Rickson Gracie FAQ

Tonycpa said:
Donkey,

I read about the first twenty six pages of this thread. Thanks, it's awesome.

You mentioned that Rolls and Rickson were two of the very best ever and that both personally cross-trained in BJJ, Judo, Sambo, Freestyle wrestling, and Greco Roman wrestling.

#1) You didn't mention if they trained in Catch wrestling. Wasn't Sakuraba a Catch wrestler? If so, do you think the failure to cross-train in Catch wrestling hurt their students (the ones that lost in Pride) and more generally the art of BJJ?

#2) Has BJJ since adapted to deal with Catch wrestling as it has adapted to deal with the other disciplines mentioned?

#3) Do you feel BJJ had a weakness at that time (the Pride era), or was it specifically poor match-ups (qualities of the individual fighters that made the difference)? For example, if it were Rickson who fought Sakuraba would BJJ have succeeded?

#4) Obviously we will never know as the fight didn't take place but has Rickson stated what BJJ techniques existed that the Gracie's failed to implement in their fights with Sakuraba, or did he admit that BJJ had a flaw that needed to be fixed?
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1. They didn`t. Actually, they were great rivals of the CACC descendant schools in Brazil, here named Luta-Livre. I believe that not cross-training helped make BJJ the art of the smaller man, by emphasizing position over submission. However a lot has been lost in terms of submissions such as neck cranks, and positions not usually found in judo, like many of those in CACC.

2- Nowadays grappling is grappling, thanks to the widespread competition against fully resisting partners and rules that favor any style, we see less and less distinction between styles and more and more plain grappling with whatever works.

2- There is no weakness in BJJ. Sakuraba is a genius. Possibly splits the title of greatest grappling genius to ever set foot on an MMA ring with Rickson and Nino Schembri, and Roger Gracie. Also, the only Gracie who was an actual grappling standout that Saku fought was a much smaller Royler. Renzo, Ryan, and Royce were good fighters in their own right, but none exceptional and none a grappling phenom. Saku, on the other hand, is nothing short of magnificent on the mat. It wasn't a match between styles so much as a match between fighters of unequal skill levels.

4- Rickson basically claims that any loss using BJJ is a loss caused by taking risks and leaving point zero. His belief in his ability to remain in a perfectly defensible position at all times until his opponent makes a mistake is why he believes he might have a chance against great fighters of today, including Fedor. As he says " I might not win, but I will not lose."
 
Estebanantonio said:
I don't understand the big deal? Does he still claim to have an undefeated record?
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Yes he does. As recently as a November interview for the TV Show "Sensei SporTV" on the SporTV channel, he has claimed to have an undefeated record of over 400 matches. That's his story and the man is sticking with it.

Vanity... is the Gracie sin.
 
I enjoyed this thread so much that I put it in my Sherdog sig so everyone can come and see it.
 
DonkeyKong said:
1. They didn`t. Actually, they were great rivals of the CACC descendant schools in Brazil, here named Luta-Livre. I believe that not cross-training helped make BJJ the art of the smaller man, by emphasizing position over submission. However a lot has been lost in terms of submissions such as neck cranks, and positions not usually found in judo, like many of those in CACC.

2- Nowadays grappling is grappling, thanks to the widespread competition against fully resisting partners and rules that favor any style, we see less and less distinction between styles and more and more plain grappling with whatever works.

2- There is no weakness in BJJ. Sakuraba is a genius. Possibly splits the title of greatest grappling genius to ever set foot on an MMA ring with Rickson and Nino Schembri, and Roger Gracie. Also, the only Gracie who was an actual grappling standout that Saku fought was a much smaller Royler. Renzo, Ryan, and Royce were good fighters in their own right, but none exceptional and none a grappling phenom. Saku, on the other hand, is nothing short of magnificent on the mat. It wasn't a match between styles so much as a match between fighters of unequal skill levels.

4- Rickson basically claims that any loss using BJJ is a loss caused by taking risks and leaving point zero. His belief in his ability to remain in a perfectly defensible position at all times until his opponent makes a mistake is why he believes he might have a chance against great fighters of today, including Fedor. As he says " I might not win, but I will not lose."
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DK,

Thanks again. You really put a lot of effort into this thread. A lot of people appreciate it!

I will respectfully disagree that there are no weaknesses in BJJ (I do understand the context in which you made the statement, that it was the skills of the individuals that made the difference and not the system).

BJJ, along with Greco Roman, Folkstyle, Freestyle, Catch wrestling, Judo, and Sambo are all flawed because they incomplete disciplines that are branches of Pankration which existed thousands of years ago.

Any argument that attempts to justify the continued segregation of those disciplines is one that is fundamentally flawed and irreparably broken.

If you went into the woods to hunt a bear and had three tools with you...a knife, a bow and arrow, and a rifle, we could all agree that each of those tools can kill the bear. Insisting on using the least effective tool in a specific circumstance is just ridiculous even though the end result may be the same.

Another analogy would be if you were about to enter a war. Let's say you were fortunate enough to have an army, an air force, a navy, and a Marine Corps. All of them could storm a beach, right? Eventually they could all get the job done but I don't think you would last very long as a general if you sent the fly boys to do that job.

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. The system as a whole (Pankration) determines in an important way how the parts (BJJ, Greco Roman, Folkstyle, Freestyle, Catch wrestling, Judo, and Sambo) are to be applied.
 
chaps said:
I enjoyed this thread so much that I put it in my Sherdog sig so everyone can come and see it.
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Thanks. I will add to this thread as soon as I come upon something worthy.

Take care.
 
So what does Rorion think of the other Gracies like Roger? Also what did Rickson think of Vitor? Was Vitor really adapted by Carlson? I heard he was going to be adapted by him in a book, but family problems and what not.
 
Wrestler160 said:
So what does Rorion think of the other Gracies like Roger? Also what did Rickson think of Vitor? Was Vitor really adapted by Carlson? I heard he was going to be adapted by him in a book, but family problems and what not.
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Carlson never adopted Vitor. It was a publicity thing to get Vitor's name out there.
 
Read the whole thread and it was awesome!

I thought I knew more about the Gracie's than most MMA fans and this thread made me feel like I knew nothing.

One thing that is important to note: Your list of grappling geniuses should include guys like Karl Gotch. He was such a good catch wrestlers that Judoka came from Japan to challenge him. He was the World HW Judo Champion until he chose to stop defending it. His techniques were absorbed by the Judoka who came to train with him and were eventually brought to Brazil.
 
I have absolute respect for Gotch. I`m not sure but I think Sakuraba's grappling lineage can be traced back to him. Either way, in my statement I meant grappling geniuses that have competed in MMA.

Otherwise the list would be long and very arguable!
 
Title Fight Productions said:
Say what!?!?!??!!?:icon_conf
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I knew that would get some attention!

When I say there is no weakness in BJJ, I mean the principle behind BJJ, not the techniques themselves. It is basically the same zen approach of Aikido or Jeet Kune Do:
an opponent can't beat you if you dont leave openings. It is possible to defend yourself without openings but it is impossible to attack without leaving openings, therefore,in principle, the attacking man is always at a disadvantage.

If two "perfect men" fought, the one attacking would lose immediately upon attacking, because the other would be able to fully explore the opening.

That is the philosophical principle of certain martial arts which require the safety of the smaller, weaker man, as a necessity for victory instead of focusing on aggressiveness.

Of course, there are no perfect men, and it is unlikely that there will ever be a man who has the perfect defense , or point zero, but as a mental attitude and a fighting principle, it is solid and self-coherent.

Now, whether you believe Rickson is absolutely safe in his defense as he claims, as Morihei Ueshiba claimed, as Miyamoto Musashi claimed, then that is a different story.

I would not speculate on this, I have no opinion on the subject. I would like to see Rickson fight and see if he is able to "not win, but certainly not lose", as he put it. I am not otherwise interested in the philosophical aspect of his martial art insofar as it relates to Rickson.
 
Fair enough,

I put Romulus and Remus high on my list of all time grappling greats. Haha.

I think you're correct that Saku (and the rest of Saku's camp) trace their lineage in some way back to Gotch. Judoka came to train with Gotch and they brought it back to Japan. It sparked Japanese interest in wrestling; over the years with Judo, Shoot, Catch, Pro and Amateur wrestling I'm sure there was a lot of back and forth exchange of knowledge and technique but Gotch was the synthesis of that.
 
SOE Jinn right here at Sherdog adds to Saku's lineage issue:

Karl Gotch, a Catch Wrestler, came to Japan and opened up a gym and had many famous Japanese students. His Japanese students started the Universal Wrestling Federation (UWF), Pancrease, and Shooto in Japan. Sakuraba can trace his influence back to these Japanese students of Karl Gotch.

I believe that's the connection. Saku can't be more than 2 generations away from Gotch himself.
 
DonkeyKong said:
SOE Jinn right here at Sherdog adds to Saku's lineage issue:

Karl Gotch, a Catch Wrestler, came to Japan and opened up a gym and had many famous Japanese students. His Japanese students started the Universal Wrestling Federation (UWF), Pancrease, and Shooto in Japan. Sakuraba can trace his influence back to these Japanese students of Karl Gotch.

I believe that's the connection. Saku can't be more than 2 generations away from Gotch himself.
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Makes sense to me, I knew he had japanese visit him wasn't 100% sure he went to Japan himself.

I'm not sure but I believe Inoki trained with Gotch.

My apologies for hijacking a Rickson thread. I will now allow it to return to the original subject.

Thank you for all the details on the Gracies.

EDIT: I've realized why I've been confused on some of the details. I'm mistaking Karl Gotch for Frank Gotch. Frank Gotch is the catch wrestler from a generation earlier than Karl Gotch. In fact Karl Istaz took Gotch's last name as homage when he became a professional wrestler. I meant to say Frank Gotch... Embarassing.
 
This is the first thread of such extensive length that I've read entirely. Amazing Job DK.
 
DonkeyKong said:
I knew that would get some attention!

When I say there is no weakness in BJJ, I mean the principle behind BJJ, not the techniques themselves. It is basically the same zen approach of Aikido or Jeet Kune Do:
an opponent can't beat you if you dont leave openings. It is possible to defend yourself without openings but it is impossible to attack without leaving openings, therefore,in principle, the attacking man is always at a disadvantage.

If two "perfect men" fought, the one attacking would lose immediately upon attacking, because the other would be able to fully explore the opening.

That is the philosophical principle of certain martial arts which require the safety of the smaller, weaker man, as a necessity for victory instead of focusing on aggressiveness.

Of course, there are no perfect men, and it is unlikely that there will ever be a man who has the perfect defense , or point zero, but as a mental attitude and a fighting principle, it is solid and self-coherent.

Now, whether you believe Rickson is absolutely safe in his defense as he claims, as Morihei Ueshiba claimed, as Miyamoto Musashi claimed, then that is a different story.

I would not speculate on this, I have no opinion on the subject. I would like to see Rickson fight and see if he is able to "not win, but certainly not lose", as he put it. I am not otherwise interested in the philosophical aspect of his martial art insofar as it relates to Rickson.
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I believe it is easier to counter-attack than to attack. If I must attack then I must create a diversion to distract him or I will leave my self open when attacking.

That is why fighting in MMA is different than the streets. In MMA both fighters must attack each other...thats what they get paid to do. In the streets I don't have to attack my opponent....I can just wait for him to attack me then counter-attack. If he does not attack me then there is no need to engage him.
 
oh my god, i just reread all 46 pages. wow. DK, you're a bloody saint for putting all this up!
 
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