International Riot in Sweden.

[Islam Imamate]

Depends on your definition of liberal, and how far off the spectrum we're going. I'm a secular guy and all for secularism, but also believe faith has its perks for certain people.

I mean liberal as in political/economic liberalism, not liberal vs conservative.

 

[The Diplomat]

I mean liberal as in political/economic liberalism, not liberal vs conservative.

Most of those are fairly moderate, and for some reason are able to keep the same accounts for years It's really just the ones who continuously get banned and are emotional that seem to spout the huuugley far left stuff.

 

[Bald1]

I hate to be that guy but well, I think its because of capitalism. Religions are generally a communal experience; we get together weekly and at different times throughout the year to worship and they tend to define our expectations of marriage and certainly the rituals around it. Its supposed to orient us towards the divine and the spiritual.

Meanwhile capitalism erodes the family and the communal bonds that help sustain religion and creates a culture that trends towards hyper-individualism and consumerism and materialism. And when I say materialism I don't mean mean that it makes us like stuff though it does that too. I mean that it trains us to only view the world in material terms which keeps the divine and the spiritual at bay.

Eastern Orthodox societies tend not to be as developed for as long as other Christian societies so the effects haven't had time to take root yet. But they very well might even as I hope they don't. Notice how in the developed West like in America to the extent Christianity remains its basically a hollow, self help religion or right wing identity politics. That's what happens to religion under hyper-individualism, consumerism, and materialism. Sorry but I don't want that to happen to Islam.

I just don't see it man. American culture is so much more than merely what's in the Constitution and that comes from our Anglo-Protestant history and more recently our role as the global hegemonic power and the globalized pop culture we've largely created.

So if Islam is an intolerant idea and intolerant ideas have no place in a free society I'm left wondering where does that leave Muslims in this "free society" of yours? Really when I read your argument here I'm left thinking that the obvious conclusion is not unlike Locke's conclusion about atheists; that an individual who is privately Muslim may not be a problem but allowing it on any appreciable scale in a public manner is anathema to the "free society" and therefore should not be tolerated. And I mean, you liked the earlier comment about how moderates like me carry water for the extremist minority so why should moderates like me be tolerated? Aren't we part of the problem here?

I think we've gone as far as we can with the American culture topic so I'll leave that one alone. Suffice it to say I think there's such a thing as American culture, just not one built along traditional lines.

Let's approach the question of Islam, it's tolerance and role in a free society from a different perspective..

I've read your posts in the threads about UK grooming gangs so know you condemn that community. I know you're a sort of a conservative lefty. I also know your views on alcohol. Couple all that with your overall statements about tolerating things you disagree with and I don't think you, my neighbor, or most Muslims I know would try and push your ideas down my throat.

Just like I wouldn't think of forcing my standards on others.

That doesn't mean that there isn't a problematic minority in Islam. Or as illustrated by something like 60% of Muslims in Luten knowing about grooming gangs yet keeping their mouths shut is a problem. That's carrying water for their tribes. That tribal mindset puts their community above personal standards, scripture and right and wrong and goes against my core beliefs. If I knew friends or family were doing such things I'd confront them, call for their arrest and disown them. I think you'd do the same.

So, just as I don't much get offended by the white privilege or supremacy conversation as it doesn't pertain to me, you shouldn't by the conversation about Muslims behaving badly. The difference is you chose your religion so you gotta deal with the negatives that come with that choice.

I don't think you're a bad guy, I just think you're be affiliated with a group that has more assholes per capita than most others. Yet you're a tolerant dude and thus the same courtesy should be extended to you.

So as a liberal, staunch secularist and anti authoritarian, how do you think I should view Islam in its current form?

 

[Islam Imamate]

I think we've gone as far as we can with the American culture topic so I'll leave that one alone. Suffice it to say I think there's such a thing as American culture, just not one built along traditional lines.

Let's approach the question of Islam, it's tolerance and role in a free society from a different perspective..

I've read your posts in the threads about UK grooming gangs so know you condemn that community. I know you're a sort of a conservative lefty. I also know your views on alcohol. Couple all that with your overall statements about tolerating things you disagree with and I don't think you, my neighbor, or most Muslims I know would try and push your ideas down my throat.

Just like I wouldn't think of forcing my standards on others.

That doesn't mean that there isn't a problematic minority in Islam. Or as illustrated by something like 60% of Muslims in Luten knowing about grooming gangs yet keeping their mouths shut is a problem. That's carrying water for their tribes. That tribal mindset puts their community above personal standards, scripture and right and wrong and goes against my core beliefs. If I knew friends or family were doing such things I'd confront them, call for their arrest and disown them. I think you'd do the same.

So, just as I don't much get offended by the white privilege or supremacy conversation as it doesn't pertain to me, you shouldn't by the conversation about Muslims behaving badly. The difference is you chose your religion so you gotta deal with the negatives that come with that choice.

I don't think you're a bad guy, I just think you're be affiliated with a group that has more assholes per capita than most others. Yet you're a tolerant dude and thus the same courtesy should be extended to you.

Mentioning the grooming gangs is odd, that's not really an Islam thing. Poles are the biggest human traffickers in the UK but that's not due to their Catholicism. Unfortunately when you create an ethnic underclass they tend to be over-represented in crime. You say that you're not talking about people like me but earlier others were basically saying that I and other moderate Muslims carry water for the extremists and though I hate to like police you did like the comment. So if even moderates are part of the problem and you can't tell which are and aren't sympathetic to extremists why tolerate them at all? To tie this into the other conversation, is it because of so called natural rights that you would respect despite their being a drag in utilitarian terms? Do you think a commitment to liberal values requires a minimum level of tolerance even for seemingly intolerant Muslims up to a point? If so, where is that point? I don't expect a precise answer, just food for thought I guess.

So as a liberal, staunch secularist and anti authoritarian, how do you think I should view Islam in its current form?

Idk man, that's up to you. I'm just asking about what you think should be done about Islam in light of the fact that you believe it has no place in a free and tolerant society, about what that means in the abstract legally speaking for Muslims. Because where there are Muslims there is Islam and if Islam has no place in a free soceity that would seem to imply little space for Muslims. I don't think you want to send us to gulags or kick us out though so I'm still not entirely sure where the logical conclusion is. I think the logical conclusion of your beliefs here is pretty grim for us and its only tempered by your humanity which won't allow you to follow those beliefs to said conclusion.

 

[Bald1]

Mentioning the grooming gangs is odd, that's not really an Islam thing. Poles are the biggest human traffickers in the UK but that's not due to their Catholicism. Unfortunately when you create an ethnic underclass they tend to be over-represented in crime. You say that you're not talking about people like me but earlier others were basically saying that I and other moderate Muslims carry water for the extremists and though I hate to like police you did like the comment. So if even moderates are part of the problem and you can't tell which are and aren't sympathetic to extremists why tolerate them at all? To tie this into the other conversation, is it because of so called natural rights that you would respect despite their being a drag in utilitarian terms? Do you think a commitment to liberal values requires a minimum level of tolerance even for seemingly intolerant Muslims up to a point? If so, where is that point? I don't expect a precise answer, just food for thought I guess.

Idk man, that's up to you. I'm just asking about what you think should be done about Islam in light of the fact that you believe it has no place in a free and tolerant society, about what that means in the abstract legally speaking for Muslims. Because where there are Muslims there is Islam and if Islam has no place in a free soceity that would seem to imply little space for Muslims. I don't think you want to send us to gulags or kick us out though so I'm still not entirely sure where the logical conclusion is. I think the logical conclusion of your beliefs here is pretty grim for us and its only tempered by your humanity which won't allow you to follow those beliefs to said conclusion.

It leads to the same place as it does for followers of any other belief system. I welcome the tolerant while reject the authoritarians. Kinda like I reject, outright, the authoritarian, dogmatic tendencies of the new left as a liberal.

You know what today's back and forth reminds me of? When you first found out I was born in Hungary so tried to find gotchas aimed at me from that direction. Lol.

Anyways, I'll be on and off here for the next little while, but am tapping out of serious conversation for now. Cheers dude!

 

[Islam Imamate]

It leads to the same place as it does for followers of any other belief system. I welcome the tolerant while reject the authoritarians. Kinda like I reject, outright, the authoritarian, dogmatic tendencies of the new left as a liberal.

You know what today's back and forth reminds me of? When you first found out I was born in Hungary so tried to find gotchas aimed at me from that direction. Lol.

Anyways, I'll be on and off here for the next little while, but am tapping out of serious conversation for now. Cheers dude!

Yeah that was not cool of me, sometimes when dealing with anti-Muslim posters I do get heated but that's no reason to resort to that. Not all of those posts were entirely crass though, in some I was trying to make the point that as Muslim immigrants are over-represented in crime so too are Hungarians. But then the retort to that is that most of those "Hungarians" are Romani which explains a lot.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Wait @Bald1 you referring to the fact that I mentioned Poles? Why is that bad? Why is it that we can only shit on Muslim immigrants and not Poles? I don't have anything against Poles, never really met any. But its just a fact that they are over-represented in crime in the UK. Like I said, its normal when you create an ethnic underclass. I'm sure middle class Poles in Poland are fine people.

 

[Bald1]

Wait @Bald1 you referring to the fact that I mentioned Poles? Why is that bad? Why is it that we can only shit on Muslim immigrants and not Poles? I don't have anything against Poles, never really met any. But its just a fact that they are over-represented in crime in the UK. Like I said, its normal when you create an ethnic underclass. I'm sure middle class Poles in Poland are fine people.

You lost me. Poles?

 

[Islam Imamate]

You lost me. Poles?

I mentioned Poles in that post which you said reminded you of my comments about Hungarians and I figured that was why but apparently not.

 

[Bald1]

I mentioned Poles in that post which you said reminded you of my comments about Hungarians and I figured that was why but apparently not.

Oh, no, that's not why.

We never talked about Locke until I mentioned my high opinion of him today, just as we never discussed Hungary until I mentioned being from there.

Nothing nefarious, just something that made me chuckle.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Oh, no, that's not why.

We never talked about Locke until I mentioned my high opinion of him today, just as we never discussed Hungary until I mentioned being from there.

Nothing nefarious, just something that made me chuckle.

I saw you mention Locke before and you even acknowledged the disagreement you had. Which is partly why I brought him up ITT.

 

[Bald1]

I saw you mention Locke before and you even acknowledged the disagreement you had. Which is partly why I brought him up ITT.

Today has been nice and productive.

But can we go back to being cunts to each other the next time?

 

[The ScorpioN]

Of course. At no point in history could you fast travel via airplane to completely foreign lands, so the only way to get a multicultural society is by having different ethnic groups who are geographically close to each other and therefore would have had some form of contact over hundreds or thousands of years.

Dropping a ton of Somalis into Sweden is a recent and unnatural phenomenon

Dropping a ton of Somalis in Somalia isn't great either as Somalia demonstrates. I don't think it's about proximity. If you dropped a bunch of Japanese people into Sweden you wouldn't have these problems. Sure there'd be some cultural incompatibility, but they would easily be reconciled and people would compromise and see eye to eye. There wouldn't be child rape, violence and explosions.

 

[The ScorpioN]

Wait @Bald1 you referring to the fact that I mentioned Poles? Why is that bad? Why is it that we can only shit on Muslim immigrants and not Poles? I don't have anything against Poles, never really met any. But its just a fact that they are over-represented in crime in the UK. Like I said, its normal when you create an ethnic underclass. I'm sure middle class Poles in Poland are fine people.

Overrepresented by how much and in what crimes? How do they compare to say Pakistanis? I recall in sweede's more cultural relativist days he also would bring up Poles to deflect away from Muslims. He brought up the fact they import (or export?) cars without paying the tariff or some shit in an organized way. Not a big deal. At least not nearly as big as raping thousands of exclusively white girls.

 

[hillelslovak87]

As a white male I accept responsibility for this tragedy.

Have the Sweedes tried washing some feet?

They've moved past Jesus worship, no?

You ever read the bible and think god's a foot guy? Gross.

 

[FedorGOAT]

https://www.dw.com/en/norway-clashes-break-out-at-anti-islam-rally/a-54756338

 

[Bald1]

"Hundreds of counter-protesters also gathered, banging drums and chanting "No racists in our streets," reported news agency DPA."

These people need to go back to communicating with body language alone as the meaning and use of words is beyond their capabilities.


On a side note. You know where none of this shit will ever happen in the EU? The V4 countries.

 

[reveler]

westerners are waking up to the idea that their governments are not working in their best interests. hopefully it isnt too late.

 

[Jokeri]

This diversity is a massive asset. These people are the backbone of Norwegian economy and social wellbeing.

 

[sweede]

The riot in Malmö (or more specifically Rosengård) had very little to do with Islam, as in the religion of Islam in its practiced form. There were no Imans goading them on and no muslim organisations behind the riot. The whole Quran burning just provided an outlet, a reason, for the permanently socially and economically depressed inhabitants of that particular neighbourhood in the city to wreak havoc. Not based on them being pious muslims but on the cultural heritage tying them to the book and friday prayers.
.

I did not know if I would write to you in Swedish, but not fairly to the other English speakers. But I'm surprised. Alarmed that the introduction is pure and simple unfounded. What made you come up with these things? To tone down the problems we have in Sweden?

Let me guide you through the events.

Wednesday 26 August: Malmö police deny permission for an Islam-critical demonstration in Malmö, for security reasons. The demonstration is initiated by the street artist and provocateur Dan Park, who has previously been convicted of incitement against ethnic groups.

Friday 28 August: The administrative court in Malmö gives the police the right to deny the demonstration, after Dan Park appealed the police decision. The Danish right-wing extremist Rasmus Paludan, who was to take part in the demonstration, will be stopped on Friday at the border with Sweden and denied entry into the country. Paludan's plan was, among other things, to burn a Koran wrapped in bacon, something he has done several times in Denmark. Rasmus Paludan receives a two-year entry ban to Sweden. At Stortorget (Big Plaza) in Old Town Malmö, an unlicensed demonstration takes place, to show support for the right-wing extremist politician. Six people are arrested on suspicion of inciting an ethnic group after kicking the Koran. A Koran is also set on fire on the outskirts of Rosengård and the event is filmed. Violence erupts in Malmö during the evening. About 300 people gather on Amiralsgatan and in Rosengård and fireworks, firecrackers and Bengals are fired. The police are exposed to stone-throwing and several are injured. About twenty fires are started in various places in Malmö.

Saturday 29 August: 20 people are detained during the night until Saturday. The police are investigating the crimes of violent rioting, vandalism against, among other things, police vehicles and violence against an official.

This was the police press release to the public. What you may not know, the police are monitoring 6 mosques in Malmö, including Rizwan Afzal and the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, Hussein Hamad and Al-Hoda Mosque and Islamic Center.

At the mosques' joint fourth prayer time at 16.57 on 28 August, an unusual number of believers were received. At the Islamic center, not everyone got a place inside the prayer room. Among other things, information was given about planned Koran burning and that people must protest against this. Time and place were passed on and in this particular mosque it was a call, the exclamation was not perceived as aggressive in its tone.

The rumor is spreading among the Muslim youths who have not been to the mosques. They gather in large numbers around Möllan, some eat food inside the restaurants but many stay outside on Ystadsgatan and smoke and drink tea and energy drinks. Their clothing is hooded jackets and it rains frequently. A rumor about Koran burning that happened in Rosengård makes the young people start behaving aggressively and make loud noises. (Later it would turn out that the burning in Rosengård was a maneuver in their own ranks and not by right-wing extremists who had gone out to Rosengård. Just the fact that you say that white Swedes would go out to a district and burn, that only consists of foreigners is so stupid to even think.)

The young people who are now bounced start to go down Bergsgatan to Amiralsgatan which leads to the old town and Stora Torget(the plan). The entire Bergsgatan was spared from vandalism and riots as these shops are owned by Muslims. Once down at Amiralsgatan, they are stopped by 6 armored piket vans that blocks in the direction of the old town. People then set fire to tires transported by other cars. They smash the windows and destroy the house facade of the Admiral traffic school, Repeat records, Kjole and more. Hill stones and bricks thrown at the police are transported by wheelbarrows from various sources, it is unclear if they were transported by car from another place. Several police officers are injured by being hit by rocks and illegal firecrackers. The atmosphere is very aggressive.