Crime Riot+Looting in Ferguson, MO

[JadeOwl]

What I want to know is what led to the situation, the officer didn't just get out of his car and start shooting. What led to the confrontation and no one seems to have a straight answer.

The witnesses are pretty clear about that. The cop drove by, saw the kids walking in the middle of the road and ordered them into the sidewalk. The kids ignored the order so the cop got pissed and back the truck until he was right next to them and the confrontation started.

 

[shockaholic12]

I don't want to challenge your broad thesis because I don't disagree with the words you used. The problem though is they could mean very different things to different people. They are very loaded phrases. I don't feel like going through the process of finding out what exactly you mean by each of them.

Index crime and homicides in Greater St. Louis (2003–2012) on Wikipedia has estimated homicides above 200 from 2007-2012. (no data past 2012). Whether you want to make it 140 or 240, it doesn't change the general context that STL civilians killing each other are a significantly bigger problem than police killing STL civilians, yet the one police murder has brought more attention to the victim than the other approx 200 victims combined.

You have shown no evidence of another police homicide towards a civilian other than the most recent. You just say I'm narrow-minded despite no available evidence to the contrary.

This is a very flawed argument imo.

Those 200 murders could be the result of god knows how many different issues like domestic violence, gangs, mental illness, poverty, etc. Why would the people of a city combine them into a single thing to address? It's not possible or a practical course of action to deal with them. Are you saying that leading up to this week the people of St. Louis had completed ignored these other sources of violence? Like there aren't any gang, DV, or drug prevention/treatment programs in St. Louis and these protests are the first thing they've done about violence all year?

They are protesting what they perceive as systemic discrimination in the justice system. A shooting is only one extreme consequence of this perceived issue. There are many more consequences besides it your comparison ignores. So why even make it?

 

[TheStruggle]

So far we have two versions of what happened, one from the cop involved and the other from several witnesses:

The cop

 

[CableandThanos]

This is a very flawed argument imo.

Those 200 murders could be the result of god knows how many different issues like domestic violence, gangs, mental illness, poverty, etc. Why would the people of a city combine them into a single thing to address? It's not possible or a practical course of action to deal with them. Are you saying that leading up to this week the people of St. Louis had completed ignored these other sources of violence? Like there aren't any gang, DV, or drug prevention/treatment programs in St. Louis and these protests are the first thing they've done about violence all year?

They are protesting what they perceive as systemic discrimination in the justice system. A shooting is only one extreme consequence of this perceived issue. There are many more consequences besides it your comparison ignores. So why even make it?

Why are they protesting systemic discrimination when most of the murders are done by private black individuals? Shouldn't they be protesting themselves. How come there are never any rallies to stop domestic violence? Where are the rallies to stop the gang violence? Where are the protest outside the capital building to get extra help for gang violence?

Why is there a hands across America rally when Trayvon gets killed, but when that young girl that sang at President Obamas inauguration got shot by black teens, YOU DIDN'T SEE SHIT FOR HER.

This is why people roll their eyes when they see shit like this. The number one killer of blacks is blacks but I'm still waiting for a hands across America to take a stand on that issue.

Why is one kid killed by a cop more important that the hundreds killed by others in the same community? (again, not saying that the cop should not be punished)

 

[MuyThaiTom]

This is a very flawed argument imo.

Those 200 murders could be the result of god knows how many different issues like domestic violence, gangs, mental illness, poverty, etc. Why would the people of a city combine them into a single thing to address? It's not possible or a practical course of action to deal with them. Are you saying that leading up to this week the people of St. Louis had completed ignored these other sources of violence? Like there aren't any gang, DV, or drug prevention/treatment programs in St. Louis and these protests are the first thing they've done about violence all year?

They are protesting what they perceive as systemic discrimination in the justice system. A shooting is only one extreme consequence of this perceived issue. There are many more consequences besides it your comparison ignores. So why even make it?

I'm saying there are over 200 murders by civilians a year, around 1 by a police officer. But the police officer "murder" has more attention than the rest of the murders combined.

I'm not saying the community has ignored the other issues or haven't taken measures to address them. I am saying that there is a disproportionate outrage in the protests and coverage in the media for this "crime" compared to the others.

There probably are other consequences and factors in a "systemic" problem. They aren't very easy to quantify.

 

[TheStruggle]

The witnesses are pretty clear about that. The cop drove by, saw the kids walking in the middle of the road and ordered them into the sidewalk. The kids ignored the order so the cop got pissed and back the truck until he was right next to them and the confrontation started.

If that is true who's fault is that? Cops tell you to get out of the street and you pretend like they aren't there, you see how this is starting a problem? I heard the reason for the questioning was because they thought he was a robbery suspect, was that part confirmed?

 

[CableandThanos]

Cops don't start firing at suspects they are chasing unless they are clearly armed. Even then the fact that the kids ignored a direct order from the cops didn't do themselves any favors in the matter. So you believe the story that the officer jumped out of his car and started firing without calling for back up or even trying to catch the kids on foot? The cop would have to be the biggest asshole on earth to that. Now whether the kids actually went after the cops gun is the important part.

It could be a possibility that there was a struggle and then the kid broke free, then the officer who is now pissed, full of adrenaline, and maybe coming off of being scared if the kid had gotten hold of the gun and he lost his cool and shot the kid

 

[Hollywood Nicky]

Some witnesses have come out and said that he was only armwrestling with the cop.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/14/us/mi...d=maing-grid7|main5|dl1|sec1_lnk3&pLid=515276



Two witnesses told CNN on Wednesday that while Brown did appear to tussle with an officer before he was shot, he didn't enter the police cruiser as authorities say he did.

The women's accounts corroborate that of a previous witness, all three of whom said the officer fatally shot the unarmed teen.

Tiffany Mitchell told CNN she drove to Ferguson on Saturday to pick up an employee for work just in time to see Brown tussling at the window of a police vehicle.

She and the employee, Piaget Crenshaw, told CNN's Don Lemon on Wednesday about Brown's last moments.


BUT THANKS FOR JUMPING IN AND RUNNING YOUR MOUTH WITHOUT NOT KNOWING THE LATEST REPORTS.



GO BACK TO HATING ON JEWS

the witnesses said he ran 20 feet away, had his hands up, when the cop fataly shot him. IF this is the case, the cop is in the wrong.

you just think the guy is guilty because he's black man, you aren't even waiting for the police report.

i find it interested that in NV a bunch of white people had guns pointed at the police and the cops left, but in MO, the cops are not having any of that. why when white people point guns at cops do the cops leave but when black people protest the cops flip out? seems a bit of a double standard to me.

 

[Terry Noonan]

Why are they protesting systemic discrimination when most of the murders are done by private black individuals? Shouldn't they be protesting themselves. How come there are never any rallies to stop domestic violence? Where are the rallies to stop the gang violence? Where are the protest outside the capital building to get extra help for gang violence?

Why is there a hands across America rally when Trayvon gets killed, but when that young girl that sang at President Obamas inauguration got shot by black teens, YOU DIDN'T SEE SHIT FOR HER.

This is why people roll their eyes when they see shit like this. The number one killer of blacks is blacks but I'm still waiting for a hands across America to take a stand on that issue.

Why is one kid killed by a cop more important that the hundreds killed by others in the same community? (again, not saying that the cop should not be punished)

We have a winner. Should be the end of the thread.

I'm glad to see al sharpton could attach himself to another dead person and profit from it. Does anyone know if he showed up for that girls death who was killed by gang violence?

 

[TheStruggle]

It could be a possibility that there was a struggle and then the kid broke free, then the officer who is now pissed, full of adrenaline, and maybe coming off of being scared if the kid had gotten hold of the gun and he lost his cool and shot the kid

Very well could have been, the reason why i'm not jumping to one side or another on this is because the story constantly seems to change. If what the last poster said is true then this whole thing could have been avoided by following a simple direction. If all he had to do was get out of the street, this whole mess could have been avoided but like I said, some people have no respect for authority and make situation worse for themselves.

 

[CableandThanos]

the witnesses said he ran 20 feet away, had his hands up, when the cop fataly shot him. IF this is the case, the cop is in the wrong.

you just think the guy is guilty because he's black man, you aren't even waiting for the police report.

i find it interested that in NV a bunch of white people had guns pointed at the police and the cops left, but in MO, the cops are not having any of that. why when white people point guns at cops do the cops leave but when black people protest the cops flip out? seems a bit of a double standard to me.

look at the next post I made agreeing with you


Has nothing to do if he is black, let me wrestle with a cop and I guarantee you I get the shit bet out of me.

 

[Hollywood Nicky]

every time a black kid gets killed he was "going after my gun" yet they never manage to actually get it.

he was going after my gun is what people seem to be using to get a self defense case. but in this case if the kid was 20 feet away, the cop wasn't in danger.

 

[Pem123]

the witnesses said he ran 20 feet away, had his hands up, when the cop fataly shot him. IF this is the case, the cop is in the wrong.

you just think the guy is guilty because he's black man, you aren't even waiting for the police report.

i find it interested that in NV a bunch of white people had guns pointed at the police and the cops left, but in MO, the cops are not having any of that. why when white people point guns at cops do the cops leave but when black people protest the cops flip out? seems a bit of a double standard to me.

its always double standard isn't it, its a classic White bad guy isn't it. and you always going to blame it on them don't you.

im sorry for whoever become a victim on this tragedy, but i just wish some of the people here went to a countries where minority really get the special minority package, so you know what it really like.

 

[Wylie Hubbard**]

Anyone know if this is real?

 

[Falsedawn]

Why are they protesting systemic discrimination when most of the murders are done by private black individuals? Shouldn't they be protesting themselves. How come there are never any rallies to stop domestic violence? Where are the rallies to stop the gang violence? Where are the protest outside the capital building to get extra help for gang violence?

Why is there a hands across America rally when Trayvon gets killed, but when that young girl that sang at President Obamas inauguration got shot by black teens, YOU DIDN'T SEE SHIT FOR HER.

This is why people roll their eyes when they see shit like this. The number one killer of blacks is blacks but I'm still waiting for a hands across America to take a stand on that issue.

Why is one kid killed by a cop more important that the hundreds killed by others in the same community? (again, not saying that the cop should not be punished)

Hmm, why would people have a problem with the police (who are paid with taxpayer money and sworn to protect the populace) potentially killing a citizen unjustly?

It wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that the police are sworn to serve and protect would it? It wouldn't do with the fact that eyewitnesses are saying it was murder right? It wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that there is a systemic problem with our justice system and that reinforces the perception right?

For someone that supposedly knows black people, you sure are pretty fucking dense. Take some advice from this black guy; you know jack and should stop talking.

 

[CableandThanos]

every time a black kid gets killed he was "going after my gun" yet they never manage to actually get it.

he was going after my gun is what people seem to be using to get a self defense case. but in this case if the kid was 20 feet away, the cop wasn't in danger.

The 20 feet away is what is going to get this cop. If he had shot him within arms distance to the car, then maybe not.

I think there was a struggle, the cop got pissed/fearful and had a bunch of adrenaline and lost his cool and shot the dude running away.

If that is the case than he should pay the price.

 

[Lord of Lies]

Let's see what the actual evidence shows.

And you got dubs again? You're gonna get the ban hammer.

every time a black kid gets killed he was "going after my gun" yet they never manage to actually get it.

he was going after my gun is what people seem to be using to get a self defense case. but in this case if the kid was 20 feet away, the cop wasn't in danger.

 

[speakhandsforme]

I don't want to challenge your broad thesis because I don't disagree with the words you used. The problem though is they could mean very different things to different people. They are very loaded phrases. I don't feel like going through the process of finding out what exactly you mean by each of them.

Index crime and homicides in Greater St. Louis (2003–2012) on Wikipedia has estimated homicides above 200 from 2007-2012. (no data past 2012). Whether you want to make it 140 or 240, it doesn't change the general context that STL civilians killing each other are a significantly bigger problem than police killing STL civilians, yet the one police murder has brought more attention to the victim than the other approx 200 victims combined.

You have shown no evidence of another police homicide towards a civilian other than the most recent. You just say I'm narrow-minded despite no available evidence to the contrary.

Firstly, Greater St. Louis is much more vast that you probably imagine. It includes places well outside of the city. For perspective, the city of St. Louis has a population of just over 300,000. But the GSL area has a population approaching 3 million. It's a big difference. No sources, cited on Wikipedia or otherwise, cite murder rates that high for the city of St. Louis. This may simply boil down to a reading error on your part, which is understandable given your unfamiliarity with the area.

But, while I do agree that civilian-on-civilian homicide is much more common: this should not be debated by anyone. If it weren't, it would mean we're living in a horrible, militant police state. However, that statistical regularity does not minimize this instance and those cases of civilian homicide do not carry the representation of a systemic social problem in as obvious a way as this one does.

Lastly, I cannot cite a specific number because those figures do not exist, at least not in any form that I am comfortable using as a source. If I find a figure I'm comfortable with, I'll quote you in this thread, but, as you said, it's a hard phenomenon to quantify. However, undoubtedly, your unsupported assumption that this is the only time an officer has shot a civilian is not accurate. It's almost a matter of common sense. I don't expect you to pay attention to the St. Louis-area news to be able to deduce that more than one police-on-civilian homicide happens in an urban area in a given year. To support this, in a more anecdotal sense, I cited the incident that happened yesterday, where another (at this point unnamed) black teenager was fatally shot. From what I understand, he was armed and the decision to use lethal force was correct. But it still just supports what is kind of obvious.

Also, either you misread my "narrow-minded" statement or you are getting overly defensive. I did not call you narrow-minded: I said the premise that the unruliness of the black community is the sole (or even one of the most important) factor in their current social plights is narrow-minded. Which it objectively is.

 

[JadeOwl]

Cops don't start firing at suspects they are chasing unless they are clearly armed.

A premiss that is contradicted by the fact that even the police are admitting that the kids were unarmed. Even assuming the cop's version is true and the kid did try to take his gun, the kid failed and didn't have a gun when he ran away. So by his own admission the cop did in fact start shooting at an unarmed suspect that was running away.

Even then the fact that the kids ignored a direct order from the cops didn't do themselves any favors in the matter.

A cop who can't keep the disobedience of a jaywalking instruction from escalating into a fight and a shootout has no business being in uniform.

So you believe the story that the officer jumped out of his car and started firing without calling for back up or even trying to catch the kids on foot? The cop would have to be the biggest asshole on earth to that.

I find it easier to believe than a kid with no criminal record and who's never been in trouble before out of the blue deciding to assault a police officer who's inside a car and trying to take his gun away.

And the behavior of the Ferguson police and the County police in the days since does give credence to the impression that those institution are in fact disproportionally made up of raging assholes with no respect for the public.

Now whether the kids actually went after the cops gun is the important part.

Indeed. Especially since it is the flimsiest part of the cop's story.

 

[CableandThanos]

Hmm, why would people have a problem with the police (who are paid with taxpayer money and sworn to protect the populace) potentially killing a citizen unjustly?

It wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that the police are sworn to serve and protect would it? It wouldn't do with the fact that eyewitnesses are saying it was murder right? It wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that there is a systemic problem with our justice system and that reinforces the perception right?

For someone that supposedly knows black people, you sure are pretty fucking dense. Take some advice from this black guy; you know jack and should stop talking.

read further in the thread where I aid the cop is wrong and is gonna get it.


I don't have an issue with them not likeing it, I have a problem with them only giving a shit about dead people when it is a cop or a white person.

Again I said where are all the protest and hands across America rallies for the shit that is going on in their own neighborhood.

You can protest all you want, just don't expect most people to give a shit when you aren't protesting the biggest killer of your people, YOUR OWN PEOPLE. Starting cleaning up your own shit and then maybe others will be right along with you in any other injustice done to you.

Also just because someone is sworn to serve and protect doesn't mean that accidents or stupid shit ore even straight up illegal shit is not going to happen. Cops are humans as well, this one will more than likely pay the price for the loss of his cool.

But it's cool that you responded before reading the rest of the thread, It happens all the time and people end up looking like jackasses, let's just see if you keep going down that path.