International Russia/Ukraine Megathread V10

[Videer]

NATO soldiers aren’t directly involved. Elons an idiot.

You know it is fake when it does not include all the NATO generals captured from Azovstal bunkers.

 

[The XL]

For Ukrainians, what is the alternative?

I genuinely don't understand this mentality.

Let those who want to fight do so. Let those who wish to not fight either flee or stay in Ukraine and not be obligated to fight. Not everyone is meant for combat, for a variety of reasons.

 

[Limbo Pete]

For Ukrainians, what is the alternative?

I genuinely don't understand this mentality.

Well it's attractive as rhetorically safe way to criticize Ukraine. If you want to do a bothsides without explicitly doing a bothsides, then here's a fairly sure footed route.

 

[Deleted member 585708]

Let those who want to fight do so. Let those who wish to not fight either flee or stay in Ukraine and not be obligated to fight. Not everyone is meant for combat, for a variety of reasons.

I don't think that's viable, at all.

If you're defending your own soil, your country itself, as a nation, conscription is absolutely necessary when fighting against a larger force unfortunately.

Being against conscription is a nice idea, but it isn't real life.

 

[The XL]

Well it's attractive as rhetorically safe way to criticize Ukraine. If you want to do a bothsides without explicitly doing a bothsides, then here's a fairly sure footed route.

Some people genuinely don't have a horse in the race and have criticisms of both sides and their treatment of their people. I understand a concept like that is foreign to you.

 

[Limbo Pete]

Some people genuinely don't have a horse in the race and have criticisms of both sides and their treatment of their people. I understand a concept like that is foreign to you.

 

[The XL]

I don't think that's viable, at all.

If you're defending your own soil, your country itself, as a nation, conscription is absolutely necessary when fighting against a larger force unfortunately.

Being against conscription is a nice idea, but it isn't real life.

Dress it up however you want, it's a human rights violation and a major one. What are these people dying for? Most women, children, and the elderly have been evacuated. So what are they fighting for? A corrupt proxy state? Hardly seems worth it.

 

[method115]

The Russians absolutely are, but Ukrainians are as well. I understand it's different because they're defending and not invading, but it's still deplorable. Let's call conscription for what it is, murder, torture, kidnapping. People being forced to kill other people that they otherwise would have no problem with at the whims of the elites. It's crazy to me that this is still happening in 2023. How do the people of Ukraine and especially Russia tolerate this?

Well they kind of signed up for it by living in that country. If you don't want to be conscripted don't live in a country where that's possible. Lots of countries have crazy laws that make no sense to me. For instance in Japan they can come after you for a suspected crime as much as they want. That's completely insane. So if they think you stole something it doesn't matter how many times you win your case. They can keep taking you to court to the point that pleading guilty is just the better option. Conscription is just a law like many other laws. Best to avoid countries that have them if you dont' want to be subjected to it.

Part of living in a country and prospering from it is obeying the laws. That's why it's very important to understand those laws. Everytime I travel out of the country one of the first things I do is start researching the laws in that country.

 

[Limbo Pete]

Well it's attractive as rhetorically safe way to criticize Ukraine. If you want to do a bothsides without explicitly doing a bothsides, then here's a fairly sure footed route.

Some people genuinely don't have a horse in the race and have criticisms of both sides and their treatment of their people. I understand a concept like that is foreign to you.

Dress it up however you want, it's a human rights violation and a major one. What are these people dying for? Most women, children, and the elderly have been evacuated. So what are they fighting for? A corrupt proxy state? Hardly seems worth it.

Like clockwork
Man couldn't even make it one post before chomping at the bothsides bit, even after being called on it outright, and then couldn't make it one post after that without trying to sidle past the bothsides and into the deep, dark Swamp of Apologism

 

[Deleted member 585708]

Well it's attractive as rhetorically safe way to criticize Ukraine. If you want to do a bothsides without explicitly doing a bothsides, then here's a fairly sure footed route.

I have some sympathy with being against conscription for an invading force - Muhammad Ali not wanting to go to Vietnam, for example - but I don't have sympathy for people being unwilling to defend their own nation from an aggressor trying to roll through with tanks and artillery.

Even if you don't care much for your leaders, and you think they're steering you wrong, those are your democratically elected leaders, and they can be removed - an aggressive occupation by another nation that do not sure democratic ideals is a far worse scenario, and even if you think 'war is not worth dying for', freedom - and specifically not being oppressed by ultra aggressive extremists that are prepared to invade your nation in the first place - absolutely is, in my opinion.

That doesn't mean you're going to run to the front of the queue and grab a rifle at the first sign of aggression, but it should mean you're prepared to answer the call if needed.

All my opinion, of course.

 

[AWilder]

Conscription is one of the biggest human rights violations in the history of humanity. The fact that it's still happening is beyond barbaric. People forced to kill and die, and for what? Who gives anyone the right to play God? The masses are still slaves and glorified cattle for the elites to do as they please. Nothing has really changed.

If only there was someone who could put an end to this war.

 

[Ruthless Ryan]

Dress it up however you want, it's a human rights violation and a major one. What are these people dying for? Most women, children, and the elderly have been evacuated. So what are they fighting for? A corrupt proxy state? Hardly seems worth it.

Exactly , just take a knee and let Putin take over any country he wants...it will sav lives right?

 

[Cid]

 

[Limbo Pete]

I have some sympathy with being against conscription for an invading force - Muhammad Ali not wanting to go to Vietnam, for example - but I don't have sympathy for people being unwilling to defend their own nation from an aggressor trying to roll through with tanks and artillery.

Even if you don't care much for your leaders, and you think they're steering you wrong, those are your democratically elected leaders, and they can be removed - an aggressive occupation by another nation that do not sure democratic ideals is a far worse scenario, and even if you think 'war is not worth dying for', freedom - and specifically not being oppressed by ultra aggressive extremists that are prepared to invade your nation in the first place - absolutely is, in my opinion.

That doesn't mean you're going to run to the front of the queue and grab a rifle at the first sign of aggression, but it should mean you're prepared to answer the call if needed.

All my opinion, of course.

And there's for sure conversations to be had about that. Vietnam is a great example of how conscription is used by an invading force. The current situation in Ukraine is another. It's complicated stuff. And i'm not going to shit on someone that went to prison instead of going to Vietnam. But the entire notion, in the particular context of our recent thread posts here, was just such a blatant attempt at a lousy bothesides that there's no sense in trying to unpack it in bad faith. The comment he made about fighting for Ukraine being fighting for a "corrupt proxy state" really tipped the hand, although the veneer was thin enough to begin with lol.

 

[Deleted member 585708]

Dress it up however you want, it's a human rights violation and a major one. What are these people dying for? Most women, children, and the elderly have been evacuated. So what are they fighting for? A corrupt proxy state? Hardly seems worth it.

Would you defend your house from invaders, or would you happily sign away the deeds and give them legal authority?

I mean, your governor might be an incomprehensible twat, but I'm still sure you wouldn't just give your house to someone because they're shoving a gun in your face.

 

[Cole train]

Dress it up however you want, it's a human rights violation and a major one. What are these people dying for? Most women, children, and the elderly have been evacuated. So what are they fighting for? A corrupt proxy state? Hardly seems worth it.

Fighting for pretty much existence of their country.

It would be humane on individual level to let people leave but it would mean end of country,culture and ukrainian as identity.
For ukrainians that seems to mean something,

One ukr streamer said it well (not completely accurate since stream was last year)

"For all corruption and poverty we have, it is still our home, my viewers who were playing fortnite in january, were running throwing molotovs at tanks and getting in firefights by february instead of running and i never thought country could unite like this"

Said streamers friend died in odessa missile strike

 

[Anewt]

Not sure about your source. www.hrw.org - Human Rights Watch.
Yeah, definitely a biased source and organization.

How would they know this? Much of this information is classified.
So, they are basically saying with all the high-tech weaponry the US has available, they can't hit shit. Apparently only civilians.

How is human rights watch bias?


The United States launched many more failed airstrikes on a far broader array of senior Iraqi leaders during the early days of the war last year than has previously been acknowledged, and some caused significant civilian casualties, according to senior military and intelligence officials.

Only a few of the 50 airstrikes have been described in public. All were unsuccessful, and many, including the two well-known raids on Saddam Hussein and his sons, appear to have been undercut by poor intelligence, current and former government officials said.

An unclassified Air Force report issued in April 2003 categorized 50 attacks from March 19 to April 18 as having been time-sensitive strikes on Iraqi leaders. An up-to-date accounting posted on the Web site of the United States Central Command shows that 43 of the top 55 Iraqi leaders on the most-wanted list have now been taken into custody or killed, but that none were taken into custody until April 13, 2003, and that none were killed by airstrikes.


Targeting based on satellite phone-derived geo-coordinates turned a precision weapon into a potentially indiscriminate weapon. According to the manufacturer, Thuraya’s GPS system is accurate only within a one-hundred-meter (328-foot) radius. Thus the United States could not determine from where a call was originating to a degree of accuracy greater than one-hundred meters radius; a caller could have been anywhere within a 31,400-square-meter area.


Yes the guided bombs are accurate... how they determined the location .... was not

If you want to continue the discussion. Direct message me as its a off topic

 

[The XL]

Exactly , just take a knee and let Putin take over any country he wants...it will sav lives right?

What purpose would it serve for an 18 year old Ukrainian man to die in a proxy war between the West and Russia. How is any of it in his interest or his family's interest? Ukraine is going to be absolutely fucked going forward, regardless of who wins this war. What are these kids dying for? This is a proxy war and unfortunately, it's going to be Ukrainians who suffer.

 

[Deleted member 585708]

What purpose would it serve for an 18 year old Ukrainian man to die in a proxy war between the West and Russia. How is any of it in his interest or his family's interest? Ukraine is going to be absolutely fucked going forward, regardless of who wins this war. What are these kids dying for? This is a proxy war and unfortunately, it's going to be Ukrainians who suffer.

So outline the alternative where they don't suffer.

 

[The XL]

Fighting for pretty much existence of their country.

It would be humane on individual level to let people leave but it would mean end of country,culture and ukrainian as identity.
For ukrainians that seems to mean something,

One ukr streamer said it well (not completely accurate since stream was last year)

"For all corruption and poverty we have, it is still our home, my viewers who were playing fortnite in january, were running throwing molotovs at tanks and getting in firefights by february instead of running and i never thought country could unite like this"

Said streamers friend died in odessa missile strike

That's good and well, but let those individuals make that decision. It's not as if Ukraine is an independent neutral state with a strong democracy and a people who dictate how the country moves. It's more or less a corrupt proxy state of the West.

I'm not saying it's justified an invasion, I want to be clear about that. Russia is a brutal Oligarchy that doesn't care about the human rights of it's own people, let alone Ukraine's. But I also do not think they would have invaded Ukraine if it was a genuinely neutral state. Why should these men die for a country that isn't really there own in a conflict that has been agitated in part by their own corrupt politicians and the West? The only people that benefit from this are the Western elites who want to bleed out Russia. A bunch of common folk dying for the sins of the elite. Makes me sick on both sides.

As far as Ukraine and their culture and country goes, it's going to go one way or the other at some point, it's just a matter of time. Either they'll go with the West or they'll go with Russia, either way they're going to likely lose most of their identity at some point. That's just the fact of the matter.