Rickson Gracie vs Rolls Gracie

[georgejjr]

Good post george but I'd hafta hear more on this wrestling being his ground deal because I am pretty sure that any elite wrestler would say that was not wrestling. I mean, a wrestler hasnt th options that Rolls has shown, that a judoka has. Is there anything, really, that shows wrestling over judo there because is see wayyyy too much room for any wrestling reflex and judoka are alot better 'wrestlers' than Rolls was here.

Just saying that, really, there was zero wrestling here. Not anything you could get outside of judo and we know for sure he did judo.

I suspect that because the match didnt stop to flush at spot and we see more than usual scrambling it's, ala wrestling. Nope.

This is a freaking tragedy if you guys think that scrambling isnt judo. Serious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPcsMMEMbfw

Thinking back now, Disco Inferno would have made more sense.lol

Look at the way Rolls distributes his weight on the ground, using his chest and hips to control. That's more typical of wrestling than judo. The submissions and so on he probably learnt from BJJ/judo (unless he did catch, but the admittedly little I know about the Gracies suggest he probably didn't), but his movement isn't typical of either judo or BJJ.

BTW, you can use that style for a long time. There are wrestling coaches in their 50's who easily dominate high school and low level college wrestlers with that style. You do have to stay in shape though. And of course, at the age of 50 you're not going to be a world champion with that style. On the other hand, at the age of 50 you're not going to be a world champion with the slow paced style either - getting older changes a lot of things.

 

[georgwilhelm**]

I don't understand how people can say Rolls was so extremely important to the development of BJJ, how he really transformed it and laid the foundations of it. He was studying other styles and incorporating them - thus he couldn't have been central to the development of BJJ. Because as we all know Helio created BJJ all by himself by transforming JJJ/Judo into BJJ and adding leverage to it. So no other arts were necessary because they were what needed to be overcome and transformed.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I don't understand how people can say Rolls was so extremely important to the development of BJJ, how he really transformed it and laid the foundations of it. He was studying other styles and incorporating them - thus he couldn't have been central to the development of BJJ. Because as we all know Helio created BJJ all by himself by transforming JJJ/Judo into BJJ and adding leverage to it. So no other arts were necessary because they were what needed to be overcome and transformed.

Because leverage and efficient use of force is absent in Judo and wrestling

 

[georgwilhelm**]

But why study/add other styles when Helio already created a complete system and showed that it was superior to all other styles including Judo, JJJ etc? He said himself that BJJ is all his creation and that the things his brother learned from Maeda was the old stuff that was of no use had to be transformed completely.

 

[DRS192]

Look at the way Rolls distributes his weight on the ground, using his chest and hips to control. That's more typical of wrestling than judo. The submissions and so on he probably learnt from BJJ/judo (unless he did catch, but the admittedly little I know about the Gracies suggest he probably didn't), but his movement isn't typical of either judo or BJJ.

BTW, you can use that style for a long time. There are wrestling coaches in their 50's who easily dominate high school and low level college wrestlers with that style. You do have to stay in shape though. And of course, at the age of 50 you're not going to be a world champion with that style. On the other hand, at the age of 50 you're not going to be a world champion with the slow paced style either - getting older changes a lot of things.

From his bio...

He was the first of the gracies to actively seek competitions in Freestyle, Greco Roman and Sambo wrestling as well as Judo. First cross training was with Osvaldo Alves, training with the Judoka in Brazil, later seeking 5 time US Wrestling champ Bob Anderson to improve his grappling stand up (with who he developed a strong friendship throughout the years), the famous Keylock is named “Americana” in Brazil due to this partnership (Anderson loved this particular move). Rolls also trained Olympic Gymnastics and Surfing in order to improve his athleticism, in fact he was the first member of the Gracie family to buy a surf board.

And:

In 1979 Rolls competed at a Pan American competition in Sambo, a tournament he won with two gold medals (in his weight and in the absolute division). In that same year he also fought at the wrestling free style Pan American Championship in San Diego where he also achieved gold. After his achievements abroad he was invited to stay in America and teach the LAPD his grappling magic. Unfortunately for the LA Police Department he refused what was an excellent wage at the time, mainly due to Helio Gracie’s disapproving of his move to the US.

Rolls also tried to make a Brazilian Wrestling team in order to compete at the Moscow Olympics but was unsuccessful mainly due to the lack of organization and bureaucracy difficulties. He ended up getting a Gracie Team together for the Pan Ams the following year (1980) where he got a Bronze Medal.

http://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighters/rolls-gracie-profile

Rolls was ahead of his time. It's amazing to think how different BJJ and MMA would be today if he was still alive.

 

[DRS192]

Another good article on Rolls and his background in other grappling arts...

While in New York, Rolls met wrestling coach Bob Anderson and began training and competing in freestyle and Greco-Roman wrestling and then later in Sambo, a Russian modification of judo.

At this time, much of Brazilian jiu-jitsu was based on Helio

 

[Res Judicata]

I don't understand how people can say Rolls was so extremely important to the development of BJJ, how he really transformed it and laid the foundations of it. He was studying other styles and incorporating them - thus he couldn't have been central to the development of BJJ. Because as we all know Helio created BJJ all by himself by transforming JJJ/Judo into BJJ and adding leverage to it. So no other arts were necessary because they were what needed to be overcome and transformed.

Do people actually still believe this obvious bullshit? That's pure Rorion marketing. It's a lie.

 

[deadlizard]

I don't understand how people can say Rolls was so extremely important to the development of BJJ, how he really transformed it and laid the foundations of it. He was studying other styles and incorporating them - thus he couldn't have been central to the development of BJJ. Because as we all know Helio created BJJ all by himself by transforming JJJ/Judo into BJJ and adding leverage to it. So no other arts were necessary because they were what needed to be overcome and transformed.

The kool-aide poisoning is deep with this one.

 

[georgwilhelm**]

Ok ok, actually I was being sarcastic, thought that would be obvious 'cause I was way overdoing it anyway (esp with the leverage thing). Wanted to point out what bullcrap Helio's and his sons' statements were about the purity and superiority of BJJ and how Helio developed that all from older styles which are thus completely obsolete.

Wanted to say: If Rolls is considered the great innovator of BJJ and he is known for integrating stuff from other styles it's logically impossible that Helio created something completely new and different from these very styles which Rolls later found useful to study.

 

[Res Judicata]

Ok ok, actually I was being sarcastic, thought that would be obvious 'cause I was way overdoing it anyway (esp with the leverage thing). Wanted to point out what bullcrap Helio's and his sons' statements were about the purity and superiority of BJJ and how Helio developed that all from older styles which are thus completely obsolete.

Wanted to say: If Rolls is considered the great innovator of BJJ and he is known for integrating stuff from other styles it's logically impossible that Helio created something completely new and different from these very styles which Rolls later found useful to study.

Okay, you got me. Good one! People do actually believe this stuff, sadly. My favorite BJJ innovation story: the triangle choke came into BJJ from a Judo book that one of Rolls' students read. Think about that for a while.

 

[deadlizard]

Ok ok, actually I was being sarcastic, thought that would be obvious 'cause I was way overdoing it anyway (esp with the leverage thing). Wanted to point out what bullcrap Helio's and his sons' statements were about the purity and superiority of BJJ and how Helio developed that all from older styles which are thus completely obsolete.

Wanted to say: If Rolls is considered the great innovator of BJJ and he is known for integrating stuff from other styles it's logically impossible that Helio created something completely new and different from these very styles which Rolls later found useful to study.

2/10. It did get me though.

 

[georgwilhelm**]

2/10. It did get me though.

Lol, it wasn't a trolling attempt - I actually tried to make the sarcasm obvious.

But if it had been... how could it only be 2/10 if it got you? :icon_lol:

 

[Aprentice]

rolls rolls like crazy

 

[greedysob]

Look at the way Rolls distributes his weight on the ground, using his chest and hips to control. That's more typical of wrestling than judo. The submissions and so on he probably learnt from BJJ/judo (unless he did catch, but the admittedly little I know about the Gracies suggest he probably didn't), but his movement isn't typical of either judo or BJJ.

BTW, you can use that style for a long time. There are wrestling coaches in their 50's who easily dominate high school and low level college wrestlers with that style. You do have to stay in shape though. And of course, at the age of 50 you're not going to be a world champion with that style. On the other hand, at the age of 50 you're not going to be a world champion with the slow paced style either - getting older changes a lot of things.

Both Judo and BJJ use hips/chest to control the opponent on the ground. That's not unique to wrestling. If you're noticing that the ex-wrestlers in your jiu jitsu gym are doing this more than the pure bjj guys, it's more of a sign of their experience than a trick learned from wrestling. The pure bjj guys will develop this in time as well.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Ok ok, actually I was being sarcastic, thought that would be obvious 'cause I was way overdoing it anyway (esp with the leverage thing). Wanted to point out what bullcrap Helio's and his sons' statements were about the purity and superiority of BJJ and how Helio developed that all from older styles which are thus completely obsolete.

Wanted to say: If Rolls is considered the great innovator of BJJ and he is known for integrating stuff from other styles it's logically impossible that Helio created something completely new and different from these very styles which Rolls later found useful to study.

It seemed out of character.

Though it's hard to tell, because there are a lot of people in BJJ who really do believe that Helio perfected martial arts and that any deviation from what he taught makes BJJ worse/impure. And that Rickson really is 400-0 and that Ron Tripp is a cheater who probably worships the devil. If they've ever heard of the Ron Tripp fight, that is.

 

[deadlizard]

It seemed out of character.

Though it's hard to tell, because there are a lot of people in BJJ who really do believe that Helio perfected martial arts and that any deviation from what he taught makes BJJ worse/impure. And that Rickson really is 400-0 and that Ron Tripp is a cheater who probably worships the devil. If they've ever heard of the Ron Tripp fight, that is.

How can you say Rickson lost when he clearly did not understand the rules?


See what I did there? What's my score?

 

[Balto]

How could Rolls invent anything? Carlos was his dad.

Everyone knows Helio invented leverage and the pure BJJ. Carlos invented food. There is a big difference.

 

[deadlizard]

How could Rolls invent anything? Carlos was his dad.

Everyone knows Helio invented leverage and the pure BJJ. Carlos invented food. There is a big difference.

This is why sports jiu jitsu is utter shit. If you train sports jiu jitsu you will have no chance if you get attacked by a random person with absolutely no training.

 

[Uchi Mata]

This is why sports jiu jitsu is utter shit. If you train sports jiu jitsu you will have no chance if you get attacked by a random person with absolutely no training.

What if that person follows the Gracie diet? On the street, high fiber intake beats berimbolo any day.

 

[deadlizard]

What if that person follows the Gracie diet? On the street, high fiber intake beats berimbolo any day.

Only if that person supplements the Gracie diet with Gracie Lemonade.