Crime Riot+Looting in Ferguson, MO

[IDL]

So is this like a new Zimmerman case? We got Sharpton, we got the press, we got anger, we got some people turning it into a white vs. black thing, we got conflicting stories, we got people rushing to judgment, man.. We got it all!

 

[speakhandsforme]

every time a black kid gets killed he was "going after my gun" yet they never manage to actually get it.

he was going after my gun is what people seem to be using to get a self defense case. but in this case if the kid was 20 feet away, the cop wasn't in danger.

He didn't have to be within 20 feet to be in reach of his gun.

Them black folk can do crazy shit

Spoiler

 

[CableandThanos]

So is this like a new Zimmerman case? We got Sharpton, we got the press, we got anger, we got some people turning it into a white vs. black thing, we got conflicting stories, we got people rushing to judgment, man.. We got it all!

we got a segment of society freaking out over 1 death while they don't do shit about the 100s committed by the people in their own community.

would you expect it to be any other way?

 

[speakhandsforme]

So is this like a new Zimmerman case? We got Sharpton, we got the press, we got anger, we got some people turning it into a white vs. black thing, we got conflicting stories, we got people rushing to judgment, man.. We got it all!

Pretty much.

The facts could end up substantiating that this is a non-story but, in its infancy, it seems like a microcosm of a bigger problem. I never really got the level of outrage over the TM case.

 

[Quipling]

Even if he went for the gun initially - which is really hard to believe - there are multiple eyewitness accounts that the killing shots were fired while the kid was on his knees. Basically, everybody except the cop that fired the shots.

Also, I'm bemused that C&T is still showing his face after that epic beatdown by Pan.

 

[speakhandsforme]

I assumed that as well. Katrina being the best example where people involved in rescue efforts were being shot at.

Local news reported on seeing, in one just instance, ten truckloads of looters being driven in from out of the area.

 

[CableandThanos]

Pretty much.

The facts could end up substantiating that this is a non-story but, in its infancy, it seems like a microcosm of a bigger problem. I never really got the level of outrage over the TM case.

You don't think that the guy being so far away with no weapon is what is going to do in the officer?

I think there was a struggle and then the kid broke free and then the cop who was probably a little mad/fearful (if the kid had got to his gun)/ and had tons of adrenaline and he just totally lost his cool got out and shot the kid.

I know we all need to wait and see but this looks bad for the cop, and if true then he needs to pay the price.

 

[speakhandsforme]

Also, I'm bemused that C&T is still showing his face after that epic beatdown by Pan.

lol

Pan was actually being a sweet heart and was repeatedly giving him ways out.

 

[CableandThanos]

Local news reported on seeing, in one just instance, ten truckloads of looters being driven in from out of the area.

You talking about st l or Katrina,

that is crazy if you are talking about st l.

Hopefully this is over soon.

St Louis is where I proposed to my wife and they have the world chess hall of fame that I am trying to make my way over to see at some point.

 

[Pem123]

So is this like a new Zimmerman case? We got Sharpton, we got the press, we got anger, we got some people turning it into a white vs. black thing, we got conflicting stories, we got people rushing to judgment, man.. We got it all!

Spot on.

 

[CableandThanos]

Even if he went for the gun initially - which is really hard to believe - there are multiple eyewitness accounts that the killing shots were fired while the kid was on his knees. Basically, everybody except the cop that fired the shots.

Also, I'm bemused that C&T is still showing his face after that epic beatdown by Pan.

Sorry it is going to take more than an immigrant part Hispanic/part black republican lawyer disagreeing with me to get me to change my tune.

He has his views based on his life experiences, I have mine.

Hey I was in the military, so you can never question anything I say about the military. You can of course have your opinion but mine will always trump the others that have not been in the military!!

 

[MuyThaiTom]

Firstly, Greater St. Louis is much more vast that you probably imagine. It includes places well outside of the city. For perspective, the city of St. Louis has a population of just over 300,000. But the GSL area has a population approaching 3 million. It's a big difference. No sources, cited on Wikipedia or otherwise, cite murder rates that high for the city of St. Louis. This may simply boil down to a reading error on your part, which is understandable given your unfamiliarity with the area.

But, while I do agree that civilian-on-civilian homicide is much more common: this should not be debated by anyone. If it weren't, it would mean we're living in a horrible, militant police state. However, that statistical regularity does not minimize this instance and those cases of civilian homicide do not carry the representation of a systemic social problem in as obvious a way as this one does.

Lastly, I cannot cite a specific number because those figures do not exist, at least not in any form that I am comfortable using as a source. If I find a figure I'm comfortable with, I'll quote you in this thread, but, as you said, it's a hard phenomenon to quantify. However, undoubtedly, your unsupported assumption that this is the only time an officer has shot a civilian is not accurate. It's almost a matter of common sense. I don't expect you to pay attention to the St. Louis-area news to be able to deduce that more than one police-on-civilian homicide happens in an urban area in a given year. To support this, in a more anecdotal sense, I cited the incident that happened yesterday, where another (at this point unnamed) black teenager was fatally shot. From what I understand, he was armed and the decision to use lethal force was correct. But it still just supports what is kind of obvious.

Also, either you misread my "narrow-minded" statement or you are getting overly defensive. I did not call you narrow-minded: I said the premise that the unruliness of the black community is the sole (or even one of the most important) factor in their current social plights is narrow-minded. Which it objectively is.

Firstly, Greater St. Louis is much more vast that you probably imagine. It includes places well outside of the city. For perspective, the city of St. Louis has a population of just over 300,000. But the GSL area has a population approaching 3 million. It's a big difference. No sources, cited on Wikipedia or otherwise, cite murder rates that high for the city of St. Louis. This may simply boil down to a reading error on your part, which is understandable given your unfamiliarity with the area.

We are all impressed by your inside knowledge. That being said, you are again splitting hairs. Whether you want to take my "Greater St. Louis" estimate of over 200 murders or your "St. Louis" estimate of 140 murders, it doesn't change the context that it is an exponentially higher number than the amount of murders the police commit on St. Louis civilians (whether you want to include the suburbs or not).

But, while I do agree that civilian-on-civilian homicide is much more common: this should not be debated by anyone. If it weren't, it would mean we're living in a horrible, militant police state. However, that statistical regularity does not minimize this instance and those cases of civilian homicide do not carry the representation of a systemic social problem in as obvious a way as this one does.

You are right, it is obvious that civilian-on-civilian homicide is much more common. My point being that if this is obviously more common why is the outrage and coverage on it not more common?

I'm not saying that there are no systemic problems. I'm trying to put them in perspective.

Lastly, I cannot cite a specific number because those figures do not exist, at least not in any form that I am comfortable using as a source. If I find a figure I'm comfortable with, I'll quote you in this thread, but, as you said, it's a hard phenomenon to quantify. However, undoubtedly, your unsupported assumption that this is the only time an officer has shot a civilian is not accurate. It's almost a matter of common sense. I don't expect you to pay attention to the St. Louis-area news to be able to deduce that more than one police-on-civilian homicide happens in an urban area in a given year. To support this, in a more anecdotal sense, I cited the incident that happened yesterday, where another (at this point unnamed) black teenager was fatally shot. From what I understand, he was armed and the decision to use lethal force was correct. But it still just supports what is kind of obvious.

If anybody's assumption is unsupported it is yours because you are the one with no evidence. Either way, I'll grant you the possibility that there may be other incidents of police murdering civilians if you acknowledge that even if they did hypothetically exist, the total number is still exponentially smaller than civilian on civilian (the basic context of what we are discussing).

Also, either you misread my "narrow-minded" statement or you are getting overly defensive. I did not call you narrow-minded: I said the premise that the unruliness of the black community is the sole (or even one of the most important) factor in their current social plights is narrow-minded. Which it objectively is

I deeply apologize for misreading the "narrow-minded" statement.

I am not trying to paint the black community as "unruley" or make them the bad guy. In fact, I love black people. I don't even want to characterize the "black community" as a whole with any description because that would be steretyping.

I am just saying, .... the reaction to the recent event doesn't put it in a logical perspective. It is a great example of mass confirmation bias. Different people have different internal narratives. People take an event and look to confirm their own narratives without objectively measuring the significance of the event.

In conclusion, all the other people who are murdered in St. Louis were no less a victim, are no less dead, than this most recent (if this most recent even was indeed a "murder").

 

[shockaholic12]

Why are they protesting systemic discrimination when most of the murders are done by private black individuals? Shouldn't they be protesting themselves. How come there are never any rallies to stop domestic violence? Where are the rallies to stop the gang violence? Where are the protest outside the capital building to get extra help for gang violence?

Why is there a hands across America rally when Trayvon gets killed, but when that young girl that sang at President Obamas inauguration got shot by black teens, YOU DIDN'T SEE SHIT FOR HER.

This is why people roll their eyes when they see shit like this. The number one killer of blacks is blacks but I'm still waiting for a hands across America to take a stand on that issue.

Why is one kid killed by a cop more important that the hundreds killed by others in the same community? (again, not saying that the cop should not be punished)

Protesting the protocols a government system uses that is funded by the people and designed to serve them can bring about changes. At this point this shooting seems to be supported by the ferg PD as appropriate, this protesters would like to see that changed.

Public rallies against an individual's or gang's actions, especially when their actions are already deemed by society as illegal is much less effective.

In places like Kansas City the public has funded doubling their anti-gang police units and created City-County anti-gang programs, steps much more practical then rallying. Basically violent individuals aren't going to respond to rallies, government agencies will. That's why there is the discrepancy. It doesn't mean the people of Missouri are ignoring the other factors.

 

[CableandThanos]

Protesting the protocols a government system uses that is funded by the people and designed to serve them can bring about changes. At this point this shooting seems to be supported by the ferg PD as appropriate, this protesters would like to see that changed.

Public rallies against an individual's or gang's actions, especially when their actions are already deemed by society as illegal is much less effective.

In places like Kansas City the public has funded doubling their anti-gang police units and created City-County anti-gang programs, steps much more practical then rallying. Basically violent individuals aren't going to respond to rallies, government agencies will. That's why there is the discrepancy. It doesn't mean the people of Missouri are ignoring the other factors.

They are not protesting that, they are protesting a cop that apparently took the law into his hands, lost his cool after a struggle and shit a kid running away. The government has systems and protocols set up that most of the time work. The system didn't fail, the officer did.

I also asked why they weren't protesting at the capital steps for more help.

Also let me clarify that I am ok with the protesting (think it is stupid and again would like to see a little more accountability about the shit that goes in in their own neighborhoods) but am of course against the rioting.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Pretty much.

The facts could end up substantiating that this is a non-story but, in its infancy, it seems like a microcosm of a bigger problem. I never really got the level of outrage over the TM case.

It was because a dude shot an unarmed kid and the cops were like, "what happened? Oh, OK, cool. These things happen." Initially, it wasn't even being looked into. For obvious reasons, the justice system displaying indifference to human life is going to be a much bigger story than just some dude shooting some other dude.

So is this like a new Zimmerman case? We got Sharpton, we got the press, we got anger, we got some people turning it into a white vs. black thing, we got conflicting stories, we got people rushing to judgment, man.. We got it all!

More knee-jerk establishment white knighting from IDL. What a shock.

 

[IDL]

we got a segment of society freaking out over 1 death while they don't do shit about the 100s committed by the people in their own community.

What this means, is that it isn't over a death at all. It's over something else.

This something else gets lost in the smokescreen of retardedness as people start conflicting in a state of confusion over what it is they are upset about.

 

[IDL]

More knee-jerk establishment white knighting from IDL. What a shock.

More antagonistic nonsense from JVS. What a shock.

 

[RIPWarrior]

[YT]bODH1dG3avY[/YT]

As a black man I can say this without consequence

 

[Jack V Savage]

More antagonistic nonsense from JVS. What a shock.

I'm sorry if you don't think an abusive police force is a "real" issue. Those of us who don't reflexively side with the establishment on every single damned issue think it's very real.

 

[Concrete]

Is there a clearer picture of what happened? They started beating up the cop, he panicked and shot him?