Sambo - past, present and future of MMA?

[TJ177]

It's been addressed ad nauseam throughout the years, but virtually every wrestler in the US competes and learns and trains under the folkstyle ruleset first, and then only after branch out to FS/Greco. Winning HS state titles, NCAA titles, etc is always more of a driving primary focus then eventual Olympic gold, so a lot more time is spent working on training specific to scoring techniques (top/bottom, rideouts) that have no relevance to FS.

In other countries they train in the Olympic styles from the start - so little wonder that the US does worse against Russia in FS given it's not their primary style. If folkstyle was an Olympic sport (not going to happen) or the US prioritzed FS (not going to happen) at the high school and college level international medal standings would look different.

FWIW - and again, this is not a new observation, but it's always seemed like the best US MMA wrestlers have been the guys transferring over from greco. Randy/Hendo/Chael and the likes. Guys who have D1 AA credentials but have spent a lot of time working on clinching and pummelling, which is so much of what happens against the cage.

It feels like only recently have we seen the high-level FS crossover success with guys like Cejudo and DC. But DC did a lot of greco at the age divisions and also always had a high aptitude for upper body balance. And with Cejudo I think it's more that he's just so gifted and such a maniac that he is probably capable at being elite at whatever pursuit he's willing to attempt. Same with Yoel.

 

[D 1 Wrestler]

Maybe because the UFC is an American company so of course they are gonna get more American talent. Oh and russian wrestlers dominate US

Russian wrestlers don't do mma. Only the washouts who can't cut it and go sambo route. I would love to see more russian freestyle wrestlers in mma. We already saw khamzat (freestyle wrestler) vs a sambo champ

 

[chiefwiggum]

Man where the fuk can I learn Sambo in Ontario? My work is all online so I’m free to roam anywhere in Ontario.

I’m looking to do martial arts that minimize brain damage. Only have done tkd for 2 years at an average gym. I don’t want to do boxing. I am considering Muay Thai and kick boxing and then replacing one with Sambo.

I don’t know of any legitimate Sambo schools here though. I’m very intrigued and it matches with my goals.

is Sambo Steve still around? I know he’s pretty involved in the Sambo scene over here.

just do bjj. You don’t have get hit or fight anybody. Ever. and you can walk around like you’re great at fighting.

 

[kflo]

Again i think the issue is that combat sambo isnt really your standard MA, its often a transitional MA with guys coming in from boxing, judo and wrestling backgrounds. So it doesnt have massive depth of talent BUT if you have someone with potential become involved it does I think have a pretty strong record.

Folkstyle wrestlings dominance in MMA is IMHO almost entirely down to it being a cheap and easy US talent base to exploit for the UFC, almost zero earnings potential to it outside of MMA so alot of guys will take peanuts early on in MMA.

Besides Combar Sambo linking striking into takedowns well I think you could also argue its benefit over "standard modern MMA training" is actually that it teaches more advanced boxing. You look at Fedor in the past and Nemkov more recently and there boxing looks alot more complete than we typically see, they actually slip punchs, use hand traps, get their head off access on the way in, etc.

Modern US MMA striking tends to be very upright and stiff, very dependent on "seeing the punchs coming" and you actually see guys taking WAY more significant strikes per fight now than was typical 15 years ago. Fights like DC/Stipe 2 & 3 as wars of attrition rather than displays of slick technique.

Sorta silly to argue fedor’s or khabib’s sambo based boxing represents some high mark in mma boxing.

 

[kflo]

Its a combination of an easy sell, a talent base closer to home and a talent base with little earnings potential.

Folkstyle wrestling has never really been a "career", its something you do in school/collage then MAYBE the very best of the best go to one olympics and perhaps then get a job as a coach. Very different in places like Russia, Central Asia, Cuba etc were your much more likely to get decent government funding to carry on though your best years going to repeated world champs and Olympics.

That means Folkstyle wrestling has a.lot of fighters looking for a career in another sport, much moreso than say Judo, Kickboxing, etc, I think you could argue the only other major MA in that position is actually Sambo.

The single biggest factor for MMA sucess though IMHO is when you have someone who built up elite skill in one MA and then discovered they also had elite opponent in another, Fedor has great boxing potential, GSP had great wrestling potential, etc.

You seem to be comparing world champs in Russia, etc to all-american’s in US folk wrestling. Not really an apples to apples comparison. The elite world level American wrestlers tend to stay in wrestling.

 

[GreatSaintGuillotine]

It's a shame Sambo didn't help either of the Emelianekos develop a competent bottom game against good grapplers.

And no, a 40 year old white belt wrestler and Hong Man Choi are not "good grapplers"

Sambo has a lot of good bottom game tactics and attack. But just like in bjj, not everyone specializes in the same thing. There are sambo strikers, sambo top player, sambo bottom players, leg locker, etc.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Sorta silly to argue fedor’s or khabib’s sambo based boxing represents some high mark in mma boxing.

Fedors? no I don't think its "silly" at all, at his peak he was showing boxing technique that is not common in MMA, getting his head off access when coming forward, using hand traps, slipping punches well. He was obviously heavily MMA adapted but I don't think as simplified in his training as is typical in the US today.

I think you see that in Nemkov more recently as well, he's much less stiff in his boxing than is typical in MMA.

You seem to be comparing world champs in Russia, etc to all-american’s in US folk wrestling. Not really an apples to apples comparison. The elite world level American wrestlers tend to stay in wrestling.

They don't seem to stay in wrestling as much to me even at that level, you often get guys who say are involved in one world championships pre Olympics, a single games and then leave the sport which is much rarer in other major wrestling nations, Cejudo being an obvious example.

The US you have a situation of very widespread wrestling training at a youth level and then very limited ability to use it which makes for a lot of easy crossovers.

 

[Turdbucket]

Sorta silly to argue fedor’s or khabib’s sambo based boxing represents some high mark in mma boxing.

They make it flow very well with pressure! KO punching or brutal take downs. MacG sure felt it. Fedors body quit on him so there was only the shitty KO punching left in the end.. But even that was nice! MMA boxing is about being a threat at all times. Not looking good against one opponent. You have to be a threat wherever it takes place. Sambo has always been about that! You can do some brutal stuff in Sambo not allowed in the UFC.

 

[kflo]

Fedors? no I don't think its "silly" at all, at his peak he was showing boxing technique that is not common in MMA, getting his head off access when coming forward, using hand traps, slipping punches well. He was obviously heavily MMA adapted but I don't think as simplified in his training as is typical in the US today.

I think you see that in Nemkov more recently as well, he's much less stiff in his boxing than is typical in MMA.

Again, it’s just silly to use fedor as a reference point for sambo, and a typical mma fighter as a reference point for US MMA. Fedor’s boxing looks great against a typical fighter. Against other elite non-combat sambo fighters like BJ, Aldo, TJ, Cain, stipe, Israel, conor, Anderson, etc, it all of the sudden doesn’t stand out as much. I can say look how much better TJ or BJ’s boxing is than a typical sambo fighter at mma boxing. But that would be foolish, no?

They don't seem to stay in wrestling as much to me even at that level, you often get guys who say are involved in one world championships pre Olympics, a single games and then leave the sport which is much rarer in other major wrestling nations, Cejudo being an obvious example.

The US you have a situation of very widespread wrestling training at a youth level and then very limited ability to use it which makes for a lot of easy crossovers.

And what of all the widespread eastern block wrestlers training at a youth level who become elite or at least equivalent to a top university wrestler, but don’t make it to multiple worlds? Most of them aren’t getting government funding to wrestle or coach the rest of their lives.

And again, cejudo is singularly rare. He’s the only gold medal wrestler in mma and he was always a little less traditional (didn’t go the university path).

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Again, it’s just silly to use fedor as a reference point for sambo, and a typical mma fighter as a reference point for US MMA. Fedor’s boxing looks great against a typical fighter. Against other elite non-combat fighters like BJ, Aldo, TJ, Cain, stipe, Israel, conor, Anderson, etc, it all of the sudden doesn’t stand out as much. I can say look how much better TJ or BJ’s boxing is than a typical sambo fighter at mma boxing. But that would be foolish, no?..

TJ I think stood out as one of the few guys who picked up his MMA striking within the sport who looked to box in a somewhat similar fashion. Guys like Cormier, Lawler, GSP, etc who were certainly good MMA boxers but they were operating within quite a narrow skill set.

The very fact that Fedor was often called "sloppy" I think highlights just how much MMA fans assocate a certain kind of quite stiff upright boxing with being skilled at it. Boxing fans by comparison would say MMA is just that, often very stiff and upright.

And what of all the widespread eastern block wrestlers training at a youth level who become elite or at least equivalent to a top university wrestler, but don’t make it to multiple worlds? Most of them aren’t getting government funding to wrestle or coach the rest of their lives.

And again, cejudo is singularly rare. He’s the only gold medal wrestler in mma and he was always a little less traditional (didn’t go the university path).

I'm guessing there are significantly fewer of them than in the US, I don't believe wrestling training is as universal at school/collage level as in the US plus there doesnt seem to be the same link to shifting into MMA.

I mean the proof of what I'm saying is in the reality of what we see in the sport isnt it? the idea that Folkstyle wrestlers dominate because their art is superior isnt really born out by their beating lots of russian/eastern european/central asian/etc wrestlers is it? the reality is we simply do not see as many of those foreign wrestlers involved in MMA, Dagastani wrestling who also become involved in Sambo being an exception and they don't have a bad record at all considering the small population of the area.

Cejudo was relatively rare in his career but not in his career pattern, Coleman was just the same for example, went to one world champ, the following Olympics then was much less involved in the sport. High level Americans winning medals at one Olympics and then never going to another games is very common down the years, much moreso than other major wrestling nations.

 

[Bilzerian]

In Russia, Sambo is larger than your life

 

[kflo]

TJ I think stood out as one of the few guys who picked up his MMA striking within the sport who looked to box in a somewhat similar fashion. Guys like Cormier, Lawler, GSP, etc who were certainly good MMA boxers but they were operating within quite a narrow skill set.

The very fact that Fedor was often called "sloppy" I think highlights just how much MMA fans assocate a certain kind of quite stiff upright boxing with being skilled at it. Boxing fans by comparison would say MMA is just that, often very stiff and upright.

You’re again just ignoring that fedor’s boxing was no more technical or fluid or effective or uses more boxing “techniques” than the fighters I mentioned. So suggesting sambo teaches more technical boxing isn’t really supported by just saying look at fedor.

Whether fedor was “sloppy” is debatable but he certainly wasn’t a technical boxer. Which makes sense, since he wasn’t a boxer.

I'm guessing there are significantly fewer of them than in the US, I don't believe wrestling training is as universal at school/collage level as in the US plus there doesnt seem to be the same link to shifting into MMA.

I mean the proof of what I'm saying is in the reality of what we see in the sport isnt it? the idea that Folkstyle wrestlers dominate because their art is superior isnt really born out by their beating lots of russian/eastern european/central asian/etc wrestlers is it? the reality is we simply do not see as many of those foreign wrestlers involved in MMA, Dagastani wrestling who also become involved in Sambo being an exception and they don't have a bad record at all considering the small population of the area.

Cejudo was relatively rare in his career but not in his career pattern, Coleman was just the same for example, went to one world champ, the following Olympics then was much less involved in the sport. High level Americans winning medals at one Olympics and then never going to another games is very common down the years, much moreso than other major wrestling nations.

How does Russia and other Eastern European countries develop strong wrestling champions without a large talent base that weeds itself out through competition as they get older and progress? I’m not saying they have the same exposure to mma, just challenging the notion that they have these cushy jobs in wrestling available to them unlike folk wrestlers who have nowhere else to go.

Coleman was very involved in the sport, coaching for Ohio State. He tried out for the 1996 olympics but only made semi finals. His first mma match was after missing out on the olympics. Most medalists continue in the sport.

 

[TJ177]

Also have to note that there have been other US Olympic Gold medalists in MMA besides Cejudo, but from a different time when both the motivations for doing it were different, and the perceived ability to dominate were different.

Back in the pre-Zuffa days a lot of the FS/Greco guys who crossed over did it for side money to supplement their non-existing training income. Especially post-Foxcatcher where there was even less money around than usual. (Monday and Jackson were close to retired from wrestling when they dabbled, but still the same concept). Randy/Hendo/Lindland (not gold medalists but still) were still active on the greco circuit while taking MMA fights. It was mostly side income to supplement training. Even people in the USAW community were ok with it if it helped wrestlers earn a living on the side.

But I would say by the mid-00s it was clear that an untrained wrestler couldn't just waltz through to a title shot, and I think the concept of the part-time fighter/wrestler was over. So now guys have to choose between either Olympic dreams or MMA dreams, at least during their athletic primes.

 

[DarkRaven]

TJ I think stood out as one of the few guys who picked up his MMA striking within the sport who looked to box in a somewhat similar fashion. Guys like Cormier, Lawler, GSP, etc who were certainly good MMA boxers but they were operating within quite a narrow skill set.

The very fact that Fedor was often called "sloppy" I think highlights just how much MMA fans assocate a certain kind of quite stiff upright boxing with being skilled at it. Boxing fans by comparison would say MMA is just that, often very stiff and upright.

Since when does boxing translate into kickboxing or MMA. You cant use boxing evasion if you dont plan to eat a knee or headkick. There is a reason it is upright. Fedors boxing is sloppy because he was winging in with chin up. It translate good with his JudoTD clinch game but it is invites KO.

He got taged by Fujita, imagine brawling with DC in pocket or trying to close distance on Francis same way.

 

[Murder_KickHC]

Oh yeah lets have everyone just dive for the legs right from the get go. Nothing could kill the sport more effectively.

 

[mkt]

Low-info, ignorant TS as usual. The "past" of sambo in NHB/MMA didn't start with Fedor, simp. It started with Oleg Taktarov and others in the 1990s.

 

[Safton]

Technically Sambo isn't even a base. It's another version of different martial arts combined into one

That's sort of arguable. Yes, Sambo's lineage traces back to various extant styles (Judo, Catch, Jujutsu, Greco-Roman, Boxing, along with various Asian regional folk wrestling styles). Yes, Sambo has also become a sport with multiple clearly-delineated rulesets. However, it was born as a martial art all its own with sporting competition not even on the horizon and the martial part being very literal -- having been designed as a hand-to-hand combat system for the Red Army. It had its own curriculum and all. The sporting elements came afterward as it grew in popularity.

I don't feel like being derived from multiple extant martial arts (or combining elements of those arts into one) necessarily disqualifies something from consideration as its own independent child art -- or base, as the case may be. By that standard, it would be impossible for someone to have a base in a lot of styles that we generally see as being independent: Kyokushin, Judo, BJJ, Sanda, Taekwondo, Dutch Kickboxing -- they're all arts with their own identity but derived from multiple ancestors.

Just my two cents.

 

[Iron Skin]

American wrestling has provided many more champions and top 10 fighters. You listed two guys because there are only two guys to list. Most sambo guys don't make it out of crappy russian regional promotions and they are lucky that the elite russian wrestlers don't care for mma

Khamzat, a wrestler, worked a sambo champ. A good wrestler with solid striking will forever be the best potential

Khamzat also easily beat a D1 All american

 

[TJ177]

I've never heard of Sidney Wheeler, much less AA-ing D1. Going to have to say nah on that one.

 

[Iron Skin]

I've never heard of Sidney Wheeler, much less AA-ing D1. Going to have to say nah on that one.

Yeah seems like he's not a D1, but he is a wrestler and his nickname is 'All American"