Ryan Hall v. Gray Maynard

I think Gray gave him more respect as a Grappler than he should have. Hall does have an advantage on the ground but I don't see him as the Grappling god many people on here see him as. The UFC has World champs that haven't generated as much fear n their opponent as Gray showed. Gray fought Nate Diaz twice who is better on the ground than Hall. Leglocks are still fairly new in the MMA world and I believe much of the fear is just due to ignorance. I'm curious who Hall's next opponent will be and how they will approach the fight. IMO a solid GnP gameplan will work just as it has against countless other non athletic grapplers in the UFC.

Perhaps. I think you hold Hall in too low of esteem, I don't think Nate Diaz is a better grappler than he is, certainly not as dangerous in the funky way Hall is. Gray had reason to be worried, but I have to think it was a strategic mistake rather than a technical one. That is, Gray could have handled Hall on the ground had he spent his camp dealing with good leg lockers and learning how to stay safe while punching on the mat, but it seems his strategy was just to not engage at all and I have to think that was the camp strategy because it didn't look like Ryan was forcing him into a plan B. Like I said, there have been a number of fights that show how a strong top player with good submission defense can win easy decisions against leg lock heavy grapplers, it's like Gray and his team just didn't ever think that would be a viable strategy for whatever reason.
 
At some point, yes. It wouldn't work against someone who's a better kicker than him, for example. But I don't see what that has to do with the Hall vs Maynard fight.

I was just extrapolating my observation of his strategy. I didn't realize there were specific ground rules concerning what topics we are allowed to discuss. Perhaps you can send me the list so I don't upset you in the future.
 
Perhaps. I think you hold Hall in too low of esteem, I don't think Nate Diaz is a better grappler than he is, certainly not as dangerous in the funky way Hall is. Gray had reason to be worried, but I have to think it was a strategic mistake rather than a technical one. That is, Gray could have handled Hall on the ground had he spent his camp dealing with good leg lockers and learning how to stay safe while punching on the mat, but it seems his strategy was just to not engage at all and I have to think that was the camp strategy because it didn't look like Ryan was forcing him into a plan B. Like I said, there have been a number of fights that show how a strong top player with good submission defense can win easy decisions against leg lock heavy grapplers, it's like Gray and his team just didn't ever think that would be a viable strategy for whatever reason.

It's hard to make assumptions about aging vets like Maynard who've been through the full UFC ringer plus an amateur wrestling career. You just don't know what kind of lingering injuries he has, or what effect those brutal wars with Frankie Edgar had on him. Plus, his losing streak also coincides with the implementation of USADA testing, and as we know a lot of guys used steroids not just for strength but to recover through difficult training camps. I have no evidence for any of this, just saying that it's hard to apply standard logic to a guy who suddenly went from being a fearsome wrestle-boxer to being a tentative counter-puncher.
 
I can totally see why people would hate to watch this kind of thing, but at the end of the day, Ryan outstruck Gray and barely even got hurt in the process. It is the lust for violence that encourages one to ask, "why wouldn't he just throw a punch, damnit?" even though Ryan (as well as any other fighter) has no real obligation to actually expose himself to damage just to please the crowd.
 
Plus, his losing streak also coincides with the implementation of USADA testing, and as we know a lot of guys used steroids not just for strength but to recover through difficult training camps.
I mean, I guess I can see the cause for speculation, but Gray hasn't actually even looked good in a fight in the past four years, well before USADA came into the picture. He's ineffectively chased someone around the cage without actually cutting them off or pinning them against it before (see the Clay Guida fight). Overall, I think it seems like he doesn't have the mental confidence that he used to have-- getting KOed by a little guy like Edgar probably doesn't help matters (or getting KOed another like, 3 times after that).

He was still considered an elite fighter even after that dumb Guida fight, the Grant fight was for a title shot and most thought Gray would win, then he got absolutely mollywhopped and he's only won a single fight since.
 
I was just extrapolating my observation of his strategy. I didn't realize there were specific ground rules concerning what topics we are allowed to discuss. Perhaps you can send me the list so I don't upset you in the future.
Prickly, aren't you. But let's recap:

One thing I was wondering is why Hall seemed to not throw any punches at all. Seems like that could have opened things up a bit more for him. Still glad to see him get the W.

This is what you said. Then it was explained to you why Hall didn't throw more punches than he did: because he didn't need to, and because it didn't make sense. Then you changed the topic, while pretending not to, to Hall's future fights. Which have nothing to do with his tailor-made tactics against Gray and his unwillingness to trade hands with Gray.

Gray isn't exactly a world beater on the feet. If Hall is concerned about trading punches with someone at Gray's level then it's only going to get a lot tougher for him.
And saying things like this just demonstrates you don't understand what you're talking about, or how Ryan Hall works.

But I suppose you can throw a hissy fit and become a passive-aggressive little girl because I asked you what your sudden topic change had to do with the thing you were discussing just a second ago.
 
Prickly, aren't you. But let's recap:



This is what you said. Then it was explained to you why Hall didn't throw more punches than he did: because he didn't need to, and because it didn't make sense. Then you changed the topic, while pretending not to, to Hall's future fights. Which have nothing to do with his tailor-made tactics against Gray and his unwillingness to trade hands with Gray.


And saying things like this just demonstrates you don't understand what you're talking about, or how Ryan Hall works.

But I suppose you can throw a hissy fit and become a passive-aggressive little girl because I asked you what your sudden topic change had to do with the thing you were discussing just a second ago.

Right. I'm the passive aggressive one. Good day to you sir.
 
It's hard to make assumptions about aging vets like Maynard who've been through the full UFC ringer plus an amateur wrestling career. You just don't know what kind of lingering injuries he has, or what effect those brutal wars with Frankie Edgar had on him. Plus, his losing streak also coincides with the implementation of USADA testing, and as we know a lot of guys used steroids not just for strength but to recover through difficult training camps. I have no evidence for any of this, just saying that it's hard to apply standard logic to a guy who suddenly went from being a fearsome wrestle-boxer to being a tentative counter-puncher.

I agree with all of that. I think Maynard is pretty shot. But if there's one thing old wrestlers can usually do even if their knees are too wrecked to shoot it's stop themselves from getting taken down, and stay on top. I'm sure there are a lot of mitigating factors but it just didn't seem like Gray and his team made much attempt to make that fight look like Belcher - Palhares or Brooks - Held, which just seems strategically dubious. But who knows? He also might have had an injury that made him really reluctant to engage on the ground, and he just needed the $$$. It's almost impossible to tell from the outside looking in what the real story of a fight is.
 
I mean, I guess I can see the cause for speculation, but Gray hasn't actually even looked good in a fight in the past four years, well before USADA came into the picture. He's ineffectively chased someone around the cage without actually cutting them off or pinning them against it before (see the Clay Guida fight). Overall, I think it seems like he doesn't have the mental confidence that he used to have-- getting KOed by a little guy like Edgar probably doesn't help matters (or getting KOed another like, 3 times after that).

He was still considered an elite fighter even after that dumb Guida fight, the Grant fight was for a title shot and most thought Gray would win, then he got absolutely mollywhopped and he's only won a single fight since.

For whatever reason, he seems to have turned into a tentative counter-puncher, looking to stay out of range and land that big hook or nothing. We can only speculate why that is, but it's a pattern we've seen from other wrestle-boxers (Sherk, Hendricks, Henderson come to mind off the top of my head).
 
Fight was a little boring to say the least. Hall's standup needs work but kicks were on point. I don't understand why Maynard who's usually very aggressive didn't want to engage Hall on the ground. He is a seasoned fighter who has the skills to defend and land some ground and pound.
 
http://fightland.vice.com/blog/ryan-hall-trading-heel-hooks-for-hook-kicks
"We have all seen a fight where the grappler will prove hopeless in getting his opponent to the mat, get exhausted and beaten up on the feet, and then repeatedly flop to guard and hope his opponent is stupid enough to jump on him. The difference is that Hall wasn't simply flopping to avoid the stand up, he was winning the stand up. When his man moved close enough he rolled to attack a leg. That is the difference: if a fighter eats a counter punch and stops leading, that is on the fighter who is now afraid to step in. A good indication of who is struggling in a bout is who is appealing to the other guy's masculinity. Accusing the guy of running? You're probably not very good at cutting the ring. Begging the guy to jump in your guard? Chances are you're not having much luck taking him down. And so on."
 
Man he almost got that berimbolo in the first. All I want for Christmas is a berimbolo in mma
 
You Would have a point, if he wasn't going va a monster wrestler like Maynard. Ryan was just not suit to beat him at that game, he'll most people thought he would've lost this fight, becuuse we all knew there was zero chances he was going to take Maynard down. Did he look good? Nop. But I understand he had to win this fight. Let's see how he does when he faces a striker with no such a stepper wrestling background...


The thing is though, if you start making exceptions for one guy, it gets easy to start making exceptions for a lot more.

Chris Weidman got knocked the fuck out by a classic Yoel 'sandbag then explode in rd3' Romero feat, but he still had the right idea to threaten and pursue takedowns, regardless of the fact that the guy he was shooting after what might quite literally be the best pure wrestler in the whole ufc. He played to his strengths and that set everything else up because its mixed martial arts. Like the old saying goes; he was winning until he lost.

And you know, Gray Maynard is certainly not a bad fighter; but he also isn't exactly the first name you think of when you think of 'top wrestlers in the ufc'. If Gray Maynard is the point where you decide that your train comes to a stop on that front, well, you may as well accept now that you'll never be a contender.

If you want to have consistent success against a wide range of top opponents with a wide range of specialties, to borrow a phrase from GSP, you need to 'use the best weapon'. If another guy can beat you with your best weapon, chances are he can beat you trying anything else too. Sometimes a better fighter is just plain better, and because of that, its foolish to try and base a game plan around something like that. If you adopt a losers mentality, then naturally you'll be a loser. Big dogs don't game plan to 'counter' the big dog, they game plan to be the big dog.

Consistently successful guys are specialists at 'controlling the variables'. In the mma context, that basically translates into control over 'phase shift'; ie, taking down, preventing taking down, cagework, riding, escapes, et cetera.

Practical example: in mma perhaps the number one way to punish someone stepping into you with strike is the counter double. Its money even if your game plan is primarily to strike. See for instance Donald Cerrone vs Jake Ellenberger; jakes money shot, like a lot of wrestleboxers, is the overhand right. But every time he committed to throwing it, Cerrone would change levels and put him on the canvas. He stopped throwing his overhand, and then without his lynchpin Cerrone picked him apart on the feet.

In the fight Hall did not demonstrate if he had any tools to punish someone who simply steps in on him, which is a bit of a red flag. More than that, he actually folded, quite literally that is, under Maynard's pressure. He basically relied on Gray's fear to engage with him on the ground, which can get him beat up against talented and hungry contenders who wont have that same hesitance.

In the end it comes down to a question of optimization; if one were to wish to become a champion using the sort of strategy we saw, you would have to, both, be able to out strike the top striking specialists, and out grapple the top grappling specialists, while they also have the advantage of top position.

Aint nobody got time fo that.
 
Yeah I guess Anderson Silva must have won so many matches with his elite TD skill set.

Despite ceaseless advocacy of bjj guys improving TDs, Maia remains the only guy who has seen much luck with it.

Of course it would be great if Hall developed devastating boxing and fearsome wrestling. But that's like saying water is wet. You aren't enlightening anybody with the scintillating observation. Not one mma fan is unclear on the value of wrestling. That doesn't mean that hitting TDs against khabib is going to be the path to victory for a bjj guy or striker who transitions to mma.
 
Yeah I guess Anderson Silva must have won so many matches with his elite TD skill set.


I think you're being disingenuous, or misinterpreting me.

He won thanks in part to his TDD; the same any striking specialist would need.

Which was my point; its more elegant to specialize in either neutral game or ground game, and then spend another portion your time on the skills needed to keep the action in that area, than it is to try and do both at once, and give your opponent the option of deciding for himself what phases of the fight are most advantageous to him.


Despite ceaseless advocacy of bjj guys improving TDs, Maia remains the only guy who has seen much luck with it.

And he's also the most successful because of it. Do you think many of those other guys really take it as seriously as he does? I doubt it.

You have really talented guys like Charles Oliveira who end up circling the drain as perennial fringe contenders because that talent isn't being deployed in a way that let's them really impose their game on a top guy who really doesn't want to play it.

I mean, did you see the way Phil Davis embarrassed Liam McGeary? That shit was a clinic, one of the best fight of 2016 by far from a technical perspective.

I get that you're (probably) a fan of Ryan; its only natural since we're on the grappling forum and he's a grappler, so of course its hard not to take criticism at least a little bit personal. So believe me when I say I'm criticizing as a fan; these are things I can see potentially causing trouble down the road.

And just to keep things in perspective here, he's already been beaten that way before, anyways. In bizzaro world where Saul wasn't criminal scum who got deported, Ryan might not have even been given a shot in the UFC to begin with after being bumped out of the TUF tourney. And not to knock on Saul or anything, but he is, probably, not the best fighter ever, either.


Standard McGregor Caveat applies of course: i won't count out any guy who manages to put a string of wins together despite all predictions to the contrary; clearly he'd know something everyone else doesn't.
 
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Perhaps. I think you hold Hall in too low of esteem, I don't think Nate Diaz is a better grappler than he is, certainly not as dangerous in the funky way Hall is. Gray had reason to be worried, but I have to think it was a strategic mistake rather than a technical one. That is, Gray could have handled Hall on the ground had he spent his camp dealing with good leg lockers and learning how to stay safe while punching on the mat, but it seems his strategy was just to not engage at all and I have to think that was the camp strategy because it didn't look like Ryan was forcing him into a plan B. Like I said, there have been a number of fights that show how a strong top player with good submission defense can win easy decisions against leg lock heavy grapplers, it's like Gray and his team just didn't ever think that would be a viable strategy for whatever reason.

No, no he is not.
Nate Diaz beat Ryan both times they competed against each other. Ryan Hall really made his name at Purple belt on the Grapplers Quest circuit but hasn't had an illustrious grappling career. If you put together a list of the grapplers he has beaten, its not that impressive. Nate Diaz has quite a few submissions against very tough fighters and credible Grapplers.
 
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Nate Diaz beat Ryan both times they competed against each other. Ryan Hall really made his name at Purple belt on the Grapplers Quest circuit but hasn't had an illustrious grappling career. If you put together a list of the grapplers he has beaten, its not that impressive. Nate Diaz has quite a few submissions against very tough fighters and credible Grapplers.

But Ryan's strength of schedule in competitive grappling is undoubtably stronger than Nate's. Other than Ryan, who is Nate's strongest win in go or nogi competition. Did he secretly have a highly competitive match with Rafa Mendes or Cobrinha when I wasn't looking?
 
But Ryan's strength of schedule in competitive grappling is undoubtably stronger than Nate's. Other than Ryan, who is Nate's strongest win in go or nogi competition. Did he secretly have a highly competitive match with Rafa Mendes or Cobrinha when I wasn't looking?

Name the people top people that Ryan Hall has submitted in his Grappling and MMA career. Name his top 5.
 
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