Ryan Hall v. Gray Maynard

JustTheTip said:
Honestly, I don't think most people know that.Many people talking about Ryan Hall's Gold really think he got it by competing against the best and finally losing in the medal round to get Bronze. Just like most people don't know that many of these 10thP guys claiming to be "World Champions" are talking about at lower belt or Gracie Worlds and not IBJJF. I really like Ryan Hall's instructionals and have like 6 of them. I think he does a tremendous job explaining things in ways so they make sense and memorable.That said, one of my main pet peeves are when Grapplers get overrated over Grapplers that have the real accomplishments. As a frequent competitor(lower belt) and Grappling fan I see the hard work the top Grapplers have put in and what it takes to win in IBJJF. Even at Blue Belt, a guy can't win IBJJF Worlds without training full time or having extensive Wrestling/Judo experience. I've seen Purplebelts that regularly tapped hobbyist BBs lose in the 1st and 2nd rounds at Worlds. That is the circuit that has the best Grapplers proving themselves over and over again against the best competition. It grinds my gears that some of these guys shun IBJJF for these competitions with subpar talent and ability and people claiming THEY are on the level of the guys winning against the best. Its like we have the NBA and some guys that are killing it in the Greek basketball league claiming they are on the level of Lebron James.
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But but.... Everyone tells me Gordon Ryan will win the World's....
 
fanboysareevil said:
Also, the evidence that Ryan is hopelessly unathletic includes:
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He didn't finish a lock on rear naked choke on Artem when his 50k$ bonus depended on it.
He couldn't do shit in wrestling against Saul Rogers.
In all his interviews Ryan says silly stuff why knockout power doesn't matter.
He should stop kidding himself and get some roids I'm sure his coaches have enough know how to cheat WADA.

Ryan is fast and slick and likely can spin for leglock 3x as fast as GSP but does he have KO power and the ability to do explosive stuff in wrestling rather than chaining a bunch of fancy moves?
 
n.diazismylife1999 said:
Hall is smart, has a great attitude, and an excellent approach to BJJ/MMA. Solid dude in every aspect in my book.

As for him not being athletic, people literally just say that because he looks and carries himself like a nerd and speaks softly. If you only look at what he actually does, you can't deny that he's at least reasonably athletic.
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People also want to put athleticism in a really small box, namely explosive strength/acceleration. Hall probably can't dunk a basketball, but he's very flexible, has great kinesthetic sense, and pretty good reaction times. Hand speed and power cleaning are not the apotheosis of athletic ability for MMA (though obviously they're nice to have).
 
yetanother said:
Ryan is fast and slick and likely can spin for leglock 3x as fast as GSP but does he have KO power and the ability to do explosive stuff in wrestling rather than chaining a bunch of fancy moves?
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Why does that matter? It reminds me of a quote by the baseball manager Dusty Baker about not liking guys who drew a lot of walks because they 'clog up the base paths'. That's exactly what you're supposed to do in baseball, it's unquestionably a good thing, the only reason you'd make an idiotic statement like that is because you had a strong bias towards a particular type of player. Same thing here. I don't think Ryan is ever going to have GSP's reactive double (to be fair, no one does), but if he can chain a bunch of fancy moves and finish guys (or terrify them so much that he gets to pick them apart at range) what does it matter? Winning matters. Not taking a ton of damage matters. Ryan seems pretty good at those things so far.
 
JustTheTip said:
Honestly, I don't think most people know that.Many people talking about Ryan Hall's Gold really think he got it by competing against the best and finally losing in the medal round to get Bronze. Just like most people don't know that many of these 10thP guys claiming to be "World Champions" are talking about at lower belt or Gracie Worlds and not IBJJF. I really like Ryan Hall's instructionals and have like 6 of them. I think he does a tremendous job explaining things in ways so they make sense and memorable.That said, one of my main pet peeves are when Grapplers get overrated over Grapplers that have the real accomplishments. As a frequent competitor(lower belt) and Grappling fan I see the hard work the top Grapplers have put in and what it takes to win in IBJJF. Even at Blue Belt, a guy can't win IBJJF Worlds without training full time or having extensive Wrestling/Judo experience. I've seen Purplebelts that regularly tapped hobbyist BBs lose in the 1st and 2nd rounds at Worlds. That is the circuit that has the best Grapplers proving themselves over and over again against the best competition. It grinds my gears that some of these guys shun IBJJF for these competitions with subpar talent and ability and people claiming THEY are on the level of the guys winning against the best. Its like we have the NBA and some guys that are killing it in the Greek basketball league claiming they are on the level of Lebron James.
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I mostly agree, except that I think there are clearly some guys better suited to winning under certain rulesets who may not be as successful in a more absolute context. I have no doubt that, say, Leandro Lo trains like a madman to get where he's at, but I would still bet against him in a no time-limit match against Gordon Ryan. There are some guys like Buchecha who I think would clean up in any event, and who could probably easily transfer their success to MMA, but many more who couldn't. Ryan Hall's an interesting case because he quickly found that his ceiling in sport BJJ was a level below the Cobrinhas and Rafas, but at the same time he had a game that seemed more fluid and flexible across different rulesets than the guys above him.
 
the way i saw the fight was hall felt bad so he wanted to lay down and give maynard the stronger more dominant top position, but maynard being the low iq caveman he was preferred the taste of halls foot
 
yetanother said:
He didn't finish a lock on rear naked choke on Artem when his 50k$ bonus depended on it.
He couldn't do shit in wrestling against Saul Rogers.
In all his interviews Ryan says silly stuff why knockout power doesn't matter.
He should stop kidding himself and get some roids I'm sure his coaches have enough know how to cheat WADA.

Ryan is fast and slick and likely can spin for leglock 3x as fast as GSP but does he have KO power and the ability to do explosive stuff in wrestling rather than chaining a bunch of fancy moves?
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its quite hard to choke someone as artem with gloves, hell even without gloves no neck guys are really hard to choke if they know how to defend, unless you catch them in a transition...
 
n.diazismylife1999 said:
I could knock out Floyd Mayweather - Ryan Hall
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That's either not understanding his quote or misrepresenting it. Context is everything. Me or you could knock out Mayweather also. If he were standing still with his hands at his side. Yeah, Ryan says that a lot, but it's always in context of being in position to do damage via submissions or strikes, so the 2nd half of Ryan's quote is more important, "I could KO Mayweather, if I could hit him hard in the face. The problem is I would never be able to get anywhere close to him. His skills are so much better that I could never get into position to do any damage to him without getting my own head knocked off."

Ryan has also said the flipside, "I could not get hit at all by Mayweather, as long as we could box on a football field and I could run away without penalty." That was an analogy to avoiding being swept by just hanging out just outside of the guard range all day. So maybe their spider hooks are there but barely touching you. It may look like you aren't getting swept and have great base, but really you just aren't engaging their guard. As soon as you engage, the more technical grappler will probably win. Ryan then ties that back and says if he were forced to truly engage with Mayweather on the feet that he would get his face smashed in.
 
BJJ_Rage said:
its quite hard to choke someone as artem with gloves, hell even without gloves no neck guys are really hard to choke if they know how to defend, unless you catch them in a transition...
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Also a couple weeks before the finale Ryan hall and Artem trained together at SBG to work on Artem's submission defense. Then Ryan was called in as the replacement fighter when Saul Rogers was taken out. So Artem had just learned first hand how to defend submissions from Ryan and then Ryan had to actually try to submit him.
 
I'm watching the fight now. I have to say that Maynard has really painted himself as a complete idiot with his behavior during and after the fight. The guy made it seem like Ryan was only there to do BJJ, and he wasn't; he hit him with a double leg and caught him with a solid counter right hook in the first round, repeatedly kicked him in the face, body and legs in addition to trying to bring it to the ground after that. Gray wasn't even close to winning the striking at any point.

More than that, sure, I can get why someone would deride Ryan for literally flopping to his back at points. I don't like to see that either. But there were also times where Ryan got in on his legs, and was actively fishing for a heel hook, and whenever that happened, Gray repeatedly refused to grapple or improve his position and just stood up. AND whenever Ryan flopped, he completely refused to even try and engage him. So I really think that Gray is just as much at fault for making it a weird fight, but overall, people who are shitting on Ryan for fighting in a way that isn't gonna get him hurt don't get it.

In the last minute of the first, Gray manages to chase Ryan to the fence with punches, at which point he guard-flopped to minimize damage... what does Gray do, instead of try to control his legs, land punches through/around the guard, and basically finish him with GnP? He literally backs away even though Ryan was pinned against the fence and in a bad position...

In the second round too, you can actually hear Gray's corner telling him to get on top of Ryan... and he doesn't.
 
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Steve08 said:
I'm watching the fight now. I have to say that Maynard has really painted himself as a complete idiot with his behavior during and after the fight. The guy made it seem like Ryan was only there to do BJJ, and he wasn't; he hit him with a double leg and caught him with a solid counter right hook in the first round, repeatedly kicked him in the face, body and legs in addition to trying to bring it to the ground after that. Gray wasn't even close to winning the striking at any point.

More than that, sure, I can get why someone would deride Ryan for literally flopping to his back at points. I don't like to see that either. But there were also times where Ryan got in on his legs, and was actively fishing for a heel hook, and whenever that happened, Gray repeatedly refused to grapple or improve his position and just stood up. AND whenever Ryan flopped, he completely refused to even try and engage him. So I really think that Gray is just as much at fault for making it a weird fight, but overall, people who are shitting on Ryan for fighting in a way that isn't gonna get him hurt don't get it.

In the last minute of the first, Gray manages to chase Ryan to the fence with punches, at which point he guard-flopped to minimize damage... what does Gray do, instead of try to control his legs, land punches through/around the guard, and basically finish him with GnP? He literally backs away even though Ryan was pinned against the fence and in a bad position...

In the second round too, you can actually hear Gray's corner telling him to get on top of Ryan... and he doesn't.
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The culture of the UFC, and judging in particular, has undergone a somewhat hidden transformation since Gray's heyday. TUF 5 was a real seminal moment for MMA in that it defined the 'two-dimensional tough guy' archetype that would dominate the sport for the next several years, but that archetype has seen its sunset. Now all the most successful fighters can best be described as "crafty" (mighty mouse, cruz, mcgregor, jon jones, wonderboy, khabib, etc.), and judges are no longer automatically giving the round to the guy who was on top and/or most active on the feet. In Gray's prime, two fights that set the standard for cowardice were Kalib Starnes vs. Nate Quarry and Thales Leites vs. Anderson Silva, which I'm sure was in the back of his mind during and after his fight with Ryan.
 
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