masterclass. @JSN, I know that you've always thought very highly of Liv Ullmann. Well, I've seen everything she ever did with Bergman, and I'm telling you, nothing - not Persona, not Shame, not Scenes from a Marriage, not even Autumn Sonata - absolutely nothing comes close to her work in The Abdication. Queen Christina is an unbelievably rich character and she crushes it so hard. She hits every emotion perfectly on the head, she is painfully authentic with every gesture and every word. If I were to write out a list of the GOAT female acting performances in film history, this would absolutely be in the top 10 and I wouldn't be all that surprised if it cracked the top 5. She's that fantastic here.

Anyway, I had to come here and post about that. My last movie in tonight's triple header is Zandy's Bride. How about that one, Rimbaud? Ever see it? Ullmann is a mail-order Swedish bride ordered by California rancher Gene Hackman in the 1870s. It was directed by Jan Troell, the guy who did The Emigrants and The New Land. Coming off the high of The Abdication, it has to follow quite the showstopper, but I'm looking forward to checking it out regardless.

Dead of Night is a wonderful episodic horror movie

I checked this out on TCM once years ago but I don't really remember it, plus I didn't know Robert Hamer at the time, so I could certainly use a rewatch.

I rewatched Kind Hearts and Coronets a few weeks ago.It's the GOAT british comedy.
Loved the fact that he really wanted to kill the priest after having to sit through his boring eulogy.

Only recently did I see for the first time both Withnail and I and Kind Hearts and Coronets. At the moment, at least, I'd have to give the edge to Withnail and I as the GOAT British comedy, but Kind Hearts and Coronets is definitely a close second.

That’s right @Bullitt68 - straw dogs, it’s making me feel kind of sick thinking about it. It’s free on YouTube. I heard Dennis Leary say Sams name in a song and listened to an interview with him. Serious person, has that real auteur attitude; watched straw dogs.

I really had no idea what I was in for. It’s still bothering me.

What's making you feel sick? What's still bothering you? Obviously, there's the rape scene, but more broadly I've always admired Peckinpah for the way that he made such an ethically challenging film bringing in rape, :eek::eek::eek::eek:philia, and draft dodging in the course of interrogating via Dustin Hoffman's ordeal throughout the film what constitutes (then if not also now) proper masculinity. It's such a fascinating film that I want to watch it more times than I actually have, but it's such a disconcerting film that I haven't watched it anywhere near as many times as I feel like I should've. Definitely not an easy film to deal with, but I'd be curious to hear you elaborate on your thoughts and feelings if you're up for it.
 
What's making you feel sick? What's still bothering you? Obviously, there's the rape scene, but more broadly I've always admired Peckinpah for the way that he made such an ethically challenging film bringing in rape, :eek::eek::eek::eek:philia, and draft dodging in the course of interrogating via Dustin Hoffman's ordeal throughout the film what constitutes (then if not also now) proper masculinity. It's such a fascinating film that I want to watch it more times than I actually have, but it's such a disconcerting film that I haven't watched it anywhere near as many times as I feel like I should've. Definitely not an easy film to deal with, but I'd be curious to hear you elaborate on your thoughts and feelings if you're up for it.

What is messing with me:

Hoffman starts it off with that "8 year olds" joke. He says the Blonde acts like a 14 year old. Malleable; a coward. After that, in the first half hour of the movie, I just get this sense that I'm not where I think I am. That is the best way to describe the feeling, it is a feeling of "I don't belong here." Me, not the characters. I watched the movie and it inspired that feeling in me - it was almost, not even related to the film - once I started feeling it. It made me want to turn the movie off. That eerie sensation, I have it, walking around Toronto. I saw a dead cat on the street the other day. Looked a lot worse than the hanging one in the movie. But seeing it shot me back to the movie. I feel like things around me are keeping me in that headspace. The eerie "I don't belong here" headspace.

It's also that some of the people in Straw Dogs, and the setting, remind me of my family. And when the blonde's panties get stolen and the boys are throwing them around that bar, (I thought it might be a half-comedy at that point, I had no idea what I was watching) I recognized it all. I really recognized it. Like looking at a painting I forgot about from my grandpas basement.

"I've been here and laughed with people just like that. Twisted sense of humor, the lot of them."

I sort of know them. But there is violence and lust built up in those people. I'm 33 now. It is in me, too. A side point, also, the people I know who remind me of characters in the film; they don't think about "things" the way I do. I can tell just by the way we get on. It is more of a "sports and hows the family doing." But they all know it's there. Like when a bunch of men hang out, we know we crave violence and sex even though we're civilized. We joke about it. But it's real and it's there. Things could get out of hand any second. If Kate Upton showed up and said last man standing gets me tonight. We'd tear each other apart.

Peckinpah picked it out. He picked it right out and made it into a movie. Even the camera angles tell me he knows the sentiment I'm trying to describe. There's just something about it. That is the main, thing, I guess you could say, that I have been wrestling with.


Some random thoughts on the film:
- When things are good, in the first half hour, Hoffman plays with her in the bedroom until he fucks her, which I get a sense the other men in town couldn't do. That's his edge. That's sort of what I want for myself. Playfullness and blondes. Hoffman has a good life worth protecting.

- When she's getting raped. It's not very violent. It feels sanitized. At first it reminded me of what it was like to watch fight scenes after watching an MMA card. Then I realized "that is probably the point". A lot of people might find this scene, initially, ambiguous and that makes it more interesting, there is more to dissect from a scene when it's put together that way.

For example, the way she feels up his arm and looks at him. Maybe there is a triple game going on when someone gets raped. Rapist, rapee, survival instinct. I've heard of that. Woman tries to take control and think of something else. She is trying to conjure images of her husband in those flashbacks. But she's biting her lower lip in the scene. Presumably because sex feels good. But it's rape. Then the next guy comes in. It's like, "is he gods punishment for trying to take some kind of control?" And that is when she screams extra horrified. When she knows she has been fully violated. There's nothing left she can do to take control of her situation or mind. She is being violated beside a man who already violated her, and with his permission. All control or agency is now wiped away. I saw her confusion and mental scarring folding over like Japanese steel. It will become strong and conspicuous. From creation to death it will be worn on the outside.

More random stuff -
I think the standup scene in my city is a bit perverse. Penckinpah might agree. A hanging always draws a crowd, you know what I mean? I've talked to comedians who are there to watch people fuck up. Not my fuck ups, specifically, though I'm sure their glee knows no bounds..I personally hate seeing people bomb... But the look on this one persons face. It's the look that fuckin rapist has when he is in the middle of the act in Straw Dogs. And I think what this guy sees is something similar to what the 70s audience saw when the blonde is languid, languorous; because a person all twisted in confusing pain is what they came for. But it's all something else, bizarre, damning, to the person putting on the show.

I've been reading Edmund Burke. He's the only explicitly conservative philosopher who resonates with me. I'm not sure if anyone really knows or cares about him anymore. He was famous for his battles with Thomas Paine. He talks about the feeling Peckinpah picked out and made into a movie - and what happens to that piece of us when it is presented with power and opportunity; held back by nothing but ideas. I'm relating it to my own life experiences and sentiments based on what that movie made me feel and it's twisting me up.

I have more I want to write but I feel I've gone on too much already
 
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I checked this out on TCM once years ago but I don't really remember it, plus I didn't know Robert Hamer at the time, so I could certainly use a rewatch
I watched Pink String and Sealing Vax yesterday. Nice, discreetly macabre period murder melodrama. Well made, but not nearly as uniquely refined as Kind Hearts.
 
Great to see this thread is still going. I was one of the original posters back in the day. Some hilarious discussion was had over the years and some big characters regularly debated and often disagreed. Was always in good humour though. Great times

Shit man just read the updated OP. That's sad news to hear a few of the guys are no longer with us. I remember them well from on here.
 
Hey @Rimbaud82, in your historical film watching travels, have you ever come across The Abdication? If you have, I'd love to get your thoughts. If you haven't, I would HIGHLY recommend checking it out. Several months ago, TCM had a night where they played a bunch of Liv Ullmann films. Obviously, they played some Bergman stuff, but they also played some English-language stuff, none of which I'd ever seen before. After collecting dust in my DVR all this time, I'm finally having a triple header tonight. The Night Visitor was pretty damn dreadful, although there was some enjoyment from watching Max von Sydow play a homicidal maniac. But The Abdication was fucking spectacular.

Directed by Anthony Harvey (best known for The Lion in Winter) and written by Ruth Wolff (barely did anything and doesn't even have a Wiki page but damn if she didn't knock this one out of the park), The Abdication tells the story of Queen Christina of Sweden (Liv Ullmann) abdicating her throne in 1654, traveling to Rome in order to convert to Catholicism, and being examined by a Vatican cardinal (Peter Finch) prior to being granted an audience with the Pope. It's an absolutely fascinating psychological examination of a female ruler - it's like Ruth Wolff watched Mary of Scotland, read Ayn Rand's "About a Woman President," and then set about writing - but also a bizarrely enthralling "love story" between a disgraced former Queen and a fallen priest. The film suffers a bit from its super '70s aesthetic, but the script is impeccable and Anthony Harvey clearly had a knack for dialogue-heavy period pieces.

More than anything else, though, this is an absolute acting masterclass. @JSN, I know that you've always thought very highly of Liv Ullmann. Well, I've seen everything she ever did with Bergman, and I'm telling you, nothing - not Persona, not Shame, not Scenes from a Marriage, not even Autumn Sonata - absolutely nothing comes close to her work in The Abdication. Queen Christina is an unbelievably rich character and she crushes it so hard. She hits every emotion perfectly on the head, she is painfully authentic with every gesture and every word. If I were to write out a list of the GOAT female acting performances in film history, this would absolutely be in the top 10 and I wouldn't be all that surprised if it cracked the top 5. She's that fantastic here.

Anyway, I had to come here and post about that. My last movie in tonight's triple header is Zandy's Bride. How about that one, Rimbaud? Ever see it? Ullmann is a mail-order Swedish bride ordered by California rancher Gene Hackman in the 1870s. It was directed by Jan Troell, the guy who did The Emigrants and The New Land. Coming off the high of The Abdication, it has to follow quite the showstopper, but I'm looking forward to checking it out regardless.

Haven't seen either of these ones lad! But The Abdication sounds right up my street so I will have to check it out.
 
Gaiz,


The Potatohead by Scorsese sucked.


That is all.
 
Chimes of Midnight: I liked the first half but couldn’t handle the Shakespearean English and just gave up trying to keep up with it after the wonderful and partly Jess Franco directed battle scene. Really too bad as it seems like a great movie.

Did Monty Python copy Falstaff’s battlefield cowardry antics for some scene in Holy Grail? Hilarious stuff that seemed very familiar.
 
Watched two films recently (on top of a million different versions of A Christmas Carol, the Patrick Stewart version is still the best fyi).

Che: Part One (2008)
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The first portion of Steven Soderbergh's epic about Che Guevera (funnily enough). I have these on DVD from when I was younger and probably just thought Che was cool. So I finally rewatched now that I am more film literate, as it were. It has something of a mixed reputation but despite some drawbacks I find it to be a fascinating film. Part One covers the Cuban Revolution, while Part Two covers Che's failed attempts to bring the revolution to Bolivia and his death there. By only rewatching Part One there is a lot missing, I feel it works best as a single film...but I have seen the second part previously and much of the same things apply (although there are some crucial stylistic differences too).

Can't go any further without saying how spectacular Benicio Del Toro is as Che (and the actor playing Castro is also excellent). He inhabits the character such that even though he is a hugely well known actor, you almost feel like at points that you are watching footage of the real Guevera. Some may be put off by the style employed by Soderbergh (if not by the length). It is far from a straight-forward biography. There are two broad narratives; the planning of the revolution in Mexico City, then it's execution in Cuba (all shot in colour) and alongside this narrative there is separate scenes of Che following the revolution in the USA, speaking at the United Nations (shot in black and white). Structurally the film does not follow a straightforward linear pattern but rather moves between the two fluidly. Even within the narrative of the revolution itself, it progresses in order of course, but freely jumps ahead through time - at one point we are with Che has they are on the boat from Mexico, then suddenly a year ahead we find Che suffering from a asthma in the depths of the jungle. At different stages we also hear voice-overs from Che himself (Del Toro reading from his Reminiscences of the Cuban Revolutionary War, or quotes from Che being interviewed by an american journalist) transposed over scenes from the revolutionary campaign.

So it's not a straightforward biopic nor a coherent story of the revolution as a whole, but neither is it necessarily a film which thoroughly explores Che as a cultural icon. I think people expecting either of those things would be disappointed. It's something more like 'scenes from a revolutionary life', particular snippets of Che's story and particular moments from the revolution, shot in a documentary style, forming a larger puzzle which provides some insight into the day-to-day reality of a guerrilla campaign. The style is extremely naturalistic, like a documentary as I said. Instead of explanation we simply watch the action unfold. Action acts as explanation. For instance, there is no introduction to the events which made Che a committed revolutionary (we join things in media res) nor is there an easy exposition into the revolution itself - for instance it's pre-conditions or the conflicting/competing revolutionary and leftist groups - but much of this is drawn out through action and dialogue. There is also a tension between the action itself and the various voiceovers and interview scenes in which ideas and thoughts are articulated - theory vs action. I have seen some complaints that the film is boring. Certainly it doesn't move at a fast pace. The momentum generated by something like a gun battle will be deliberately halted by quiet scenes of Che preparing his speeches for the UN and the like. But I feel that it contains its own particular rhythm which is well suited to its portrayal of the long guerrilla war. Until the final lengthy climax in the Battle of Santa Clara, the action largely occurs within the rough confines of the Sierra Maestra mountains in 1958 and Che: Part One is probably about as close as a big Hollywood film can come to depicting genuine guerrilla warfare. It works even better when the successes of Part One is tempered by the utter failure in Bolivia portrayed in Part Two.

The Battle of Algiers (1966)
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One of the best films I have ever seen. Gillo Pontecorvo depicts the Algerian struggle for independence from the occupying French in the 1950s in an incredibly vivid and naturalistic style. Working with almost exclusively non-professional actors the film depicts the escalating violence of the conflict with documentary precision. As you would expect both from the time in which it was released and as a film from Pontecorvo it is very sympathetic to the Algerian cause (and rightly so). However it's far more than a simplistic anti-French, anti-imperialist film, though it clearly does come from an anti-imperialist perspective. The Algerian National Liberation Front (FLN) are the good guys in the sense that they are "on the right side of history". They are portrayed as being forced to turn to armed struggle, in the form of terrorism, as a consequence of oppression by the colonial state and the actions of the Pied-Noirs (the European settler class in Algeria). However, it is far from a simplistic black and white portrayal. This is probably what makes it such a brilliant film, along with the visual style.

The FLN have the weight of history and of morality on their side, but this does not mean every action they take is legitimate, or at the very least their actions are not purely praiseworthy. For instance, they "clean up the streets" of the Casbah ghetto by getting rid of drugs and prostitution, acting as the moral judges of the Algerian people. In a sense this is praiseworthy as the French colonial state had implicitly allowed this continue. However we also see the human cost of this, as a poor alcoholic is shown being set upon and beaten by a gang of angry youths. Likewise the French are not presented as a purely evil colonial force. This is mostly represented in the character of Colonel Mathieu, the man in charge of the Paratoopers brought in to quell the situation. He uses tough but effective tactics to dismantle the FLN, but he is also an articulate humanist and a veteran of the French Resistance who is respectful of the Algerian fighters. In his actions and words he clearly articulates the French colonial mindset - 's it legal to set off bombs in public places?... No, gentlemen, believe me. It is a vicious circle. We could talk for hours to no avail because that is not the problem. The problem is this: the FLN want to throw us out of Algeria and we want to stay.The problem is this: the FLN want to throw us out of Algeria and we want to stay...' [and in the '50s there was a strong consenus in favour of crushing the FLN rebellion, even from many on the left], 'We are here for that reason alone. We are neither madmen nor sadists...We are soldiers. Our duty is to win'...'Therefore to be precise, it is my turn to ask a question. Should France stay in Algeria? If your answer is still yes, then you must accept all the consequences.'

The film is in essence a treatise on the use of political violence. Pontecorvo shows how the tactics used by the FLN: assassinations, bombs, gun-battles and general strikes, and those by the French in response: barbed wire checkpoints and harassment (frequently involving racial profiling), martial law, and especially the use of torture, all play a part in a spiral of violence and counter-violence. After an increase in FLN shootings, the French plant a bomb in the Casbah (the poor Algerian quarter) indiscriminately killing several innocent Algerians in their sleep. In response the FLN uses women to plant bombs at Air France offices, a cafe, and an ice cream bar popular with young pied-noirs. In a sense the FLN violence is seen to be a legitimate and necessary strategy, but close-ups of the victims faces complicate this somewhat by reinforcing the human cost. At the very least it avoids glamorising the violence. Ultimately the FLN are defeated in the Battle of Algiers. Mathieu's brutal tactics are successful. However, the film of course does not end with this. In the climax we see how a couple of years later a mass revolt breaks out which ultimately succeeds in bringing about Algerian Independence in 1962. With this the film seems to suggest that the FLN acted as a revolutionary vanguard and set the stage for the popular rebellion. Ultimately Pontecorvo also questions the use of torture and repression in fighting against colonised peoples, particularly in the long-term although it may bring short-term victory.

The authenticity of the film is striking. Saadi Yacef, a real FLN leader even co-produced the film and plays a character modelled on his own experiences. It wasn't intentional that I watched this so soon after rewatching Che, I had been meaning to watch it for a while (particularly after having watched Operacion Ogro, a later film by Pontecorvo) but in it's style it's clearly one of the films whose influence can be seen strongly in the likes of Che.
 
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