Rocky Marciano

[sushijin]

I'm not gonna go through and verify their ages but every single one of Marciano's championship bouts were against fighters who were at or near the end of their careers.

Well, you are obviously wrong. "Every single one", huh? Well, let me just blow that garbage statement into the water... Here goes: Archie Moore fought on well after this fight for another 8 years, and compiled like a 35-3-2 record after losing to the Rock, with many of those fights at the championship level. Not so bad for a guy near the end, huh? Also, Lastarza had a record of 53-3 when he fought Rocky, and was like 26 years old at the time. Doesn't sound like he was near the end either. I could go on, but I think we all know at this point that your statement is completely untrue. You guys just make shit up as you go along. You should be writing a fuckin' fiction novel instead of posting here.

 

[TKDhasBin]

Sush.......You're still nit picking over numbers and missed the argument completely. You're not a criminal defense lawyer by chance are you ?

Rocky could not have competed with the Ali's, Foremans, Shavers, Liston's and the Chuvalo's of the next two decades. He weighed a buck eighty nine .....had a short reach and had a sub-par defense.......If a 38 year old (I'm going off memory Sush....so please don't be so legalistic) Walcott gave Rocky life and death.....What do you think Foreman, Shavers, Liston and a host of others would do to Rock in their prime ?.....To think Rocky (who would be considered a cruiserweight these days) could compete against the fighters from the most talented decades in boxing history (while giving up 25-30 lbs.) is.........well............stupid....

 

[sushijin]

Sush.......You're still nit picking over numbers and missed the argument completely. You're not a criminal defense lawyer by chance are you ?

Rocky could not have competed with the Ali's, Foremans, Shavers, Liston's and the Chuvalo's of the next two decades. He weighed a buck eighty nine .....had a short reach and had a sub-par defense.......If a 38 year old (I'm going off memory Sush....so please don't be so legalistic) Walcott gave Rocky life and death.....What do you think Foreman, Shavers, Liston and a host of others would do to Rock in their prime ?.....To think Rocky (who would be considered a cruiserweight these days) could compete against the fighters from the most talented decades in boxing history (while giving up 25-30 lbs.) is.........well............stupid....

LOL. No, not a criminal defense attorney...

I just think when someone throws out numbers, they ought to be accurate. Or at least close to being accurate...

No, I'm not missing the argument. I was never a part of this argument, actually.

I was merely looking at inaccurate numbers, and wanted to set the record straight.

I actually have no problem with your speculation about how Marciano would fare against others. It's your opinion, obviously. In fact, a few years ago I also wrote that Marciano would have lost to many of the elite modern heavies... Liston, who only came around a few years later, would have absolutely ripped his head off.


Just have accurate numbers supporting your beliefs and it's all Kool and the Gang.

You threw out names from the 70's, so I might as well play. Yes, I agree that Marciano would lose to all of the fighters you mentioned, save Chuvalo and possibly Shavers. Marciano would have beefed up a bit more to fight in the 70's, just the way Quarry did. Quarry started as a 190 lber as well.

But he wouldn't have laid claim to the HW throne in the 70's, IMO. He could have been a tough contender in the way of a Quarry, though. That's better than being a no namer, the way you suggested he would end up. But again, there's nothing to argue here. Everyone can have their opinion.. Obviously we'll never find out either way. Just have accurate numbers and you'll hear nothing from me. I understand your viewpoint, and actually agree with some of the logic behind it.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

I think when it comes to age and weight classes, being over 30 in the heavyweight division is the smallest of handicaps.

By the way, I think Marciano P4P is one of the very greatest fighters that ever lived.

Considering he weighed quite often in the 190 pound range and carried a lot of the weight in his massive thighs tells you how undersized he was as a heavyweight. He was never expected to be heavyweight champion, let alone retire undefeated as champ.

You can say what you want about Charles and Walcott giving him a run for their money, but you know what, that's what Charles and Walcott did. Total pros with mountains of ability and experience. Sick of people not just downplaying Marciano's accomplishments, but making it sound like Walcott and Charles were not great fighters either. It's a load.

 

[lukeviacoolhand]

Well, you are obviously wrong. "Every single one", huh? Well, let me just blow that garbage statement into the water... Here goes: Archie Moore fought on well after this fight for another 8 years, and compiled like a 35-3-2 record after losing to the Rock, with many of those fights at the championship level. Not so bad for a guy near the end, huh? Also, Lastarza had a record of 53-3 when he fought Rocky, and was like 26 years old at the time. Doesn't sound like he was near the end either. I could go on, but I think we all know at this point that your statement is completely untrue. You guys just make shit up as you go along. You should be writing a fuckin' fiction novel instead of posting here.

looks like someone else needs a nap:redface:

Archie Moore fought roughly 20 years before Marciano, and roughly 8 after. He had 176 (boxrec) fights before Marciano and 40 (your number) after. He may have partly compiled his post Marciano record against good competition but he also fought guys like George Abinet (6-15-1) and Julio Neves (10-7). Despite still being competitive, he was an old fighter who was near the end of his career.

Lastarza was 53-3 before the second fight with Marciano, and 4-8 after. Sure Rocky helped make it so, but Roland was definitely near the end of his career.

 

[lukeviacoolhand]

looks like someone else needs a nap:redface:

Archie Moore fought roughly 20 years before Marciano, and roughly 8 after. He had 176 (boxrec) fights before Marciano and 40 (your number) after. He may have partly compiled his post Marciano record against good competition but he also fought guys like George Abinet (6-15-1) and Julio Neves (10-7). Despite still being competitive, he was an old fighter who was near the end of his career.

Lastarza was 53-3 before the second fight with Marciano, and 4-8 after. Sure Rocky helped make it so, but Roland was definitely near the end of his career.

4-5 that is

 

[Hester65]

looks like someone else needs a nap:redface:

Archie Moore fought roughly 20 years before Marciano, and roughly 8 after. He had 176 (boxrec) fights before Marciano and 40 (your number) after. He may have partly compiled his post Marciano record against good competition but he also fought guys like George Abinet (6-15-1) and Julio Neves (10-7). Despite still being competitive, he was an old fighter who was near the end of his career.

Lastarza was 53-3 before the second fight with Marciano, and 4-8 after. Sure Rocky helped make it so, but Roland was definitely near the end of his career.

And Rocky wasn't...

 

[Hester65]

You threw out names from the 70's, so I might as well play. Yes, I agree that Marciano would lose to all of the fighters you mentioned, save Chuvalo and possibly Shavers. Marciano would have beefed up a bit more to fight in the 70's, just the way Quarry did. Quarry started as a 190 lber as well.

But he wouldn't have laid claim to the HW throne in the 70's, IMO. He could have been a tough contender in the way of a Quarry, though. That's better than being a no namer, the way you suggested he would end up. But again, there's nothing to argue here. Everyone can have their opinion.. Obviously we'll never find out either way. Just have accurate numbers and you'll hear nothing from me. I understand your viewpoint, and actually agree with some of the logic behind it.

Rocky was a better fighter than most of you guys think he was. And to say an undefeated HW champ couldn't at least compete, is a shame (I know you didn't say that sushijin).

Rocky could possibly laid claim to the thrown before Ali got to it (i.e. i agree that Rocky would most likely not made the belt in the 70's but it was possible). Liston is was a very hard hitter, but so was the Rock. Rocky had a better heart and stamina. That would be a fight I would have loved to see...

 

[lukeviacoolhand]

And Rocky wasn't...

did I say that?

 

[Hester65]

Sush.......You're still nit picking over numbers and missed the argument completely. You're not a criminal defense lawyer by chance are you ?

Rocky could not have competed with the Ali's, Foremans, Shavers, Liston's and the Chuvalo's of the next two decades. He weighed a buck eighty nine .....had a short reach and had a sub-par defense.......If a 38 year old (I'm going off memory Sush....so please don't be so legalistic) Walcott gave Rocky life and death.....What do you think Foreman, Shavers, Liston and a host of others would do to Rock in their prime ?.....To think Rocky (who would be considered a cruiserweight these days) could compete against the fighters from the most talented decades in boxing history (while giving up 25-30 lbs.) is.........well............stupid....

Walcott was a crafty defensive fighter that gave Joe Louis more problems than he did Rocky. Your clearly going off of numbers, size, etc, and not looking at the bigger picture.

Foreman and Shavers were far from the crafty and quick Walcott. They got hit just as much as hitting others. We both know Rocky is coming out swinging and he will never stop. Those match ups are dependant on who lands and who doesn't and neither of use can know that.

However, with Ali we can know the outcome much more accurately not 50/50 though. Ali could out-box Rocky, which he would need to do in order to win. Ali was just as fleet of foot as Charles and Walcott....

To count out Rocky solely based on his size is...... well....... stupid....

 

[Hester65]

did I say that?

just making sure...

 

[lukeviacoolhand]

My comments are not meant as an idictment against Rocky. I merely agree with the general point of the statement below

Rocky was undefeated because he was the best heavyweight of his era.....and because most of the fighters he fought in the latter portion of his career were way over the hill and gone.....The average age of his opponent (during his championship reign ) was something like 38.6 years.....Not Rocky's fault.....he just happened to be young when they were getting old.......

 

[sushijin]

looks like someone else needs a nap:redface:

Archie Moore fought roughly 20 years before Marciano, and roughly 8 after. He had 176 (boxrec) fights before Marciano and 40 (your number) after. He may have partly compiled his post Marciano record against good competition but he also fought guys like George Abinet (6-15-1) and Julio Neves (10-7). Despite still being competitive, he was an old fighter who was near the end of his career.

Lastarza was 53-3 before the second fight with Marciano, and 4-8 after. Sure Rocky helped make it so, but Roland was definitely near the end of his career.

YOU ARE FUNNY.

8 years fighting and 40 fights with a tremendous record is hardly near the end no matter how many ways you wanna try to say otherwise. Nice try, but no cigar.

Lastarza did have limited success after Marciano, true. Sounds like the Rock wrecked him.... Sounds like Marciano deserves credit for that, if anything.

And you did know that Lastarza was 37-0 when he first fought the Rock, right?

 

[lukeviacoolhand]

YOU ARE FUNNY.

8 years fighting and 40 fights with a tremendous record is hardly near the end no matter how many ways you wanna try to say otherwise. Nice try, but no cigar.

difference of opinion

Lastarza did have limited success after Marciano, true. Sounds like the Rock wrecked him.... Sounds like Marciano deserves credit for that, if anything.

Gave Marciano credit. Maybe Roland lasts another year or two without the second fight.

And you did know that Lastarza was 37-0 when he first fought the Rock, right?

Yes, but since it had no relevance in our agruement I did not feel the need to bring it up.

 

[a jessup]

don't

Please don't.

 

[KORUPT xLOxx]

I also feel like the Rock isn't getting enough credit for how he would've done against some of the Heavy's mentioned. While Liston does seem to have most of the physical advantages over Rocky he didn't have them all. Liston at times had a tendency to brawl and go toe to toe. You guys act like he was Ali and floated around the ring using his jab all the time. Fact is if he got in a brawl with the Rock I like the Rocks chances. Rocky imo had more heart, better stamina and a better chin. If the Phantom punch knocks liston down and "out" what do you think one of Rocks punches would do if he decided to brawl with Rocky. Especially over the duration of the fight. Liston could cut up the Rock and end it there but if he doesn't and it's a war of attrition I take the Rock. Same with Frazier only now he doesn't have those same height reach advantages that liston has. While the Heart and Chin are on par I think that fight is a war with no clear cut winner like some of you make it out to be. I do think Foreman would beat Rocky. Chuvalo? come on now people. It would be a war with two granite chins but the Rocky should clearly get the edge here imo. Now Ali that is a different story. I think Ali could get on his bike and get a clear ud over the rock. No doubt he had the skills to do so. However, depending on what part of his career were talking about he could've beaten the Ali of the 70's imo. That ali was there to be hit and while Ali had a great chin and recovering ability the Rock had a chance at that version of the Ali reign. Basically all I'm saying is while he may have been undersized compared to the guys that followed to say he had no chance at a belt during the 60's and 70's isn't totally true imo.

 

[sushijin]

Liston has problems if he goes toe to toe with ROCKY? Certainly you jest. Liston had a great jaw, by the way. Better than Marciano's easily, in his prime. Watch his two fights with Cleveland Williams, and watch how many lethal bombs he swallows without flinching. And that was prime Williams, who was a murderous puncher at the time. His ali fight was a joke. He was never dropped by a punch there. That was a dive, and besides that, that was an old and faded Liston. Take him back in 1959, and he would tear Marciano's head off. Bigger, stronger lion gets weaker smaller lion 90% of the time. Oh, and top of all that, Liston was the better technician in the ring. Better command of the jab (a battering ram, really) and the fundamentals. This fight is a forgone conclusion in my mind. Foreman obliterates Marciano easily too, and actually much quicker. With Liston, Rock could see the mid-rounds maybe. With Foreman, he sleeps within the first 3 rounds.

 

[lukeviacoolhand]

Both Liston and Foreman were simply too big for Rocky.

 

[amhlilhaus]

news flash: archie moores age has been verified based on census information as having been born in 1916, not 1913, 1911 or 1876.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

Both Liston and Foreman were simply too big for Rocky.

Which was the mantra for Rocky's downfall throughout his career yet it never happened. Whether or not a fighter of the caliber of Liston and Foreman would be the one to potentially have made it come to fruition is indeed possible, maybe even probable, but personally, I wouldn't go beyond that.