Ryan Hall v. Gray Maynard

[JustTheTip]

In the end, it was completely Maynard's fault for refusing to follow Hall to the ground. Saul beat Hall up badly because he wasn't afraid of working from the guard. Previous TUF opponents lost because they had too much respect/too much fear for Hall's ground game.

I agree.

 

[jcandoitbig]

In the end, it was completely Maynard's fault for refusing to follow Hall to the ground. Saul beat Hall up badly because he wasn't afraid of working from the guard. Previous TUF opponents lost because they had too much respect/too much fear for Hall's ground game.

saul was also much bigger than ryan

 

[rmongler]

The only one with a complex here is you, jabroni.

I've already seen that vid before jabroni. Tell me if you saw any of that in his fights.

Sure you can try to close the gap in both categories, but at the end of the day an elite wrestler was always going wreck Hall at wrestling.

Similar sorts of conversations have happened a few times in the past so you probably know my opinion, and I don't really feel like getting into it now, I'll just say I find this sort of attitude wrong and maladaptive on multiple levels.

 

[KenkaBancho]

Similar sorts of conversations have happened a few times in the past so you probably know my opinion, and I don't really feel like getting into it now, I'll just say I find this sort of attitude wrong and maladaptive on multiple levels.

I think this is correct... I feel that ultimately, MMA, as a spectator sport, should have rules which emphasise action. Ryan, or maybe even both guys, would have been yellowcarded in Pride rules for employing their respective strategies. Gray wouldn't have looked so bad if he attempted at least cursory strikes to Ryan when he was on the bottom. In Gray's defense though, if Ryan really want to grapple in an MMA fight, he should only have two options: takedown or jump (full) guard a la Shinya Aoki. Otherwise, he should be forced to partake in what is essentially a kickboxing fight, which he won anyway.

 

[yetanother]

I've already seen that vid before jabroni. Tell me if you saw any of that in his fights.

Ryan shot a takedown once against Maynard.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Hall's game may seem unorthodox and novel, but really its a throw back to the sort of attitude a lot of jiu-jitsu fighters had when transitioning to mma.

Which is to say, a pig headed refusal to ever do anything that might resemble working on your takedowns.

A lot of these guys had, and have, a weird complex about wrestling, which results in weird mental blocks in their thinking, which results in weird game plans. Hall simply takes that attitude further to its end in trying to shoehorn it into a practicable strategy, regardless of how disregarding the most direct and expedient options results in inelegant, 'long way around' mish mashing of different other skills to try and paper over the yawning void (all of which would demand more of your limited training time to make effective against top competition).

You Would have a point, if he wasn't going va a monster wrestler like Maynard. Ryan was just not suit to beat him at that game, he'll most people thought he would've lost this fight, becuuse we all knew there was zero chances he was going to take Maynard down. Did he look good? Nop. But I understand he had to win this fight. Let's see how he does when he faces a striker with no such a stepper wrestling background...

 

[n.diazismylife1999]

There's a retarded Twitter war going on with these two.

Some golden quotes:

fuckingillegal ‏@fuckingillegal
@GrayMaynard You were too scared to get in his guard.Wrestlers have beat hall before through top pressure. If you won't engage you can't win

Gray Maynard @GrayMaynard
@fuckingillegal cause he stalls in guard. I'm scared to loose time to fight


Get this, Gray Maynard wasted 10 minutes in the fight by standing and staring at Ryan Hall as he was on the ground, or disengaging whenever Ryan flopped down, yet his excuse for not working in the guard is that he's "scared to loose (sic) time to fight."

And even while standing, Gray did nothing but stare at Ryan. H


Ryan Hall ‏@ryanhall5050
Thanks to the wonders of social media, when the real thing comes up short, one can always morph into Gray "The Cyber Bully" Maynard.

Gray Maynard ‏@GrayMaynard
@ryanhall5050 ok buddy. I told you how I felt when we were in the back to. Your such a little victim




For lots more idiocy (and nonsensical excuses for why he chose not to engage):
https://twitter.com/GrayMaynard/with_replies

 

[karma2burn]

One thing I was wondering is why Hall seemed to not throw any punches at all. Seems like that could have opened things up a bit more for him. Still glad to see him get the W.

 

[Foxflechette57]

It was kind of funny, Hall did what he had to do with his tools.
Maynard did....nothing...

 

[Uchi Mata]

IMO a big thing holding Ryan back is his lack of athleticism. I don't believe he has the ability to explosively shoot or to hold an top tier opponent down. He is at a tremendous disadvantage in almost every physical attribute. I believe his gameplan for this fight was the best chance for him to win. He avoided exchanges on the feet that would put him at the disadvantage.

He's not a terribly athletic guy, but he's an amazing grappler with great kinesthetic sense and more strength than people give him credit for as well as pretty decent timing/reactions. As such, if I were training him, I'd spend a lot of time focusing on slipping/blocking strikes to enter clinches and then using more of a Judo/GR type of attack rather than trying to get reactive shots off. Hall's tall for the division, if he got good at getting underhooks and hipping in he could take a lot of people down against the fence with simple body locks.

 

[Uchi Mata]

In the end, it was completely Maynard's fault for refusing to follow Hall to the ground. Saul beat Hall up badly because he wasn't afraid of working from the guard. Previous TUF opponents lost because they had too much respect/too much fear for Hall's ground game.

Yeah, you'd think the blueprint was out there for dealing with a guy like Ryan. Belcher - Palhares, Held - Brooks, and Sanchez - Held are all fights that saw a good leg locker with sneaky entries lose badly when someone was willing to defend and not really try to engage in grappling exchanges, but rather just take pot shots and not get submitted (Belcher engaged a little more, but it's not like it was a counter leg lock that won him the fight). A life long wrestler like Gray most likely would have been fine if he'd stayed low, gotten a few shots in, and then disengaged before getting sucked into a back and forth grappling exchange.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I've already seen that vid before jabroni. Tell me if you saw any of that in his fights.




Similar sorts of conversations have happened a few times in the past so you probably know my opinion, and I don't really feel like getting into it now, I'll just say I find this sort of attitude wrong and maladaptive on multiple levels.

I would be shocked if Hall weren't constantly working to integrate his improving wrestling into his MMA game. But look how long it took Demian Maia to catch up on wrestling, and Ryan started MMA later than Maia and is going to do what he has to do to win fights now. His strategy worked, but I doubt Ryan himself would tell you it's a strategy he'd want to take into a fight with someone like Chad Mendes. Judging someone's overall skill set based on what you see in their fights is reasonable, but often misleading because smart fighters will always try to take the fight to where they have the edge, even if that is not their preferred style of fighting. I'm a much better grappler than a striker, but if I was in an MMA fight with someone I thought I could out-strike but not take down you'd see me standing up and throwing hands. Based on his comments I think Hall believes strongly in wrestling as the key to being a dominant MMA grappler, he probably just doesn't have the confidence in his own wrestling to make it his primary tool against a Gray Maynard.

 

[n.diazismylife1999]

One thing I was wondering is why Hall seemed to not throw any punches at all. Seems like that could have opened things up a bit more for him. Still glad to see him get the W.

Hall did throw some punches, it was a left hook that opened the cut on Gray's face.

Why didn't he throw more? Because he didn't want to box with Gray; if he can hit Gray, Gray can hit him. He wanted to keep the fight at a long distance and work his kick game. It should be fairly obvious why -- and it worked very well.

 

[JustTheTip]

He's not a terribly athletic guy, but he's an amazing grappler with great kinesthetic sense and more strength than people give him credit for as well as pretty decent timing/reactions. As such, if I were training him, I'd spend a lot of time focusing on slipping/blocking strikes to enter clinches and then using more of a Judo/GR type of attack rather than trying to get reactive shots off. Hall's tall for the division, if he got good at getting underhooks and hipping in he could take a lot of people down against the fence with simple body locks.

I think Gray gave him more respect as a Grappler than he should have. Hall does have an advantage on the ground but I don't see him as the Grappling god many people on here see him as. The UFC has World champs that haven't generated as much fear n their opponent as Gray showed. Gray fought Nate Diaz twice who is better on the ground than Hall. Leglocks are still fairly new in the MMA world and I believe much of the fear is just due to ignorance. I'm curious who Hall's next opponent will be and how they will approach the fight. IMO a solid GnP gameplan will work just as it has against countless other non athletic grapplers in the UFC.

 

[karma2burn]

Hall did throw some punches, it was a left hook that opened the cut on Gray's face.

Why didn't he throw more? Because he didn't want to box with Gray; if he can hit Gray, Gray can hit him. He wanted to keep the fight at a long distance and work his kick game. It should be fairly obvious why -- and it worked very well.

Obviously he threw some punches but probably the least I've ever seen in an MMA fight where the guy didn't have a broken hand. Gray isn't exactly a world beater on the feet. If Hall is concerned about trading punches with someone at Gray's level then it's only going to get a lot tougher for him.

Especially if he comes across someone who can avoid the ground like Gray but can effectively outstrike him and deal with his kicking game.

 

[n.diazismylife1999]

Obviously he threw some punches but probably the least I've ever seen in an MMA fight where the guy didn't have a broken hand. Gray isn't exactly a world beater on the feet. If Hall is concerned about trading punches with someone at Gray's level then it's only going to get a lot tougher for him.

Especially if he comes across someone who can avoid the ground like Gray but can effectively outstrike him and deal with his kicking game.

Why would Hall take a completely unnecessary risk trading hands with Gray when his chosen tactic worked so well and kept him entirely out of danger? He had a plan, he executed it, it worked. Boxing Gray would have only jeopardized it.

 

[fanboysareevil]

Gray fought Nate Diaz twice who is better on the ground than Hall.

No, no he is not.

 

[Oblivian]

Why would Hall take a completely unnecessary risk trading hands with Gray when his chosen tactic worked so well and kept him entirely out of danger? He had a plan, he executed it, it worked. Boxing Gray would have only jeopardized it.

This is what I think most people are missing. Hall has a fairly cerebral approach to MMA. He knows he's better on the ground, but he doesn't know if he can get it there. So he's going to make sure he's better from a kicking distance and control that range. Anytime Gray gets inside that, he dropped to bring it to the ground. His strategy worked perfectly and he basically pitched a shutout, although boring.

 

[karma2burn]

Why would Hall take a completely unnecessary risk trading hands with Gray when his chosen tactic worked so well and kept him entirely out of danger? He had a plan, he executed it, it worked. Boxing Gray would have only jeopardized it.

I understand what you are saying and I agree. At some point though he's going to be in a fight where that same strategy will not be viable and he'll have to come up with a different game plan. Not saying he doesn't have the ability to do that but I think if he wants to be a truly great fighter he's going to need to integrate all the facets of MMA into his game.

The odds of him being a superior striker in any of his subsequent fights is going to be pretty low.

 

[n.diazismylife1999]

I understand what you are saying and I agree. At some point though he's going to be in a fight where that same strategy will not be viable and he'll have to come up with a different game plan. Not saying he doesn't have the ability to do that but I think if he wants to be a truly great fighter he's going to need to integrate all the facets of MMA into his game.

The odds of him being a superior striker in any of his subsequent fights is going to be pretty low.

At some point, yes. It wouldn't work against someone who's a better kicker than him, for example. But I don't see what that has to do with the Hall vs Maynard fight.