Ryan Hall doesn't believe in guard or shrimping...

[delt16]

Guys, I feel I can offer some clarification. When Ryan says he doesnt believe in "shrimping", he isnt saying that he doesnt believe in the hip escape, he's saying that he doesnt believe in the way its taught. Ever since Rickson taught how to properly hip escape at the Nashville seminar, everyone (or at least the attendee's for that matter) are doing it the way Rickson taught.

Rickson showed the way everyone does it, and said that it was wrong, and possibly lands you in worse position than where you started. The reason Ryan didnt want to go into detail about it is because he was right, the way he's doing it now (the Rickson way), does require alot of explanation, but it isnt like the hip escape we do in teh beginning of class for warm ups.

Does anyone have a video of how Rickson is showing it?

 

[athletic]

It's an interesting article. I generally agree with it ... my game is primarily wrestling-style butterfly guard these days. Getting top position is key. All I do is sweep to mount for a cross choke/armbar, or hit a triangle.

That said, I think his speech is a bit excessively against the guard, which may be necessary for his own development, but not necessarily for everyone. Braulio Estima just decimated ADCC with traditional submission attacks from the guard. Roger Gracie is an absolute killer with submissions from the guard. It's not true that guard attacks don't work at the highest levels. It's true that ideally you want the top position, but you have to be able to kill from the guard to consistently get there every time.

Yes, I think you need to have some form of balance.

An excellent guard is great but what if with no top game, your game may end up excessivly based on subs from the guard. Sweeping to top position, and ideally mount, where 'mechanically you are stronger' has always made sense to me.

An excllent top game is great but what if you get taken down and end up on your back. What if you yourself get swept and end up on the bottom. So perhaps his view of the guard is now from a defensive perspective as opposed to a primary offensive weapon.

So you're right, he the comments are based from Ryan own unique perspective.

Aside from the above it was also interesting to note that during time out with an injury he was able to digest and anlyse his game and he back stronger and better, sometimes time away really does help.

 

[TastyLumpia]

Yes, it was both impressive and exciting... though I did hear that Glover pulled a "Dean Lister". I would REALLY like to see a rematch regardless. that was my second favorite match of the event; first was Cobrinha X Mendes

Lol, are you serious? And those were my two favorite matches of the event too. I spent over an hour just rewatching and rewinding them.

Honestly, Hall's body type looks almost entirely conducive to being a tricky guard player. However much he improves his wrestling and top game he may just be bullied to the bottom by a physically larger and more compact wrestler. If he's able to consistently win using the style he advocates, I'll be amazed.

 

[Mikey Triangles]

Lol, are you serious? And those were my two favorite matches of the event too. I spent over an hour just rewatching and rewinding them.

Honestly, Hall's body type looks almost entirely conducive to being a tricky guard player. However much he improves his wrestling and top game he may just be bullied to the bottom by a physically larger and more compact wrestler. If he's able to consistently win using the style he advocates, I'll be amazed.

Yeah, I heard this from a friend who was there and talked to Glover around when they were calling his name to have him compete in place of Rani...

His gameplan was tight even if he was still drunk, lol. he damn near won the match with the sweep at the beginning of the points section, but Ryan took a page out of Glover's book with the flying monkey back take and just barely got the points before time was up for the win. Epic match :icon_chee

 

[Normot]

...

 

[Doh!]

Lol, are you serious? And those were my two favorite matches of the event too. I spent over an hour just rewatching and rewinding them.

Honestly, Hall's body type looks almost entirely conducive to being a tricky guard player. However much he improves his wrestling and top game he may just be bullied to the bottom by a physically larger and more compact wrestler. If he's able to consistently win using the style he advocates, I'll be amazed.

Ryan has a fantastic guard game - maybe even over-developed some would say. With as good as his guard is, I believe he is saying it has become more difficult to succeed with submissions from there at the highest level - and I'm not in a position to disagree with him. Nor will I likely ever be.

He tells us in class that there are some people with a well developed specific position, but that few people who primarily have a "bottom game" are considered one of the best (i.e. ADCC gold medalist or multiple time Black Belt Mundial medalist). He says that although there are those elite grapplers who have taken a guard position to an extraordinary level and succeed against other elite grapplers, that for most people of average to good athletic ability and average to good flexibility and average to good (insert here) - simple mechanics trumps all. It seems that the majority of elite grapplers are dangerous from everywhere but they prefer to be on top - and Ryan is simply pointing out that his experience has led him to see that this cohesion of thought at the highest level is not an accident.

That said, I don't think Ryan is advocating that guard submissions will "cease to exist". It was about June when Ryan realized he hadn't emphasized the guard enough in class at our gym while watching some of us compete at a tournament. Then and there he decided that he would drop his current curriculum and focus solely on guard for the entire next month. You are overthinking what he is saying. He expects all of his students to have a good guard but he only advocates pulling guard when your opponent has superior take down skills or as a specific strategy to win a given match. And you better believe that if he tells you to pull guard he expects you to do so and succeed. His point is not to say that guard submissions are useless but simply to explain his experience has taught him that the traditional way of viewing and teaching the guard is not sufficient at the elite level. That is all.

Perhaps, if the grapplers he chooses to emulate had his ability to explain concepts in English - they would say the same things. But most people who speak English as a first language are unable to articulate as well as Ryan therefore we can't expect those who have English as a second, third, or fourth language to follow suit in the same manner.

 

[anaconda]

Im going to pose a simple question to you.

If someone is more comfortable being on the bottom, and finds its a more successful position for them, why would they want to force themselves to be a top player, because "other people say its the best place to be"?

Playing bottom position is a tactic, and one that takes a lot of skill to master. Saying that everyone should be looking for top position regardless of their style is like saying the NFL shouldnt have defensive lines as they are pointless, and because the offensive players are the ones that win you games by scoring points. (Excuse the bad example, i tried to think of a sport example which would make the most sense to most people on the board, therefore a US example). Or in an Ice Hockey match, pulling your goalie from the start because you want more players taking shots.

In short, different players play different positions, its the way it is now, and its the way it will stay.
Thats the great thing about BJJ, everyones style is different, and if you chose to you could become lethal from a "defensive" position. You never know whats coming and you never know how 100% of your opponents will react.

Either you didn't read, or you didn't understand the article.

Being on top is preferable because it is mechanically advantageous - you can use your weight as well as gravity to perform techniques. Anything a bottom guy must do has to defeat both those forces.

Its not like your two analogies. It makes sense.

 

[TastyLumpia]

Ryan has a fantastic guard game - maybe even over-developed some would say. With as good as his guard is, I believe he is saying it has become more difficult to succeed with submissions from there at the highest level - and I'm not in a position to disagree with him. Nor will I likely ever be.

He tells us in class that there are some people with a well developed specific position, but that few people who primarily have a "bottom game" are considered one of the best (i.e. ADCC gold medalist or multiple time Black Belt Mundial medalist). He says that although there are those elite grapplers who have taken a guard position to an extraordinary level and succeed against other elite grapplers, that for most people of average to good athletic ability and average to good flexibility and average to good (insert here) - simple mechanics trumps all. It seems that the majority of elite grapplers are dangerous from everywhere but they prefer to be on top - and Ryan is simply pointing out that his experience has led him to see that this cohesion of thought at the highest level is not an accident.

That said, I don't think Ryan is advocating that guard submissions will "cease to exist". It was about June when Ryan realized he hadn't emphasized the guard enough in class at our gym while watching some of us compete at a tournament. Then and there he decided that he would drop his current curriculum and focus solely on guard for the entire next month. You are overthinking what he is saying. He expects all of his students to have a good guard but he only advocates pulling guard when your opponent has superior take down skills or as a specific strategy to win a given match. And you better believe that if he tells you to pull guard he expects you to do so and succeed. His point is not to say that guard submissions are useless but simply to explain his experience has taught him that the traditional way of viewing and teaching the guard is not sufficient at the elite level. That is all.

Perhaps, if the grapplers he chooses to emulate had his ability to explain concepts in English - they would say the same things. But most people who speak English as a first language are unable to articulate as well as Ryan therefore we can't expect those who have English as a second, third, or fourth language to follow suit in the same manner.

That's actually what I was wondering about. There's such a variation of skill, physical abilities and techniques that I was wondering how applicable such a generalization could be. I understand that Ryan still pulls guard because he has a comparative skill advantage in that position, as do many other top level grapplers.

Your explanation clarifies things a bit.

So at risk of gross oversimplification, all things being equal (size, build, skill level), it is better to be on top and passing to superior position, and playing guard should not be a primary strategy unless there's a sufficient technical advantage that overcomes the mechanical disadvantage?

 

[Doh!]

That's actually what I was wondering about. There's such a variation of skill, physical abilities and techniques that I was wondering how applicable such a generalization could be. I understand that Ryan still pulls guard because he has a comparative skill advantage in that position, as do many other top level grapplers.

Your explanation clarifies things a bit.

So at risk of gross oversimplification, all things being equal (size, build, skill level), it is better to be on top and passing to superior position, and playing guard should not be a primary strategy unless there's a sufficient technical advantage that overcomes the mechanical disadvantage?

That's how I understand it at least.

 

[vicodin]

John Danaher says the same thing about the "traditional shrimp" how its taught incorrectly and impractical.

 

[Deleted member 128221]

Im going to pose a simple question to you.

If someone is more comfortable being on the bottom, and finds its a more successful position for them, why would they want to force themselves to be a top player, because "other people say its the best place to be"?

Playing bottom position is a tactic, and one that takes a lot of skill to master. Saying that everyone should be looking for top position regardless of their style is like saying the NFL shouldnt have defensive lines as they are pointless, and because the offensive players are the ones that win you games by scoring points. (Excuse the bad example, i tried to think of a sport example which would make the most sense to most people on the board, therefore a US example). Or in an Ice Hockey match, pulling your goalie from the start because you want more players taking shots.

In short, different players play different positions, its the way it is now, and its the way it will stay.
Thats the great thing about BJJ, everyones style is different, and if you chose to you could become lethal from a "defensive" position. You never know whats coming and you never know how 100% of your opponents will react.

Really bad analogies. I'll try to improve them though it's clear you didn't understand what he was trying to say. You should read the transcript.

In the NFL, teams don't back-lateral like crazy on every single play. There have been instances where this has back-lateraling mayhem has gotten a team the W in the final seconds but just because it works sometimes doesn't mean it will always work or that it's the best course of action. No learned coach would want his team to be the position to rely on a hail Mary or back-lateral mayhem. It's low percentage and there is a reason coaches use west coast offense less in general than a predominant running game mixed with intelligent pass plays.

Ryan is saying that it's crazy to want to use the Hail Mary over and over even if he's tapping out weekend warriors who know very little compared to him. He realizes Hail Marys won't keep working against the cream of the crop. Why would you willingly put yourself in that situation when you can keep running the ball and getting first downs and eventually getting touchdowns.

You got the hockey example the other way around. Ryan is saying it's dumb to take your keeper out of the game and that strategy of using more attackers will only work against an elementary school hockey team. Your lack of goalkeeping in grappling will eventually get exposed by someone with a solid defense that can counterattack and get the puck in the back of the net systematically.

 

[FirstNobleTruth]

Good food for thought.

 

[Galahad]

Can any of you guys who attended a Rickson seminar or trains under Ryan please give some insight into this modified shrimp?

 

[Doh!]

Really bad analogies. I'll try to improve them though it's clear you didn't understand what he was trying to say. You should read the transcript.

In the NFL, teams don't back-lateral like crazy on every single play. There have been instances where this has back-lateraling mayhem has gotten a team the W in the final seconds but just because it works sometimes doesn't mean it will always work or that it's the best course of action. No learned coach would want his team to be the position to rely on a hail Mary or back-lateral mayhem. It's low percentage and there is a reason coaches use west coast offense less in general than a predominant running game mixed with intelligent pass plays.

Ryan is saying that it's crazy to want to use the Hail Mary over and over even if he's tapping out weekend warriors who know very little compared to him. He realizes Hail Marys won't keep working against the cream of the crop. Why would you willingly put yourself in that situation when you can keep running the ball and getting first downs and eventually getting touchdowns.

You got the hockey example the other way around. Ryan is saying it's dumb to take your keeper out of the game and that strategy of using more attackers will only work against an elementary school hockey team. Your lack of goalkeeping in grappling will eventually get exposed by someone with a solid defense that can counterattack and get the puck in the back of the net systematically.

This post sums up Ryan's point of view, I think. Very well put.

 

[fiftysvn]

lol I don't even understand why there is a need for these convoluted analogies. I thought what Ryan said was pretty straight forward.

 

[Mikey Triangles]

lol I don't even understand why there is a need for these convoluted analogies. I thought what Ryan said was pretty straight forward.

No, you don't get it.

Let's say Ryan Hall is like Marklar on the planet Markler. In the Marklar, Marklars don't Marklar like crazy on every single Marklar. There have been instances where this has Marklar mayhem has gotten a Marklar the Marklar in the final seconds but just because it works sometimes doesn't mean it will always work or that it's the best course of action. No learned Marklar would want his Marklar to be the position to rely on a Marklar or Marklar mayhem. It's low percentage and there is a reason Marklars use Marklar offense less in general than a predominant running game mixed with intelligent Marklar plays.

you see what he means

 

[AboveThisFire]

No, you don't get it.

Let's say Ryan Hall is like Marklar on the planet Markler. In the Marklar, Marklars don't Marklar like crazy on every single Marklar. There have been instances where this has Marklar mayhem has gotten a Marklar the Marklar in the final seconds but just because it works sometimes doesn't mean it will always work or that it's the best course of action. No learned Marklar would want his Marklar to be the position to rely on a Marklar or Marklar mayhem. It's low percentage and there is a reason Marklars use Marklar offense less in general than a predominant running game mixed with intelligent Marklar plays.

you see what he means

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand /thread.

 

[TastyLumpia]

No, you don't get it.

Let's say Ryan Hall is like Marklar on the planet Markler. In the Marklar, Marklars don't Marklar like crazy on every single Marklar. There have been instances where this has Marklar mayhem has gotten a Marklar the Marklar in the final seconds but just because it works sometimes doesn't mean it will always work or that it's the best course of action. No learned Marklar would want his Marklar to be the position to rely on a Marklar or Marklar mayhem. It's low percentage and there is a reason Marklars use Marklar offense less in general than a predominant running game mixed with intelligent Marklar plays.

you see what he means

I beg to differ. In the case of a Marklar, those who have a tendency to Marklar more than other Marklars do so because they have a Marklar advantage that generally give them more Marklars than other Marklars. In the Marklar sense, the Marklar IS high percentage and the Marklar that use less Marklars than other Marklars do so because they don't have the advanced Marklar skills to execute running Marklars at a high level.

Therefore, Ryan Hall's generalizations do not apply in a Marklar context.

 

[MickCollins]

Does anyone have a vid or description of this Rickson/Danaher style proper shrimp?

 

[knoxpk]

Ryan has a fantastic guard game - maybe even over-developed some would say. With as good as his guard is, I believe he is saying it has become more difficult to succeed with submissions from there at the highest level - and I'm not in a position to disagree with him. Nor will I likely ever be.

He tells us in class that there are some people with a well developed specific position, but that few people who primarily have a "bottom game" are considered one of the best (i.e. ADCC gold medalist or multiple time Black Belt Mundial medalist). He says that although there are those elite grapplers who have taken a guard position to an extraordinary level and succeed against other elite grapplers, that for most people of average to good athletic ability and average to good flexibility and average to good (insert here) - simple mechanics trumps all. It seems that the majority of elite grapplers are dangerous from everywhere but they prefer to be on top - and Ryan is simply pointing out that his experience has led him to see that this cohesion of thought at the highest level is not an accident.

That said, I don't think Ryan is advocating that guard submissions will "cease to exist". It was about June when Ryan realized he hadn't emphasized the guard enough in class at our gym while watching some of us compete at a tournament. Then and there he decided that he would drop his current curriculum and focus solely on guard for the entire next month. You are overthinking what he is saying. He expects all of his students to have a good guard but he only advocates pulling guard when your opponent has superior take down skills or as a specific strategy to win a given match. And you better believe that if he tells you to pull guard he expects you to do so and succeed. His point is not to say that guard submissions are useless but simply to explain his experience has taught him that the traditional way of viewing and teaching the guard is not sufficient at the elite level. That is all.

Perhaps, if the grapplers he chooses to emulate had his ability to explain concepts in English - they would say the same things. But most people who speak English as a first language are unable to articulate as well as Ryan therefore we can't expect those who have English as a second, third, or fourth language to follow suit in the same manner.

Thanks for the input, I am going to assume that you train with Mr. hall.

In light of the explanation I have a few questions for you.
Are the takedowns trained often and consistently at the club?
Do you guys grapple from the feet or knees at the end of class?
What is Ryans philosophy of conceded the takedown?
In other words, if someone shoots and is in deep does he advocate pulling guard immediately from here or does he sprawl, followed by a whizzer before pulling guard etc... ?