Rickson Gracie vs Rolls Gracie

Anyone can fight in that style, you just have to train for it. You may not be the most explosive guy, or the strongest, but if you have good cardio you can go at guys hard and break them with conditioning. Wrestlers do it all the time, and most of them don't start out physical beasts, they make themselves that way. I'm not the most physically talented guy, but when I was really training judo hard, I'd beat guys just by going at them longer and harder than they could handle. Royce could have done the same thing if he'd trained for it. That's why wrestlers dominated when they first got into MMA. No one could handle their pace.

I've been thinking about this post since training finished earlier today. Normally I roll like you've described (well, with as much pace as is fair to my partner - no point in steamrolling someone much less experienced) but today my asthma has been really bad and I just could not keep going long enough or moving fast enough.

I definitely think there is also value to be had in the slow casual approach. Training to win competition matches against other athletes is great but that's not always on the cards and a well rounded bjj player should still be able to protect themselves when circumstances put them at a significant athletic disadvantage.
 
I've been thinking about this post since training finished earlier today. Normally I roll like you've described (well, with as much pace as is fair to my partner - no point in steamrolling someone much less experienced) but today my asthma has been really bad and I just could not keep going long enough or moving fast enough.

I definitely think there is also value to be had in the slow casual approach. Training to win competition matches against other athletes is great but that's not always on the cards and a well rounded bjj player should still be able to protect themselves when circumstances put them at a significant athletic disadvantage.

I think that's true, but it's not really something you have to train for (other than by rolling with people bigger, stronger, and faster than you). If you train hard pretty much all the time, you should be well prepared for anything, self defense or competition. If you train your BJJ to be fast and explosive, you can always back off if that doesn't work. But if you don't have that gear to begin with (because you're been training too light), then you're forced to play a passive game all the time.

What I always think about 'self defense' guys who don't compete is this: can you imagine a more stressful situation than being attacked on the street? How could you possibly prepare mentally for stress of that magnitude? I suppose you could set up fights against other trained people that weren't particularly friendly, where you both really wanted to win. The stress leading up to a tournament, stepping out on the mat to fight, that's the best mental training for self defense you can get. If you've never even felt a guy going true tournament speed against you, how the hell are you going to deal with someone perhaps literally trying to kill you on the street? You also need to be in great shape for tournaments not only for the fight itself, but also to deal with the adrenaline because it just saps your energy. I doubt a street fight would be much different. Whether you want to win competitions or survive in an altercation, the optimal training is still pretty similar: go hard almost all of the time, and compete a lot.
 
I've been thinking about this post since training finished earlier today. Normally I roll like you've described (well, with as much pace as is fair to my partner - no point in steamrolling someone much less experienced) but today my asthma has been really bad and I just could not keep going long enough or moving fast enough.


I definitely think there is also value to be had in the slow casual approach. Training to win competition matches against other athletes is great but that's not always on the cards and a well rounded bjj player should still be able to protect themselves when circumstances put them at a significant athletic disadvantage.

edit.sry Uchi, see you posted while I typed.lol

Not sure what you mean, 'slow, casual approach'? There is no slow, ever. Unless training for tech.

I hear you tho and understand it's just a 'word'(we all use it, me especially) but just to be clear, if I am on top of a good bjjer and he starts doing his thing, his creeeping,lol, slow is a bad word I think. He's going as fast as he can, while being subtle.

I don't think Uchi-Mata meant slow casual approach, tho someone who is slower can beat a faster fella. Happens all the time, just like Uchi-Matas example of himself beating faster fellas.
 
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how so? ken took him down, went for a footlock, lost position and Royce subed him.

Royce came out aggressive, Royce shot for the takedown thus bringing the fight to the ground ( yes Ken stuffed and reversed) Royce won the scramble during the sub attempt, ended up on top and finished from a top dominant position.......

This Fight was nothing like the meek, slow, wait it out style. Royce went right after him from the opening bell and our grappled Ken in the scramble.
 
Im not saying Rickson beat Rolls

Its training, nobody loses

Or did you mean people were ironic when they were saying who won?

Its Sherdog man, the line between irony and trolling is sharp

Ha, I gets worse....... I meant Rickson counted a ton of "training matches" into his 400-1 record. That's the irony.
 
Royce came out aggressive, Royce shot for the takedown thus bringing the fight to the ground ( yes Ken stuffed and reversed) Royce won the scramble during the sub attempt, ended up on top and finished from a top dominant position.......

This Fight was nothing like the meek, slow, wait it out style. Royce went right after him from the opening bell and our grappled Ken in the scramble.

^WRW right there, fellas!
 
you can train all you want man, but if someone is 50 60 70 pounds bigger stronger than you, you aint ragdolling anyone.

Actually not true, though you do need a solid skill difference. In college wrestling its not unusual for 150 pound varsity guys to rag doll new heavyweights just out of high school. Of course, that ends when the heavyweights get their skill levels up.

And of course, against someone with no training, its pretty easy to ragdoll guys much bigger.

Even in judo, at the highest level, top guys against top guys, it can occasionally happen. For instance, in the all Japan championships (which has no weight division, just open weight), the occasional middle weight (such as Okano - 180 pounds or Kimura, 185 pounds) would win, throwing heavy weights (often 250-300 pounds) for ippon ... and back then, an ippon meant a very solid throw like something you'd see in a kata. Of course, you'd better be a one in a few million athlete if you plan on doing that (meaning you better have a nervous system which allows you timing that most of us are never going to achieve no matter how much we practice) :icon_chee

In terms of what I see Rolls doing, as someone who wrestled in college and fought nationally in judo, his throws are judo (no surprise, they're wearing a gi, and judo throws are more effective than wrestling with a jacket on, just as wrestling takedowns are more effective with no jacket). But on the ground his movements look more like wrestling than judo. Rolls looked like a phenomenal talent; as others have said, I wonder how BJJ would have developed without his tragic death.
 
Ha, I gets worse....... I meant Rickson counted a ton of "training matches" into his 400-1 record. That's the irony.

Ok, I missed one thing, no need to be an ass

Would love to see you speak portuguese

And read my last post, someone had already answered me

Edit: im dumb
 
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Ok, I missed one thing, no need to be an ass

Would love to see you speak portuguese

And read my last post, someone thats not an internet badass had already answered me



he wasnt being an ass, Iam. You seem like a good guy and just letting you know.lol He just talks buddy-like in good spirit.lol
 
Hah, thats what sucks in Internet. You cant hear people so I think everyones being cocky

Whatevs, no hate for anyone, just language issues from myself. Its hard because you learn 'technical' english on english classes here and when I get on Sherdog the language used is way more like you talk on a daily basis. Dont know if I made myself clear
 
Actually not true, though you do need a solid skill difference. In college wrestling its not unusual for 150 pound varsity guys to rag doll new heavyweights just out of high school. Of course, that ends when the heavyweights get their skill levels up.

And of course, against someone with no training, its pretty easy to ragdoll guys much bigger.

Even in judo, at the highest level, top guys against top guys, it can occasionally happen. For instance, in the all Japan championships (which has no weight division, just open weight), the occasional middle weight (such as Okano - 180 pounds or Kimura, 185 pounds) would win, throwing heavy weights (often 250-300 pounds) for ippon ... and back then, an ippon meant a very solid throw like something you'd see in a kata. Of course, you'd better be a one in a few million athlete if you plan on doing that (meaning you better have a nervous system which allows you timing that most of us are never going to achieve no matter how much we practice) :icon_chee

In terms of what I see Rolls doing, as someone who wrestled in college and fought nationally in judo, his throws are judo (no surprise, they're wearing a gi, and judo throws are more effective than wrestling with a jacket on, just as wrestling takedowns are more effective with no jacket). But on the ground his movements look more like wrestling than judo. Rolls looked like a phenomenal talent; as others have said, I wonder how BJJ would have developed without his tragic death.

Good post george but I'd hafta hear more on this wrestling being his ground deal because I am pretty sure that any elite wrestler would say that was not wrestling. I mean, a wrestler hasnt th options that Rolls has shown, that a judoka has. Is there anything, really, that shows wrestling over judo there because is see wayyyy too much room for any wrestling reflex and judoka are alot better 'wrestlers' than Rolls was here.

Just saying that, really, there was zero wrestling here. Not anything you could get outside of judo and we know for sure he did judo.

I suspect that because the match didnt stop to flush at spot and we see more than usual scrambling it's, ala wrestling. Nope.

This is a freaking tragedy if you guys think that scrambling isnt judo. Serious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPcsMMEMbfw

Thinking back now, Disco Inferno would have made more sense.lol
 
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Hah, thats what sucks in Internet. You cant hear people so I think everyones being cocky

Whatevs, no hate for anyone, just language issues from myself. Its hard because you learn 'technical' english on english classes here and when I get on Sherdog the language used is way more like you talk on a daily basis. Dont know if I made myself clear

I hear you Iam. I wouldnt say the same basis as everday but its easier for everyone to assume negativity. Which can cause a shit-storm.:icon_lol::icon_lol: Better to err on the side of caution, even on the net.lol
 
Ok, I missed one thing, no need to be an ass

Would love to see you speak portuguese

And read my last post, someone had already answered me

Edit: im dumb

Hey, I wasn't attempting to be a prick. I typed the "ha" as in "ha, I see". Or "haha, I get it". Not "ha you're a dummy". And yeah I didnt read the other posts that already answered until I already posted mine. My whole point was just being silly cause I'm a huge Rickson fan, but he "embellished" his fight record so I thought this would be funny to play on.

No disrespect meant. I actually love it when people try and make fun of someone for the way explain something or for not understanding and then the guy is like " yeah....English is my 3rd language, how many do you speak!?". Lol!!!


**edit**. Q seems to be dropping knowledge tonight, I'm a little slow on the uptake her for some reason.........
 
I remember reading a few pages in a Gracie family history book about Rolls doing Judo comps and Wrestling comps. It's hazy but I think that it said Sambo too. Then it said later on he made contacts with these Judo, Wrestlers and maybe Sambo guys too which they would teach each other stuff. Like some wrestlers come down to the academy and he teaches them BJJ while they teach him wrestling. That's all I've ever heard about him actually training wrestling though. This could all be my brain just playing games with me and distorting my memory. I'll have to find the book tomorrow.
 
Ok, I missed one thing, no need to be an ass

Would love to see you speak portuguese

And read my last post, someone had already answered me

Edit: im dumb

In the voice of Renato Laranja:

"Caralho".
 
Hey, I wasn't attempting to be a prick. I typed the "ha" as in "ha, I see". Or "haha, I get it". Not "ha you're a dummy". And yeah I didnt read the other posts that already answered until I already posted mine. My whole point was just being silly cause I'm a huge Rickson fan, but he "embellished" his fight record so I thought this would be funny to play on.

No disrespect meant. I actually love it when people try and make fun of someone for the way explain something or for not understanding and then the guy is like " yeah....English is my 3rd language, how many do you speak!?". Lol!!!


**edit**. Q seems to be dropping knowledge tonight, I'm a little slow on the uptake her for some reason.........

Haha yea, sorry for the misunderstanding. Rickson is crazy, he speaks his mind but he shouldnt be taken 100% seriously. This 400-0 is just one of his gems. Rickson might have ducked Ruas or Sakuraba (idk), he may talk too much and such. But still its pretty cool nobody really got to see him lose. My teacher Vinicius Campelo was his student from white to brown and said he only saw Rickson tap when one huge blackbelt was getting an arm triangle on everyone and Rickson asked him to start with the position locked. He said Rickson tapped twice and escaped in the third. Sometimes his greatness is forgotten because of his behavior

And here is my advice, never learn portuguese, it sucks. So hard and nobody speaks it, Haha
 
Hey, guys, I don't even know where this 400-0 figure came from. He most definitely lost.

It was against Ron Tripp. Rickson got Uchi mata'd so bad that he was knocked out cold from it.

I've heard lots of rumors about this match but the loss was a fact.
 
Just saying that, really, there was zero wrestling here.


picture-57-M.jpg


In upper row you can see Rolls Gracie, Rickson Gracie, Mauricio Gomes (Roger’s father)

picture-56-S.jpg


Rolls wrestling,

there is obviously wrestling in his style...he was a wrestler.

He was also a many other things, but wrestling was part of his game.
 
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man, i really need to start BJJ...dope video.

picture-57-M.jpg


In upper row you can see Rolls Gracie, Rickson Gracie, Mauricio Gomes (Roger’s father)

picture-56-S.jpg


Rolls wrestling,

there is obviously wrestling in his style...he was a wrestler.

He was also a many other things, but wrestling was part of his game.

great pic. btw, visited Evolve last year when i went to Singapore for a few days. one of the nicest combat sports gyms ive ever seen. im not sure any legit fight camps out in the US look like that. crazy Muay Thai talent there also.
 
edit.sry Uchi, see you posted while I typed.lol

Not sure what you mean, 'slow, casual approach'? There is no slow, ever. Unless training for tech.

I hear you tho and understand it's just a 'word'(we all use it, me especially) but just to be clear, if I am on top of a good bjjer and he starts doing his thing, his creeeping,lol, slow is a bad word I think. He's going as fast as he can, while being subtle.

I don't think Uchi-Mata meant slow casual approach, tho someone who is slower can beat a faster fella. Happens all the time, just like Uchi-Matas example of himself beating faster fellas.

I guess I meant low-energy. It was late and I was using my mobile, not sure where I pulled the phrase "slow casual" from.

Examples of what I mean by low-energy:
- My go to side control escape is probably the elbow push. It's a high energy move but it also necessitates a high energy responce from your opponent if they want to keep their advantageous position. I've got no problem making that trade when I'm healthy as I have pretty good endurance. I reckon making this technique falls into the category of pace setting, wrestling-like, bjj that was being advocated (and of which I'm a fan, both as a spectator and participant).

By contrast there is the option of foot dragging into half guard which is low energy. Even when perfectly successful it doesn't make you as safe using the elbow push. However, this may be a much more sensible strategy for someone that knows their opponent is likely to be at an advantage against them in strength and endurance.

An even better example would be in guard passing strategies. You can pass in a high energy style like Marcelo or Lo and break your opponents will by forcing them to constantly defend from different angles or you can stay low, be cautious and look for mistakes to capitalise on (not sure who the posterboy for this strategy would be - I tend to only follow the fast scrambly types).

The point I was hoping to make is just that, if you have reason to believe that you won't be able to consistently use aggressive higher energy strategies, it's perfectly reasonable to train with this in mind and to make defence and safety your focus rather than agression and offence.
 

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