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Rewatched islam charles

Charles got outclassed by Islam on the fit? Also submission finish due to being badly gassed?
 
fortheo said:
My memory from before charles was rocked badly:

Islam lands in half guard, then charles re-gained guard, then threatens an armbar to triangle transition. Islam postures out, goes to half guard again and applies heavy shoulder pressure, charles creates space, uses deep half to transition to a leg attack which islam wants nothing to do with so he turns to pull out completely, allowing charles to come behind Islam on a body lock in order to get back to his feet. By the way, a similar leg attack sequence happened in the dariush fight, but dariush didn't fear it as much as islam did and defended and stayed on top, where as islam respected the threat a lot more and chose to disengage, thus giving charles space to get back up.

Later on islam gets a nice body lock in the clinch, lands a nice throw, stays heavy on charles with his chin under charles, smooshing charles against the cage. This is the best place for islam if he wants to grapple with charles. He gets some control time and soft gnp, but the round ends with islam eating an up kick and charles setting up a triangle.

Mind you I'm not saying charles won the grappling -- but it wasn't as black and white as some fans will make you believe.
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As much as I really want to, I can't rationally favour Charles in a rematch.

But it's such a shame because I genuinely believe he has the skillset to beat Islam if he focuses more on getting up than spamming sub attempts from the bottom. I can't say for certain, but I suspect sub attempts are more taxing than just trying to get to his feet (Mind you, the leg attack got him there).

On feet, I still like him pressing forward but with more jabbing to the head and body--while disguising the body jabs as takedown attempts.
 
I don't know if was a case of everything aligned on the night and a fighter had an off-night but the most glaring thing I noticed between the Islam/Charles fight and the Charles/Beneil fight was the speed difference. Perhaps Charles had an off-night against Islam and Beneil had an off-night against Charles but the speed difference was very noticeable. Beneil looked slow against Charles in literally everything he did whereas Charles looked a fraction of a second slower against Islam in nearly all their exchanges.
 
fortheo said:
People will not agree because they saw islam on top, which means he was winning to them. They also thought lee was winning on top of charles lol. The truth is that islam was in defense mode during a lot of the mat grappling exchanges and Charles's activity from bottom shut down most of Islam's ground and pound.

The problem was charles running into the same counter over and over on the feet.
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Some people won’t agree with your assessment because it spills of Conor fanboyism hating on Islam because he’s being coached by Khabib.

fact is, Islam was the better fighter with better IQ, would watch a rematch but it wouldn’t be any different than the first.
 
Might need a rewatch but the fundamental problem I saw that Charles will likely face again is that Islam was significantly better than him on the feet, I don't see Charles submitting him without doing damage on the feet first. Unless that was a particularly off night for Charles I can't see him making up the difference on the feet and expect a repeat of their first fight albeit perhaps finished by the 3rd or early 4th round.
 
It was not close on the ground.
Charles got choked out. He choose to tap.
He wasn’t that hurt.
He was fully gassed after one round of top pressure from Islam.
Even if he does three minutes ‘good’ on the ground.
He is not really doing anything while Islam is investing in the fight.
He makes Charles use far more energy than him.
His game on the ground worked.
Charles gassed out and realised that he can’t catch Islam in a submission. When he found out that he also had nothing on the feet. He choose to tap out.
 
I felt like Islam showed he's fine in top position against Charles and wouldn't be threatened by his submissions. Him tapping Charles was just the icing on top. I really don't see Charles in a rematch preparing to win off his back to sub Islam, but hey whatever helps you guys sleep at night. Looked like he was neutralized on the ground.
 
BigOlJeet said:
Some people won’t agree with your assessment because it spills of Conor fanboyism hating on Islam because he’s being coached by Khabib.

fact is, Islam was the better fighter with better IQ, would watch a rematch but it wouldn’t be any different than the first.
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You must be new around here if you think I am or ever was a Conor fan lol. I merely pointed out why the grappling was close, and for some reason people feel offended by that notion. I broke down how I saw the grappling in another post at the end of page one in this thread. Feel free to disagree with it if you want, but it's just what I saw.
 
hswrestler said:
Oliveira did more damage on the ground and was able to get up quickly when he wasn't rocked. Oliveira has power but leaves himself open to counters
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This is absurd lol. Islam was jamming his elbow into Charles face for 2 minutes straight with no resistance. Charles was clearly not the same at the start of rd 2, he lost the grappling pretty soundly.
 
fortheo said:
My memory from before charles was rocked badly:

Islam lands in half guard, then charles re-gained guard, then threatens an armbar to triangle transition. Islam postures out, goes to half guard again and applies heavy shoulder pressure, charles creates space, uses deep half to transition to a leg attack which islam wants nothing to do with so he turns to pull out completely, allowing charles to come behind Islam on a body lock in order to get back to his feet. By the way, a similar leg attack sequence happened in the dariush fight, but dariush didn't fear it as much as islam did and defended and stayed on top, where as islam respected the threat a lot more and chose to disengage, thus giving charles space to get back up.

Later on islam gets a nice body lock in the clinch, lands a nice throw, stays heavy on charles with his chin under charles, smooshing charles against the cage. This is the best place for islam if he wants to grapple with charles. He gets some control time and soft gnp, but the round ends with islam eating an up kick and charles setting up a triangle.

Mind you I'm not saying charles won the grappling -- but it wasn't as black and white as some fans will make you believe.
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Charles did some stuff on the ground, but the idea that the grappling was anywhere close to “even” as is being suggested is pretty laughable. Even in your description of events, it seems on the surface even, except when you watch the actual fight Charle’s good moments last 15-20 seconds, Islam’s good moments on the ground last for 3-4 minutes. It’s not the same.
 
The idea Islam has better striking or was dominant is a joke.

Charles is a kill or be killed fighter; he was bound to finish or get finished, that's just his style. He goes after his opponent. He got caught when being super aggressive, it happens; it isn't like the many point fighters in the UFC would risk such moves. Will the same thing happen in the next fight? I don't think so. But we will see.

People hate on boring fights, yet still hate on someone who absolutely will not be in a boring fight even when it increases the chances he will be caught with something.

Charles also took that fight WAY too soon after three tough fights ina row against the top of the division. Islam was only fighting cans at the time.
 
Olives did fine on the ground, but was getting taken down and put in his back which in mma is going to lose you rounds most of time. I don’t think he’s very likely to catch Makhachev off his back and how long before that top pressure wears on him? He could potentially catch him in the transition but he cannot accept being on his back.

On the feet, his wildness was getting him caught repeatedly. He needs to take a more measured approach because he’s probably better technically. But that’s a big ask considering the style that has brought him to the dance which is aggressive pressure that puts himself in danger.

All this considered, Oliveira doesn’t have very straightforward paths to victory. He kinda needs to fight quite differently than he usually does, being more measured and not willing to stay on his back and look for subs. Hard to have a fighter do that with disicipline for 5 rounds when that’s not what they do. He can always catch something big but that’s not something to count on.
 
LetThemBleed said:
Might need a rewatch but the fundamental problem I saw that Charles will likely face again is that Islam was significantly better than him on the feet, I don't see Charles submitting him without doing damage on the feet first. Unless that was a particularly off night for Charles I can't see him making up the difference on the feet and expect a repeat of their first fight albeit perhaps finished by the 3rd or early 4th round.
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Neither of these guys are likely to sub the other unless they hurt the opponent first, which makes watching the striking aspect of their fights very tense as a fan.

moosaev said:
Charles did some stuff on the ground, but the idea that the grappling was anywhere close to “even” as is being suggested is pretty laughable. Even in your description of events, it seems on the surface even, except when you watch the actual fight Charle’s good moments last 15-20 seconds, Islam’s good moments on the ground last for 3-4 minutes. It’s not the same.
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It's because islam's good moments were strictly control based and he didn't get much offense going other than control and little gnp. Charles was actually attempting to make things happen whereas islam was simply trying to stifle charles from doing things -- which while not a stalemate in mma, isn't exactly noteworthy to me. You are right that he managed to get some control time and heavy top pressure, though, but he didn't try to do much offensive with it at all because he was so focused on control.
 
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Lee_ said:
Charles also took that fight WAY too soon after three tough fights ina row against the top of the division. Islam was only fighting cans at the time.
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people forget, and the trolls ignore, the fact that AD was Charles´ 4th Championship fight in 17 months. The guy had a title fight every 4,3 months in average and asked for a small delay to be able to recover properly but the UFC refused. He never had enough time to enjoy his title, he never had time to recover 100% and to find some motivation for a new training camp.
 
Dionysian said:
Means nothing in BJJ but, to be fair, in MMA the guy on top often IS winning. Because GNP/gravity is on their side.

Not always of course, but in general...
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I know that, which is why I knew people wouldn't agree lol. But from a grappling perspective, it was competitive before charles got rocked bad.
 
fortheo said:
Neither of these guys are likely to sub the other unless they hurt the opponent first, which makes watching the striking aspect of their fights very tense as a fan.



It's because islam's good moments were strictly control based and he didn't get much offense going other than control and little gnp. Charles was actually attempting to make things happen whereas islam was simply trying to stifle charles from doing things -- which while not a stalemate in mma, isn't exactly noteworthy to me. You are right that he managed to get some control time and heavy top pressure, though, but he didn't try to do much offensive with it at all because he was so focused on control.
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Agreed but given the disparity in striking the first time unless Charles had a particularly off night for some reason it's hard to envision anything but a fight resembling the first one come 294. Hope I'm wrong.
 
fortheo said:
Neither of these guys are likely to sub the other unless they hurt the opponent first, which makes watching the striking aspect of their fights very tense as a fan.



It's because islam's good moments were strictly control based and he didn't get much offense going other than control and little gnp. Charles was actually attempting to make things happen whereas islam was simply trying to stifle charles from doing things -- which while not a stalemate in mma, isn't exactly noteworthy to me. You are right that he managed to get some control time and heavy top pressure, though, but he didn't try to do much offensive with it at all because he was so focused on control.
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Dude, islam was jamming his elbow into Charles’ face for 2 minutes straight, that’s a little more than “control time”. You’re downplaying how physically draining and damaging Islam’s control was. There’s a reason Charles wanted no part of the grappling in Rd 2.
 
moosaev said:
Dude, islam was jamming his elbow into Charles’ face for 2 minutes straight, that’s a little more than “control time”. You’re downplaying how physically draining and damaging Islam’s control was. There’s a reason Charles wanted no part of the grappling in Rd 2.
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I never said charles was winning, so I don't know why you feel the need to come to Islam's defense. Control time weighs less in the scoring criteria now a days. You're not even supposed to be allowed to sit in someone's guard and just go body body head anymore.

Like I said, islam had his heavy top control and some gnp, but it was mostly stifling top control without seeking to advance position or even posture up and do real damage. Most of the GRAPPLING based offence came from charles, with exceptions to the throw, which was beautiful from islam.

All I said was that the grappling was competitive, but islam fans take offense even to that I guess.
 
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