International Russia/Ukraine Megathread V13

[The XL]

Nobody wants to fight in a war.

Children have been forced to fight in wars.
Old men have been forced to fight in wars.

The nature of wars is... they force people to fight.

Underclass children and underclass old men. Politicians and other elites choose not to. Why would anyone in there right mind choose to make the ultimate sacrifice when the people who basically control the country and ultimately benefit from it refuse to? If women, politicians, the wealthy and their families were forced to fight in wars, you'd see a lot less wars. These wars are started over geopolitical bullshit that the people that fight them have no control over. Let the wealthy and the powerful fight.

 

[Denter]

I'm not sure this statement on the article is correct. If so, I don't think it applies to all Russian units in theater. The OGRT has been mentioned as rotating once every six months. I believe the rest are in it for the duration. I believe those one-year draft contracts are out the window during wartime. Similar to the US 'stop-loss' program during Iraq and Afghanistan when we (US) began to have a shortage of manpower in theater. We had no draft. The US Army and Marines began to give big bonuses for anyone from the Navy and Air Force to switch branches. Standards were lowered (like now) to help recruit people. There was a short period when officers were direct commissioned. No ROTC or OCS.

Yeah makes sense. I've read they've also raised pay for contract soldiers by a lot, to be much higher than average pay in Russia. I think Russia knows conscripts would be basically useless, and are paying well because it's just a frank market rate for a dangerous job.

 

[Denter]

I think it was posted earlier, but its been estimated that 10% of Ukrainians are already in the military so the available pool of manpower is small and they are facing enlistment shortages for months. Russia is trying hard not to go the draft route and Ukraine needs to pile on the pressure during this offensive to force Putin to make the unpopular move.

I've seen quotes of 700k active duty AFU right now.

 

[Deleted member 585708]

Underclass children and underclass old men. Politicians and other elites choose not to. Why would anyone in there right mind choose to make the ultimate sacrifice when the people who basically control the country and ultimately benefit from it refuse to? If women, politicians, the wealthy and their families were forced to fight in wars, you'd see a lot less wars. These wars are started over geopolitical bullshit that the people that fight them have no control over. Let the wealthy and the powerful fight.

Basic capitalism fault-finding.

The leader and their family don't fight in the wars or work in the factories.

I think we all know this by now.

Does that mean the wars don't need fighting and the country doesn't need factories to produce anything?

I'm not sure what the point is other than the obvious inequalities at play?

And I'm not a capitalist, so you're gonna have to lay it on me here: what's your point, caller?

 

[The XL]

Basic capitalism fault-finding.

The leader and their family don't fight in the wars or work in the factories.

I think we all know this by now.

Does that mean the wars don't need fighting and the country doesn't need factories to produce anything?

I'm not sure what the point is other than the obvious inequalities at play?

And I'm not a capitalist, so you're gonna have to lay it on me here: what's your point, caller?

What it means is these people should put themselves and their families first ahead of 'country.' You can be sure that's what government and elites do. The fact that these elites have absolutely no skin in the game yet can force men to their deaths while they reap the profits and glory also shows that their system of government is essentially an oligarchy. No man has any reason to respect the rule of a system of government where the rules are not applied equally and where they have no say.

Conscription is only legitimate when it applies to everybody. And on the issue of sacrifice, the vast majority of the wealth of all millionaires and billionaires should be taken to fund the war effort, repair damages to the country, and be given as compensation to the soldiers and their families. I am not a fan of wealth confiscation, but I'm even less of a fan of conscription.

Ultimately, issue here is that the power is not with the Ukrainian people, which is why they're forced to make sacrifices and their elites are not. The system needs a considerable overall before it can be deemed fair and just.

 

[Deleted member 585708]

What it means is these people should put themselves and their families first ahead of 'country.' You can be sure that's what government and elites do. The fact that these elites have absolutely no skin in the game yet can force men to their deaths while they reap the profits and glory also shows that their system of government is essentially an oligarchy. No man has any reason to respect the rule of a system of government where the rules are not applied equally and where they have no say.

Conscription is only legitimate when it applies to everybody. And on the issue of sacrifice, the vast majority of the wealth of all millionaires and billionaires should be taken to fund the war effort, repair damages to the country, and be given as compensation to the soldiers and their families. I am not a fan of wealth confiscation, but I'm even less of a fan of conscription.

Ultimately, issue here is that the power is not with the Ukrainian people, which is why they're forced to make sacrifices and their elites are not. The system needs a considerable overall before it can be deemed fair and just.

Why are you talking about Ukraine, specifically?

Your entire argument crumbles to dust.

Russia invaded Ukraine.

Russia forced Ukraine to defend itself.

So now you're complaining about Ukraine forcefully defending itself?

Dude, what the fuck?

Is your argument that Ukraine should not bother conscripting people, and be de-facto steamrolled by a professional army, thus those same families die anway?

What sense does that make, and why would you bother making such a nonsensical point?

I get your ideology: nobody likes class-based capitalism except dumb-dumbs... but in practice, surely you see this argument is utter nonsense?

 

[Ruthless Ryan]

What it means is these people should put themselves and their families first ahead of 'country.' You can be sure that's what government and elites do. The fact that these elites have absolutely no skin in the game yet can force men to their deaths while they reap the profits and glory also shows that their system of government is essentially an oligarchy. No man has any reason to respect the rule of a system of government where the rules are not applied equally and where they have no say.

Conscription is only legitimate when it applies to everybody. And on the issue of sacrifice, the vast majority of the wealth of all millionaires and billionaires should be taken to fund the war effort, repair damages to the country, and be given as compensation to the soldiers and their families. I am not a fan of wealth confiscation, but I'm even less of a fan of conscription.

Ultimately, issue here is that the power is not with the Ukrainian people, which is why they're forced to make sacrifices and their elites are not. The system needs a considerable overall before it can be deemed fair and just.

You live in a world of peaches and puppies...the real world is a tad different ...

 

[The XL]

Why are you talking about Ukraine, specifically?

Your entire argument crumbles to dust.

Russia invaded Ukraine.

Russia forced Ukraine to defend itself.

So now you're complaining about Ukraine forcefully defending itself?

Dude, what the fuck?

Is your argument that Ukraine should not bother conscripting people, and be de-facto steamrolled by a professional army, thus those same families die anway?

What sense does that make, and why would you bother making such a nonsensical point?

I get your ideology: nobody likes class-based capitalism except dumb-dumbs... but in practice, surely you see this argument is utter nonsense?

Here's my deal. If sacrifice needs to be made, everyone should share in the sacrifice. That isn't the current status quo. Fuck that. Who are these people to play God, spare themselves and their families, and in some cases even profit off of it? If I'm the average Ukrainian, I'm not having that noise, sorry.

 

[Anewt]

18 year olds were forced to fight for the Allies in WW2. You don't need to support that to want the Nazis to be defeated.

Your logic is juvenile.

Actually in ww2

The ages for usa were between 21 and 45 to register for the draft.

Australia ages were 18 - 35 when conscription was used . ( mid 1942 after quite a few years of fighting in ww2 without ) hell at the beginning you couldn't even join to fight at 18.

The age limits set for enlistment in the Second Australian Imperial Force (AIF) in 1939 were 20 to 35 for recruits, higher for officers and some NCOs. The maximum was raised to 40 in 1940, and the minimum lowered to 19 in 1941, and 18 in 1943; written parental consent was required for anyone under the age of 21.


Which is why there was a lot of lying to join the army by young men.

Uk draft at the beginning of ww2 was only single men 20 to 22 years old were liable to be called up, and they were to be known as "militiamen" to distinguish them from the regular army.

By 1942 all male British subjects between 18 and 51 years old and all females 20 to 30 years old resident in Great Britain and the Isle of Man were liable to be called up, with some exemptions.


Fuck conscription imo, if it's worth fighting for people will fight. If it's not worth fighting for force will be required.

So yeah I guess you're correct that 18 year olds were forced to fight for the Allies, but only 3 to 4 years after the war had waged on.

Hell if you wanted to join at 18 you were rejected by some " Allied" nations.

 

[The XL]

You live in a world of peaches and puppies...the real world is a tad different ...

I'm well aware of what the real world is. The real world is the elite playing God with the common person. I understand what it is, I just refuse to accept it as moral and legitimate.

 

[Deleted member 585708]

Here's my deal. If sacrifice needs to be made, everyone should share in the sacrifice. That isn't the current status quo. Fuck that. Who are these people to play God, spare themselves and their families, and in some cases even profit off of it? If I'm the average Ukrainian, I'm not having that noise, sorry.

They're elevated nobodies.

But if you're the average Ukrainian, you are having that noise because the incoming noise is so much worse for you.

You do realize the incoming noise for Ukrainians is Russian overlords, right?

You're argument is kinda pathetic.

 

[Blayt7hh]

Being sent to your death is a bit different from paying taxes. I pay taxes.

I would compare it more to the feudal system of the Polish Kingdom. It is only the modern day peasants fighting on the frontlines. Funny enough, the concept of Ukraine was born out of disregard for feudal law. It being law didn't mean that it should be obeyed.

None of you guys actually care about Ukrainians. That's rather obvious. You care about Russia losing and I guess western hegemony. Not that any of that matters as none of you have any influence whatsoever and so you just froth at the mouth day in and day out in this mega-thread.

I went to a Ukrainian festival here in Canada that I go to yearly and was shocked by the number of fighting age males that made it here. Hope to see a lot more next year.

Those guys fled their country. Meanwhile in Ukraine, Russians are stealing children from families in occupied territories and sending them to live elsewhere in Russia. They are targeting entire towns and cities with indiscriminate shelling. They are destroying entire cities like Bahkmut.

Unless those guys have health conditions we don't know about, they're cowards. They left their entire communities behind at the mercy of the invaders. They've abandoned their culture and the real hypocrisy here is that they're out their celebrating the culture they've left to live or die in the hands of other men. The irony is not lost on me that you're on here trying to act holier than the rest of us, as the one who "actually cares about Ukranians", while saying you hope more of them abandon their country to die. STFU you aren't fooling anyone with this gaslighting nonsense.

This is where the buck stops. You're in here complaining about how the thread sucks. It doesn't suck; you suck. You came in here, said some really stupid shit and then got your peepee slapped by a bunch of posters when you couldn't levy a legitimate defense to your stance. Now, like many other halfwits before you, you cry about it. Instead of bitching out, maybe just reevaluate your shitty position.

 

[The XL]

They're elevated nobodies.

But if you're the average Ukrainian, you are having that noise because the incoming noise is so much worse for you.

You do realize the incoming noise for Ukrainians is Russian overlords, right?

You're argument is kinda pathetic.

If you're the average Ukrainian, you're fucked either way for as long as you're in Ukraine.

My argument is let people choose what they want to do. If they want to fight they will. If they don't want to, they shouldn't have to. Who the fuck is anyone to play God? Especially when they themselves aren't willing to make any sacrifices.

 

[Denter]

You live in a world of peaches and puppies...the real world is a tad different ...

America doesn't have wars; it has moral panics. Imagine if this was viewed as frankly what it is: two countries fighting over a third country to include as a client state. Well, that kinda takes the fun out of it.

Although I do think, long term, the great mass conscription armies of 1793-1970 are done with.

 

[The XL]

America doesn't have wars; it has moral panics. Imagine if this was viewed as frankly what it is: two countries fighting over a third country to include as a client state. Well, that kinda takes the fun out of it.

Although I do think, long term, the great mass conscription armies of 1793-1970 are done with.

They're done in America because Americans at large would outright refuse them. It's a shame the Russian people don't have the same perspective. Then again, they're poor and impotent so it would be a lot harder for them to tell their government to get fucked.

 

[Deleted member 585708]

If you're the average Ukrainian, you're fucked either way for as long as you're in Ukraine.

My argument is let people choose what they want to do. If they want to fight they will. If they don't want to, they shouldn't have to. Who the fuck is anyone to play God? Especially when they themselves aren't willing to make any sacrifices.

If the UK was invaded by an aggressor and the dumb-dumb next door was like "Yeah, but I don't like fighting", I'd go and defend my country, but specifically not for them.

Those kinds of cowards want an easy life with their champagne morality that only works when things are going well.

I wouldn't necessarily drag them out of their garden and force them to join the army, but I wouldn't give a fuck if someone else did.

I'd feel the same way about some elite kid, too, by the way.

You don't pussy out of defending your country because "but conscription is mean" when it's literally life and death and you've got a family who can't fight.

Unfortunately you can't control your enemy.

If they force your hand, play your hand.

 

[Bojka]

Those guys fled their country. Meanwhile in Ukraine, Russians are stealing children from families in occupied territories and sending them to live elsewhere in Russia. They are targeting entire towns and cities with indiscriminate shelling. They are destroying entire cities like Bahkmut.

Unless those guys have health conditions we don't know about, they're cowards. They left their entire communities behind at the mercy of the invaders. They've abandoned their culture and the real hypocrisy here is that they're out their celebrating the culture they've left to live or die in the hands of other men. The irony is not lost on me that you're on here trying to act holier than the rest of us, as the one who "actually cares about Ukranians", while saying you hope more of them abandon their country to die. STFU you aren't fooling anyone with this gaslighting nonsense.

This is where the buck stops. You're in here complaining about how the thread sucks. It doesn't suck; you suck. You came in here, said some really stupid shit and then got your peepee slapped by a bunch of posters when you couldn't levy a legitimate defense to your stance. Now, like many other halfwits before you, you cry about it. Instead of bitching out, maybe just reevaluate your shitty position.

It's a Ukrainian heritage festival so it doesn't have much to do with modern Ukraine. Has more to do with its history. This thread is full of people like you who have personality disorders and 2 digit IQs. I avoided it for the most part for over a year for a reason.

 

[The XL]

If the UK was invaded by an aggressor and the dumb-dumb next door was like "Yeah, but I don't like fighting", I'd go and defend my country, but specifically not for them.

Those kinds of cowards want an easy life with their champagne morality that only works when things are going well.

I wouldn't necessarily drag them out of their garden and force them to join the army, but I wouldn't give a fuck if someone else did.

I'd feel the same way about some elite kid, too, by the way.

You don't pussy out of defending your country because "but conscription is mean" when it's literally life and death and you've got a family who can't fight.

Unfortunately you can't control your enemy.

The UK is a country that can defend itself long term, so it makes sense to want to fight for it. They also have a considerably different culture and ethnic makeup than Russians, unlike Ukraine. Ukraine has absolute no chance long term as a country for as long as they're at odds with Russia. I'm not saying it's right and I know it's not what people want to hear, but it's the truth. While Russia might not be the global tier power it once was, it's a regional tier powerhouse that has the advantage long term over Ukraine. And even if Ukraine holds out and survives this war, they're just going to be attacked again. If I'm the average Ukraine man, why the fuck am I going to die for that? Zelesky and his family aren't going to, that's for sure.

 

[Blayt7hh]

It's a Ukrainian heritage festival so it doesn't have much to do with modern Ukraine. This thread is full of people like you who have personality disorders and 2 digit IQs. I avoided it for the most part for over a year for a reason.

You’ve got nothing to say. Stop derailing and see yourself out then.

Also, your insult game is weak dude. If that’s the best you got then I would definitely recommend you don’t bring up other people’s intelligence

 

[Deleted member 585708]

The UK is a country that can defend itself long term, so it makes sense to want to fight for it. They also have a considerably different culture and ethnic makeup than Russians, unlike Ukraine. Ukraine has absolute no chance long term as a country for as long as they're at odds with Russia. I'm not saying it's right and I know it's not what people want to hear, but it's the truth. While Russia might not be the global tier power it once was, it's a regional tier powerhouse that has the advantage long term over Ukraine. And even if Ukraine holds out and survives this war, they're just going to be attacked again. If I'm the average Ukraine man, why the fuck am I going to die for that? Zelesky and his family aren't going to, that's for sure.

Oh.

So you have a pessimistic outlook.

Due to this pessimistic outlook, everyone should give up.