Movies Serious Movie Discussion

[europe1]

Has anyone else tried giving this one a serious look? Any thoughts? I’m interested if you agree with some, all or none of what I said. Do you even see this “art house” or “worthy” of deep analysis? Because I feel that many of the reviewers did not treat it as such but as time passes people will have to reconsider their early dismissals of this work.

One thing I got stuck on was the contrast between the Analysist (Ressurections villian) and the Architect from the first trilogy. Obviously, they fufill similar functions in the story, being the creators of the Matrix and all, but their characters are very different.

The Architect was a very classical, patriarchal, orderly villian. He made the Matrix into a simulacrum of the real world. He was gravely focused on choise, control and destiny and all those things.

The Analysist on the other hand... takes a more 21th century approach. He finds it best to stoke humanities impulses and anxieties in their imaginary world. He doesn't want order or realism -- he want's drama. His Matrix is one of contrived storytelling, where Neo and others are constantly reminded of their past lives to generate brain-buzzing electricity. "Realism" isn't the guiding motto in his world, cheap base entertainment is. The man himself acts like an jocular Tech Mogul wanting to show-off his creation.

In a way... I feel like all these changes are a stab at how social media, cinema, and internet-culture has changed our society during the last 20 years. The buzz-word no longer is order or realism. The buzz-word is "engagement". The Analyst creates a Matrix where its inhabitants are constantly "engaged" with his product, reacting to it, feeling bound to it, having the Matrix generate drama for them (like allowing Neo to see Trinity just for the drama). This mirrors how we're constantly "engaged" with social media. We're always online and as such we're always reacting to things that come to us from the internet, however unreal or outlandish they may be. This very much changes our culture and way of interacting. I think the Architect/Analyst evolution is a nifty commentary on this trend.


I also love the meta joke of how Neo's reaction towards Matrix The Game is very much a reflection of Lana Wachowskis reaction towards Matrix the Franchise. Neo's embarrasment, chagrin, and indignation very much feels like a cheeky admittance from Lana's part that all this "franchise-building" is super weird to her. Seeing your Creation take on a life of its own -- with industry-people demanding that it's franchise be perpetuated and evolved -- must be oddly quesy.


As a movie, my impressions of Resurection was overall positive. But it really was one big mishmash of impressions. It sidestepped some normal remake woes with its "metaness" yet it still retained others legacy issues as well. The new cast gets more sidelined by the old cast the further the movie goes on, for instance. And having Agent Smith return felt like a bad storyline decision when you have a perfectly good antagonist in the Analyst. It definitively needed ideas trimmed and other exposed to greater focus. Still, in the end, having Neo and Trinity's relationship be the center of the story felt like a natural and satisfying way of connecting Resurection to the earlier entires. It's as if Resurection is declaring with willy-nilly enthusiasm that this has been the franchises "core" all along. This is a natural-feeling conective-tissue between the new and the old that I feel like many modern remakes/continuations lack.

Also, Catrix is hella stupid... but man was I laughing<45>

 

[Deleted member 499399]

One thing I got stuck on was the contrast between the Analysist (Ressurections villian) and the Architect from the first trilogy. Obviously, they fufill similar functions in the story, being the creators of the Matrix and all, but their characters are very different.

The Architect was a very classical, patriarchal, orderly villian. He made the Matrix into a simulacrum of the real world. He was gravely focused on choise, control and destiny and all those things.

The Analysist on the other hand... takes a more 21th century approach. He finds it best to stoke humanities impulses and anxieties in their imaginary world. He doesn't want order or realism -- he want's drama. His Matrix is one of contrived storytelling, where Neo and others are constantly reminded of their past lives to generate brain-buzzing electricity. "Realism" isn't the guiding motto in his world, cheap base entertainment is. The man himself acts like an jocular Tech Mogul wanting to show-off his creation.

In a way... I feel like all these changes are a stab at how social media, cinema, and internet-culture has changed our society during the last 20 years. The buzz-word no longer is order or realism. The buzz-word is "engagement". The Analyst creates a Matrix where its inhabitants are constantly "engaged" with his product, reacting to it, feeling bound to it, having the Matrix generate drama for them (like allowing Neo to see Trinity just for the drama). This mirrors how we're constantly "engaged" with social media. We're always online and as such we're always reacting to things that come to us from the internet, however unreal or outlandish they may be. This very much changes our culture and way of interacting. I think the Architect/Analyst evolution is a nifty commentary on this trend.


I also love the meta joke of how Neo's reaction towards Matrix The Game is very much a reflection of Lana Wachowskis reaction towards Matrix the Franchise. Neo's embarrasment, chagrin, and indignation very much feels like a cheeky admittance from Lana's part that all this "franchise-building" is super weird to her. Seeing your Creation take on a life of its own -- with industry-people demanding that it's franchise be perpetuated and evolved -- must be oddly quesy.


As a movie, my impressions of Resurection was overall positive. But it really was one big mishmash of impressions. It sidestepped some normal remake woes with its "metaness" yet it still retained others legacy issues as well. The new cast gets more sidelined by the old cast the further the movie goes on, for instance. And having Agent Smith return felt like a bad storyline decision when you have a perfectly good antagonist in the Analyst. It definitively needed ideas trimmed and other exposed to greater focus. Still, in the end, having Neo and Trinity's relationship be the center of the story felt like a natural and satisfying way of connecting Resurection to the earlier entires. It's as if Resurection is declaring with willy-nilly enthusiasm that this has been the franchises "core" all along. This is a natural-feeling conective-tissue between the new and the old that I feel like many modern remakes/continuations lack.

Also, Catrix is hella stupid... but man was I laughing<45>

Thanks for responding. I’m amazed how difficult it is to find people to talk about the movie with. I agree with a lot of what you said but “trimming ideas” goes exactly against the idea I was trying to express. I love that there are so very many things happening. You could watch it 10 times and not get it all. The rabbit holes are a feature not a bug.

I also don’t think it would be right to eliminate Smith because of the Analyst. They represent different parts of the matrix. With, IMO, Smith representing Hollywood or the studio and their conflict over his dreams of “violent revenge fantasies” and the Analysts “Desire and fear, baby. Just give the people what they want, right?” as the voice of the algorithm that chooses the world we see. Also they both serve the purpose of acting as an antagonist and a savior to Neo under different circumstances. I don’t interpret all of this as the movie saying we should abandon the media but telling us not to be a slave to it. For example when Neo and Trinity have had enough of fighting with helicopters. Trinity simply says “bye” and they unplug. They share a touching moment as two aged people waking up and making contact in “the real world”. But then they eventually go back to the matrix.

 

[Rimbaud82]

The Tale of King Crab (2021)

A languid folktale dealing with the process of mythmaking and the art of storytelling itself. Opening with a frame narrative in present day Italy, a group of aul lads sit around a table eating pasta, drinking wine and spinning a few yarns about days gone by in their home region of Tuscia.

The tale they tell is set at the turn of the 19th century, when a drunken wanderer called Luciano returns to his local village after a lengthy absence. Before long he falls in love with a local peasant girl, against the wishes of her father. His rebellious spirit also brings him into conflict with the overbearing prince who controls the area, and both of these factors ultimately lead to tragedy. For his crimes the not so lucky Luciano is exiled to Tierra del Fuego, an inhospitable region at the southernmost tip of South America.

The second half of the film brings a bit of tonal shift, moving away from the quiet pastoralism of the opening portion into something more like an oddball Western. Taking the guise of a priest, Luciano joins a gang of pirates in search of buried treasure. Here we get another layer to the storytelling. Within this folkloric narrative, we get yet another tall tale of a Spanish galley that ran aground many centuries before. Naturally the story also includes the aforementioned treasure. However, as it happens this is a treasure which can only be found with the help of a mythical crab…

If that all sounds a bit strange, well it is. The two halves are also different, though perhaps not as disparate as they might first appear. At home Luciano is in mental exile and longs to escape from the banality of village life; at the ends of the earth he longs for nothing more than to find the treasure so that he can afford to go home. These sorts of tensions are at the heart of the film and while it may not be quite on the same level, there is more than a hint of Herzog’s ecstatic truth about it. Wonderfully tragic.

Personally I liked this one a lot, it was definitely my sort of thing. I absolutely loved the cinematography too I should add, there were some beautiful shots and I loved the colour palette in general.

 

[Rimbaud82]

Also, I'll tell yous what sucked so fucking bad I couldn't even be arsed to write a review - Licorice Pizza (2021).

God almighty what a mess, couldn't believe it after I watched it and saw the praise it was getting. And I did like Inherent Vice (2014) actually, as far as the whole nostalgic, dazed out 70s thing goes. Friend of mine told me it was terrible when she saw it in the cinema, but lets just say I don't always trust their judgement. So I figured I would still like it, but absolutely not.

 

[ufcfan4]

Also, I'll tell yous what sucked so fucking bad I couldn't even be arsed to write a review - Licorice Pizza (2021).

God almighty what a mess, couldn't believe it after I watched it and saw the praise it was getting. And I did like Inherent Vice (2014) actually, as far as the whole nostalgic, dazed out 70s thing goes. Friend of mine told me it was terrible when she saw it in the cinema, but lets just say I don't always trust their judgement. So I figured I would still like, but absolutely not.

Wow. I'm a fan of PTA so I'm sort of surprised there. It looked like it would, at the very least, be fun(ny). That's too bad. Lot of solid talent involved in that production. I'll probably give it a watch one of these days but I'll really temper my expectations.

 

[Rimbaud82]

Wow. I'm a fan of PTA so I'm sort of surprised there. It looked like it would, at the very least, be fun(ny). That's too bad. Lot of solid talent involved in that production. I'll probably give it a watch one of these days but I'll really temper my expectations.

I'll be curious to hear your thoughts if you watch it, but I honestly hated it. Was surprised how much I did actually.

 

[ufcfan4]

I'll be curious to hear your thoughts if you watch it, but I honestly hated it. Was surprised how much I did actually.

I forget if you've enjoyed any of his other work- aside from Inherent Vice, of course. Boogie Nights? The Master? There WIll Be Blood, etc?

 

[Rimbaud82]

I forget if you've enjoyed any of his other work- aside from Inherent Vice, of course. Boogie Nights? The Master? There WIll Be Blood, etc?

Of course, I love all three of those films. Especially There Will Be Blood. Can't really remember my thoughts on Phantom Thread (2017) actually, I think I liked it ok but only saw it the once in the cinema. Suppose it didn't leave a huge impression, but I certainly didn't hate it like I did Licorice Pizza.

 

[Yotsuya]

Tried to figure out a movie that would take me out of my war in Ukraine psychosis. This fit the bill perfectly:



Great combination of Russophilia and Russophobia with a glorious tribute for Scandinavian angst.

 

[europe1]

Tried to figure out a movie that would take me out of my war in Ukraine psychosis. This fit the bill perfectly:



Great combination of Russophilia and Russophobia with a glorious tribute for Scandinavian angst.

Heyo old friend!

You doomscrolling the war 24/7 too huh?

Personally, I'm mentally unable to read Woody Allen's name without thinking of the absolute loathsome venom Orson Wells displayed towards him

 

[Yotsuya]

Heyo old friend!

You doomscrolling the war 24/7 too huh?

More like trying to figure out the Russian mentality and stuff. Had few conversations in the War Room. I was never that pessimistic about the actual fighting, but Russian propaganda and war crimes got me riled up.

Personally, I'm mentally unable to read Woody Allen's name without thinking of the absolute loathsome venom Orson Wells displayed towards him

Funny that you mention this. I was just talking about Welles' comments yesterday. I don't necessarily disagree with the analysis. Those aspects work absolutely marvels with Woody. Welles has even more to say about Chaplin and those things I agree wholeheartedly. While bashing Chaplin he naturally praises Keaton and says General is possibly the best movie ever made, which is another funny and kind of questionable co-incidence: Love and Death is clearly Woody's take on The General, a story in which a clueless dude ends up fighting in a war and romancing with the gal of his dreams. Makes you even wonder if Welles and Allen had had some exchange of words and Allen had decided to take revenge on Welles up by making this braggingly modern, artsy and neurotic version of Welles' favourite movie.

 

[Rimbaud82]

To Sleep With Anger (1990)

Very very impressed by this unheralded, slow-burn masterpiece of Black American cinema. Feel like it deserves to be much better known. The film is set in South Central LA, however it is a far cry from the usual Hollywood setting of gang-riddled ghettos as in Boyz in the Hood (1991), Menace II Society (1993) and the like. Instead we are in a comfortable black residential neighborhood. It’s an urban setting, but a firmly middle-class one. Our main characters are Gideon and Suzie, who have moved to LA from the south to raise their family. The family lives in a lovely big house, with a vegetable garden and small chicken coop out the back to retain some ties to rural life.

On the surface this extended family appears to be rather stable, albeit with some underlying tensions. They have two adult sons - Junior and Samuel, known as “Babe Brother” - who have families of their own. Where the stern and diligent Junior fits neatly into the traditional role of family patriarch, Babe Brother is something of a prodigal son, more interested in the hedonistic pleasures of contemporary life. However, the fault lines in this middle-class facade are ruptured when Harry (Danny Glover), a mysterious drifter from back home, turns up at their door out of the blue. He is an old friend from back down south, but it soon becomes apparent that underneath his country charm lurks something altogether more sinister.

This element of an enigmatic figure ingratiating himself into the family space put me in mind of The Shout (1978) and most especially Pasolini’s Teorema (1968). In this case Harry clearly represents a Black America that has been left behind with that century's Great Migration. The legacy of “The South” hangs over film like a dark cloud. To Sleep With Anger is thus concerned with the tensions between past and present; with the possibility of reconciling collective memory and the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow with contemporary ideals of upward mobility. It is a meditation on black assimilation into the middle-class fantasies of White America, questioning the traditions and rootedness that is left behind in the process, both for good and for bad…

Somewhat elusive in how it reveals its themes, with a plot which unfolds slowly and quietly. It’s played straight and presented realistically for the most part, but there are certain moments of magical realism piercing through here and there. Simply a fantastic film, deeply imbued with African-American folklore and traditions.

 

[Deleted member 499399]

 

[Yotsuya]

I have a creeping feeling I might have dissed Gun Crazy at some point during the SMC years and need to make amends. Just saw it again few days ago after 20 years and found it absolutely intoxicating. One of the most start-to-finish fethisistic noirs with queer and twisted psychological angles. Highly luring spiral of doom.

 

[Bullitt68]

To Sleep With Anger (1990)

Ooh, haven't seen this one. You know, I have Comcast/Xfinity and there's a series of "ScreenPix" channels and one of them shows films by black filmmakers and/or with black stars, and I've seen so many phenomenal under-the-radar movies, like a broader swath of blaxploitation stuff plus more minor films from the '90s. I got to see Just Another Girl on the I.R.T., which is a fascinating film, and Bucktown, USA, which is now one of my favorite blaxploitation films if not my favorite. But I've never seen any Charles Burnett stuff. I've heard of Killer of Sheep, but I hadn't even heard of To Sleep with Anger. Definitely going to be on the lookout now.

I have a creeping feeling I might have dissed Gun Crazy at some point during the SMC years and need to make amends. Just saw it again few days ago after 20 years and found it absolutely intoxicating. One of the most start-to-finish fethisistic noirs with queer and twisted psychological angles. Highly luring spiral of doom.

@europe1, am I making this up or wasn't this one of which you were especially fond? I've never loved Gun Crazy - it's not a go-to noir for me - but it's definitely a fun ride.

 

[Yotsuya]

I've never loved Gun Crazy - it's not a go-to noir for me - but it's definitely a fun ride.

I seem to like the outlier noirs more than the hard-boiled crime movies. Gun Crazy, The Set-Up, Night And the City, Possessed, In a Lonely Place...

 

[Bullitt68]

I seem to like the outlier noirs more than the hard-boiled crime movies. Gun Crazy, The Set-Up, Night And the City, Possessed, In a Lonely Place...

If I'm being honest, I'm just a sucker for anything in the noir realm, but when it comes to which ones I think are the best, I tend to lean toward the "major" ones like The Maltese Falcon, Laura, and The Big Sleep. But other famous ones, like Double Indemnity and The Postman Always Ring Twice, I think that they're not merely overrated, they're legit bad movies and supremely outclassed by more hidden gem type noir films like Criss Cross or Tension or even one of my favorite random TCM discoveries from back in the day, Two O'Clock Courage with The Falcon himself Tom Conway (to say nothing of other in my book top notch noir films from The Woman in the Window, Scarlet Street, and The Killers to Dark Passage, The Lady from Shanghai, and The Third Man).

Of the ones you listed, I like but don't love Gun Crazy, The Set-Up, and Possessed; I don't particularly care for Night and the City (I don't even like the De Niro remake); and I think that In a Lonely Place is the best of that bunch, even if I think that the cinephile crowd has overrated it quite a bit in the years since its release.

 

[ufcfan4]

If I'm being honest, I'm just a sucker for anything in the noir realm, but when it comes to which ones I think are the best, I tend to lean toward the "major" ones like The Maltese Falcon, Laura, and The Big Sleep. But other famous ones, like Double Indemnity and The Postman Always Ring Twice, I think that they're not merely overrated, they're legit bad movies and supremely outclassed by more hidden gem type noir films like Criss Cross or Tension or even one of my favorite random TCM discoveries from back in the day, Two O'Clock Courage with The Falcon himself Tom Conway (to say nothing of other in my book top notch noir films from The Woman in the Window, Scarlet Street, and The Killers to Dark Passage, The Lady from Shanghai, and The Third Man).

Of the ones you listed, I like but don't love Gun Crazy, The Set-Up, and Possessed; I don't particularly care for Night and the City (I don't even like the De Niro remake); and I think that In a Lonely Place is the best of that bunch, even if I think that the cinephile crowd has overrated it quite a bit in the years since its release.

Hey man. Did you ever see Touch of Evil? If so, what did you think.

 

[Bullitt68]

Hey man. Did you ever see Touch of Evil? If so, what did you think.

I have a class starting soon, so I'm going to have to post and run, but yes, I've seen Touch of Evil. I'd put it in that same overrated category as Out of the Past and In a Lonely Place, but not as far down as stuff like Double Indemnity and The Postman Always Rings Twice. Touch of Evil is a damn good film...I've just never thought that it was that good. It's not mindblowing or anything. It's a solid noir film with one of my favorites, Janet Leigh, and with Welles turning in one of his best acting performances, but the rest of the supporting cast stunk (compared to something like The Lady from Shanghai, which had such an insanely awesome supporting cast, the lack of acting depth really shows), Heston was a terrible casting choice and didn't do very well in the role, and the overall plot wasn't all that compelling.

 

[Yotsuya]

If I'm being honest, I'm just a sucker for anything in the noir realm, but when it comes to which ones I think are the best, I tend to lean toward the "major" ones like The Maltese Falcon, Laura, and The Big Sleep. But other famous ones, like Double Indemnity and The Postman Always Ring Twice, I think that they're not merely overrated, they're legit bad movies and supremely outclassed by more hidden gem type noir films like Criss Cross or Tension or even one of my favorite random TCM discoveries from back in the day, Two O'Clock Courage with The Falcon himself Tom Conway (to say nothing of other in my book top notch noir films from The Woman in the Window, Scarlet Street, and The Killers to Dark Passage, The Lady from Shanghai, and The Third Man).

Of the ones you listed, I like but don't love Gun Crazy, The Set-Up, and Possessed; I don't particularly care for Night and the City (I don't even like the De Niro remake); and I think that In a Lonely Place is the best of that bunch, even if I think that the cinephile crowd has overrated it quite a bit in the years since its release.

The thing with James M. Cain adaptations of noir era (The Postman Always Ring Twice, Double Indemnity, Mildred Pierce) is that they are too polished. Cain's rugged style just couldn't be achieved in Hayes Code era Hollywood.

I wrote a mini review of Night And the City recently: "Night And the City is one of my all-time favourite crime movies. An American hustler (Richard Widmark) has ended up in London and tries to make his mark there while it’s painfully clear from minute one that he does not stand a chance in hell. He’s a feverishly delusional opportunist and a total outsider. Jules Dassin’s burlesque expressionism is closer to Pabst’s decadence than Lang’s modernism. Nocturnal outdoor scenes were shot on location in London and look amazing. Mostly English cast is filled to the every last bit part with great character actors. This is a singular noir if there ever was one."

I guess you could call In a Lonely Place overrated as crime movie, but the way it captures something gut-wrenchingly real is pretty unique in noir genre.

Big Sleep I need to revisit. Not a huge fan of Hawks, but I think this one has grown on me. Maltese Falcon is top notch!