International Russia/Ukraine Megathread V15

[ChessJitsu]

No, its a strictly matter of improving the living conditions of its citizens.


US sponsored Hitler now?


China isn't sanctioned by the US.

You honestly think that the chief difference between dictatorships US favors and the ones it doesn't favors is concern for the living conditions of the citizens?

Here's a quick Google AI search result, you can do your own research on how many millions of people suffered death and repression following these unilateral interventions.

Here are some examples of U.S.-backed dictatorships:

• Guatemala (1954):
  The U.S. orchestrated a coup to overthrow the democratically elected President Jacobo Árbenz, who was perceived as a threat due to his land reforms and ties to communism. The coup installed a military dictatorship led by Carlos Castillo Armas.
  
  
• Chile (1973):
  The U.S. supported a coup against the democratically elected socialist President Salvador Allende, leading to the establishment of the authoritarian regime of Augusto Pinochet.
  
  
• • Brazil (1964):
    The U.S. provided logistical support and potentially intimidating naval forces during a military coup that ousted President João Goulart, leading to a long period of military rule.
  • Haiti (1991, 2004):
    The U.S. was involved in coups that ousted President Jean-Bertrand Aristide, contributing to instability and violence.
  • South Vietnam (1963):
    The U.S. supported a coup against President Ngo Dinh Diem, who was assassinated the next day.
  • Cuba (pre-1959):
    The U.S. supported the authoritarian regime of Fulgencio Batista, which was overthrown by the Cuban Revolution led by Fidel Castro.
  • Congo (1960):
    The U.S. supported the coup against Patrice Lumumba, the first democratically elected prime minister of the Congo, and his subsequent assassination.

And also, China is sanctioned by the US:

United States sanctions against China - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The thing about China is, however, the US is greatly limited in the proportion of sanctions it can impose on China because it's dealing with a globally-integrated superpower now.

Like the economic scale of China is actually bigger than the economic scale of the Soviet Union. It's crazy.

 

[Rod1]

You honestly think that the chief difference between dictatorships US favors and the ones it doesn't favors is concern for the living conditions of the citizens?

No, i think the chief difference is whether they are hostile to the US or not.

 

[ChessJitsu]

Just looked at that US-China sanctions page on wikipedia, and I think if you try to think critically you can form some conclusion from US-China sanctions timeline lolol:

• Sanctions in the early PRC (1949–1979) | this is literally the era of Soviet Union & China partnership against the West
• 1972-1988: minimal sanctions | this is literally when China began to have land conflict and hostilities with the Soviet Union
• 1988: reimposition and increase in sanctions as China begins its path towards superpower ascension

Like, this is crazy. China's regime remained the same. For better or for worse, it remained the same country (just getting richer and richer).... yet the rhetoric and stance the US has towards it has been changing based on... you guessed it, the practical interests of the United States and its geopolitical landscape at the time.

Concerns for hundreds of millions of people in China living in poverty? Nope.

Concern for actual democracy and human rights? Nope.

Cold, pragmatic, self-interest? Always. 100% of the time.

And before anyone asks how this is relevant to the Russia/Ukraine crisis, I implore you to think deeper.

To continually box this topic into a pathological and narrow-minded vitriol against Russia is like discussing the tragic Korean civil war and criticizing everyone who brought up the broader Cold War between the USSR/China & the West at that time.

History​

Due to concerns about national security and human rights, the United States has gradually increased sanctions against Chinese businesses and organizations. As of July 2023, 721 Chinese businesses, organizations, and individuals have been added to the United States Department of Commerce's Entity List that restricts their ability to purchase goods from the United States.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_sanctions_against_China#cite_note-1"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a>[<em><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#Chronological_items" title="Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers"><span title="This information is in need of an update. (June 2025)">needs update</span></a></em>]

​

After the establishment of Communist rule in China in 1949, an embargo against the sale of military technology or infrastructure, previously levied against the Soviet Union, was expanded to include the newly established People's Republic of China.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_sanctions_against_China#cite_note-2"><span>[</span>2<span>]</span></a> Following the onset of the Korean War, further trade restrictions were imposed.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_sanctions_against_China#cite_note-3"><span>[</span>3<span>]</span></a> According to academic Chun Lin, the embargo resulted in increased Chinese nationalism.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_sanctions_against_China#cite_note-4"><span>[</span>4<span>]</span></a>

The trade embargo was lifted under President Richard Nixon in 1972 right before the opening of China and establishment of official relations.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_sanctions_against_China#cite_note-5"><span>[</span>5<span>]</span></a>

Sanctions after the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre​

Further information: Reactions to the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre
Following the Tiananmen Square massacre, the Bush Sr. administration imposed an arms embargo against the PRC after the massacre of the protesters.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_sanctions_against_China#cite_note-6"><span>[</span>6<span>]</span></a>

 

[San Marino]

Trump disregard for respect and European interest is the reason why.

What disregard for respect? Did Joe Biden have any respect?
Joe Biden is a big part of the reason Russia invaded Ukraine. A weak president. Even Putin admits to that.
Europe has no say in a Trump, Putin, Zelensky discussion. If that is what they want, they should have done it back in 2022.

 

[ChessJitsu]

No, i think the chief difference is whether they are hostile to the US or not.

So you think that in all of those cases, the point of hostility immediately begins on those government sides rather than the West?

The authoritarian regimes pop up and immediately start to rage against the West and that's when the US decides to either make their countries miserable or not?

Don't you think it's relevant that in a lot of those cases, the governments get punished and targeted literally for deciding to pursue economic and political relations with as many countries that they can instead of just the West?

Don't you see evidence that in a lot of those cases, the governments lose favor in the West for not immediately and recklessly signing away resource and development deals with Western businesses?

Sounds like... a complex system of economic exploitation and repression.

Sounds like... a form of neo-colonialism practiced by literally the same exact countries that have been doing it for hundreds of years.

Sounds like... the Washington deep-state, Britain, France are still keeping the 2nd/3rd world down to feed their luxurious living standards and constantly expanding economic machines.

The rest of the world isn't naive enough to think that something happened in the 1950s and suddenly the West is good and everyone else is bad and in need of democratization and enlightenment.

A point-blank overview of facts lays out the perspective clearly.

 

[San Marino]

You're literally following fantasy channels on YouTube. They have them on both sides.

Damn!
Poor @Strychnine is now posting twice the number of videos he was posting before. Getting desperate.
Maybe if he keeps posting enough videos, people will believe Ukraine is winning this conflict. A small victory here, another small victory there.
Truth be told, 70% of the victories are Russian victories in Ukraine. But we won't be seeing any of those videos.

Tough call on who posts nonstop shit and propaganda on this thread. @Strychnine or @SandisLL.

 

[Rod1]

So you think that in all of those cases, the point of hostility immediately begins on those government sides rather than the West?

I mean your "source" claims that the US sponsored Hitler and that it was a pro-West dictator.

The authoritarian regimes pop up and immediately start to rage against the West and that's when the US decides to either make their countries miserable or not?

"make those countries miserable or not"

Most of these countries are doing it by themselves.

Don't you think it's relevant that in a lot of those cases, the governments get punished and targeted literally for deciding to pursue economic and political relations with as many countries that they can instead of just the West?

Give me a recent example.

Don't you see evidence that in a lot of those cases, the governments lose favor in the West for not immediately and recklessly signing away resource and development deals with Western businesses?

Such as?

Sounds like... a complex system of economic exploitation and repression.

Ok

Sounds like... a form of neo-colonialism practiced by literally the same exact countries that have been doing it for hundreds of years.

Sounds like... the US, Britain, France are still keeping the 2nd/3rd world down to feed their luxurious living standards and constantly expanding economic machines.

Rich countries make for better trade partners.

The rest of the world isn't naive enough to think that something happened in the 1950s and suddenly the West is good and everyone else is bad and in need of democratization and enlightenment.

A point-blank overview of facts lays out the perspective clearly.

The vast majority of the world also supports living in a free democratic society, this has nothing to do with the West.

 

[San Marino]

Edit: and fuckin el oh el at saying Russia should have invaded Finland good lord.

Good Lord!
...and to think the US invaded Iraq for nothing. All based on lies. How much money and how many lives wasted?

 

[Rod1]

Like, this is crazy. China's regime remained the same.

No it didn't.

 

[Limbo Pete]

Good Lord!
...and to think the US invaded Iraq for nothing. All based on lies. How much money and how many lives wasted?

"The US invaded Iraq... something something Russia should invade Finland!"

 

[San Marino]

He still pretended that Russia invaded Ukraine because of NATO aggression and that Russia would never invade a neighbor unprovoked.

Pretend?
Is that not one of the reasons Russia invaded Ukraine? NATO membership?
Ukraine did provoke Russia into this invasion.
How about Joe Biden? Did he not say a small Russian incursion into Ukraine would be okay with him? A brilliant moment for our old, dilapidated president. Even Putin admitted that had Trump been president in 2022, Russia would not have invaded Ukraine.

 

[ChessJitsu]

I mean your "source" claims that the US sponsored Hitler and that it was a pro-West dictator.


"make those countries miserable or not"

Most of these countries are doing it by themselves.



Give me a recent example.



Such as?



Ok


Rich countries make for better trade partners.


The vast majority of the world also supports living in a free democratic society, this has nothing to do with the West.

India's been hit with tariffs & sanctions for doing business with Russia while the West continues to do business with similar aggressors.

Why wouldn't India do business with any country that helps it climb out of poverty?

Huge and immediate double standard but that's an example.

I don't think the vast majority of people around the world care that much about Western-style democracy by the way.

That is, democracy as the West defines it.

Most people just want to see their communities improve. For their living standards to rise.

Western-style democracy is a rhetorical device and connotation for West-approved governments.

Both Bautista and Castro were brutal dictators, but the US particularly hated and targeted the one that wanted to do business with the Soviet Union.

 

[SandisLL]

1. Ukaine had a potential path to NATO.

2. Yes, Russia shares a tiny NATO border with Norway, as you mentioned. Invasion of a NATO country is out-of-the-question, hence the strong security interest in keeping neighboring countries from joining NATO if relations with the massive military alliance is questionable.

3. The result of Finland & Sweden joining NATO is one of the several reasons the Ukraine invasion was a huge blunder for Russia.

4. There is no threat of NATO invading Russia today, but geopolitical considerations take into account possibilities hundreds of years into the future. I'm not going to go into great detail, but with the Western economies dwarfing Russia and Russia's growth not being too impressive, the technological gap between the West and Russia will only grow wider and wider. Just casually allowing neighboring states to join NATO as this gap widens is like playing chess and just casually letting your opponent gain pawn advantages over you again and again until you're going in to the middle game with a -5 or bigger material disadvantage.

It's okay to feel differently about stuff but I don't understand how a lot of Europeans on this board don't even make an attempt to be open-minded or put themselves in different people's shoes.

It's just hate and bigotry 24/7.

Ukraine had potential path and still 0 chances.
Ofc for propagandists world is different...

Obiviously you don't know NATO charters and admission processes, nor also european realpolitik. Orban does knows...

Ukr had chance to join NATO maybe in your and ukr dreams.

However yes, obiviously for Ukraine for safety better had been not to play cinema scenes about joining NATO...ofc for their voters cinema dreams had worked.
For you too.

In Ukrainian question west always had appeased Russia and Putin. It is reality.
Ofc you can't see reality.

NATO had treated ukraine considerably worse than for example Morocco or Egypt.
They aren't NATO countries and still west had sold them heavy weaponary. Unlike for Ukr...
Still zelensky administration kept to live in dreams....
Ofc zelensky administration is specific delusion level dreamers....
Also obiviously you don't know NATO charters nor admission process, not alone nuances.... I do know, Orban does knows and Putin too....

Interestingly how delusional still is ukr administration.....BTW they really needs woke up in reality.


And yes, ukraine is stupid.
Therefore ofc for Pytin is lucrative to use for public like you NATO stuff as excuse and you believe ...you will not change your opinion btw too, nothing wrong.

 

[San Marino]

Furthermore, there isn't actually any threat of NATO invading Russia anyway. The analogy flops, as I said, for multiple reasons.

Right.
There wasn't actually any threat of Soviet nuclear missiles in Cuba being fired at the US anyway.
The analogy flops for multiple reasons.
Kennedy was just having a stupid hissy fit.

 

[ChessJitsu]

Ukraine had potential path and still 0 chances.
Ofc for propagandists world is different...

Obiviously you don't know NATO charters and admission processes, nor also european realpolitik. Orban does knows...

Ukr had chance to join NATO maybe in your and ukr dreams.

However yes, obiviously for Ukraine for safety better had been not to play cinema scenes about joining NATO...ofc for their voters cinema dreams had worked.
For you too.

In Ukrainian question west always had appeased Russia and Putin. It is reality.
Ofc you can't see reality.

NATO had treated ukraine considerably worse than for example Morocco or Egypt.
They aren't NATO countries and still west had sold them heavy weaponary. Unlike for Ukr...
Still zelensky administration kept to live in dreams....
Ofc zelensky administration is specific delusion level dreamers....
Also obiviously you don't know NATO charters nor admission process, not alone nuances.... I do know, Orban does knows and Putin too....

Interestingly how delusional still is ukr administration.....BTW they really needs woke up in reality.


And yes, ukraine is stupid.
Therefore ofc for Pytin is lucrative to use for public like you NATO stuff as excuse and you believe ...you will not change your opinion btw too, nothing wrong.

I have no idea dude, maybe you don't know either.

We're just regular people talking on the internet, using public information.

State actors are dealing with intelligence information. It's a different world.

 

[Limbo Pete]

Right.
There wasn't actually any threat of Soviet nuclear missiles in Cuba being fired at the US anyway.
The analogy flops for multiple reasons.
Kennedy was just having a stupid hissy fit.

It's your fucking analogy lmao

 

[San Marino]

Neither Russia nor any NATO country is concerned about a NATO invasion of Russia. It's extremely disingenuous to suggest otherwise. The real political reality at play is a need (and desire) for what authoritarians always want: more of everything.

Why does NATO keep moving eastward?
In February 1990, Gorbachev was promised by than US Secretary of State Baker that NATO would not move 1" eastward if the Soviet Union dissolved. The Soviet Union did dissolve, and NATO moved miles closer to Russia.

 

[San Marino]

You (@Limbo Pete) are sick of it because you're firmly rooted to one side and hate others who might disagree with you.

Considering the ultimate statistical fact that more civilians died in Israel's assault of Palestinians for a time-window 4 times shorter than the Russian-Ukraine war, in a geographic and population scope much smaller than Ukraine, and the fact that Israel continues to receive unwavering support from the West (and rhetorical support from Ukraine)- any attempt to not paint this entire crisis as a RealPolitik conflict between multiple sides pursuing their self-interests is immature and dishonest.

Priceless!

 

[Limbo Pete]

Why does NATO keep moving eastward?

Countries join NATO - voluntarily, might I add - because they don't want to go through what Russia is doing to Ukraine right now lol

 

[San Marino]

okay... why does everything have to be an argument instead of a discussion?

...the day you figure that out, please let me know.

This thread was hijacked by pro-Ukraine sympathizers and left-wing liberals back in 2023.
It has mostly turned to shit.
We had some great members that would post the pro-Russia side, but they are now mostly gone due to mockery and insults.
Also, a very bad, weak, and biased moderator.
@aerius was a great addition to the discussion. He still posts now and again.